A proper prison.

Adam

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Answered in the post you replied to: basic human rights and that's it. Beyond that, it depends entirely on what you want it to do. I think you were one of the poeple who said you wanted it to punish, not to rehabilitate. It needs to concentrate on both: ignoring either will result in failure.

I'm all for the hookers idea, provided said hookers are over 60, fat and ugly. First one saying "your ma" gets a 3-shag sentence (one shag suspended, if good behaveiour is observed).

So it seems we're on the same side really.

What I said regarding rehabilitation was not that it should be ignored. I simply feel the sentence is rehabilitation in itself. In other words if I thought "I'll just nick that tele there, I'll get away with it" and then I got caught and put away, merely being in prison should put me off ever reoffending. And if it didn't put someone off reoffending then I doubt very much if that person can actually be rehabilitated.

Lockstep

Mirror wrote: »

Fine. Some questions:

1. Prostitution is illegal in this country, should it be legalised for prisoners?

I was referring to America, though I am in favor of prostitution being legalised anyway.

2. Which prisoners get the privilage?

Whoever can pay for it. Although in cases of solitary confinement or history of aggravated rape these would be taken into account.

3. What happens when one of them get's beaten? Threatened with her life with a promise that if she squeals on the convict he has friends on the outside that will hunt her down?

Guards would be just outside, and I'd be in favor of a CCTV camera monitering the process.

4. What kind of social situation do you think hookers that are willing to degrade themselves like this would be in to begin with?

That's going into the question of prostitution in general. If a hooker doesn't want to have sex with a con, s/he doesn't have to. S/he has the choice in the matter.

5. What will it subsequently do for the hookers life?

Giving her/him cash?

6. Are you going to cavity search every hooker to prevent drug running via their orifices?

No more of a risk than in general visitation.

7. What happens when the convict runs out of cash two years in to a fifteen year sentence?

Well convicts are paid for their work. usually very small seeing as they have food and lodging but it would be their choice on whether it was to be spent on commissary food or cigarettes or a blowy from Miss Lafonda or Mr Jumbo.

mirror wrote:

I could go on...

Feel free.

Degsy

Mountjoy is like a high-class secondary school for scumbags.Most ordinary people woulde rightly find it terrifying,the noise,the smell,the cramped conditions,the proximity to cleary unbalanced people.The dickheads who make up 90% of the population there dont look at it like that.Almost all of them come from 5 areas within Dublin,they know each other from "the out",the know people by name,by reputation,by recomendation,the used to sort each other out with a bit of gear when they had money etc etc.They look on the situation(in the main) as being a holiday,get locked up,nothing to worry about for a while.Inside they get imediate access to methadone programmes,steady food,recreation(wher they can discuss criminal matters) and any amount of illegal drugs too.The screws by and large dont want to mess with junkies or scumbags whose friends on the outside know where they live.The scum run the wings,they can shoot up when they feel like it and the worst thing that can happen is a P19 charge which means visits behind glass for a while.A lot of these shiitheads have never made anything resembling profit from thier "crimes",they do it because its what they need to do to get more drugs or because thats what they feel like doing.An 18 year old having spent a year in the Joy comes out as a God to his peers,the hardman who bucked the system and did his time.This is the problem,in order to address crime and punishment we need to adress the sort of asshole who regards being locked up as a career move.Send them the length and breadth of the country where they cant associate with friends,cut all privilegs and make them wear dresses.Oh yeah and sterilise them.

Lockstep

To be fair, I know next to nothing about Irish prisons. Is the Joy that bad?

Man, horrible stuff.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Mirror wrote: »

So it seems we're on the same side really.

What I said regarding rehabilitation was not that it should be ignored. I simply feel the sentence is rehabilitation in itself. In other words if I thought "I'll just nick that tele there, I'll get away with it" and then I got caught and put away, merely being in prison should put me off ever reoffending. And if it didn't put someone off reoffending then I doubt very much if that person can actually be rehabilitated.

We do

The only prolem with the idea of prison alone being a dtrerrant is that, while it might work for you or me, I think a lot of the scumbags have probably seem a bit more harsh reality in there time so that they're desensitised to prion before they even get there, hence them not having a problem with it. See the first 4-5 lines of Degsy's post above.

Degsy

kickoutthejams wrote: »

To be fair, I know next to nothing about Irish prisons. Is the Joy that bad?

Man, horrible stuff.

If you've never been in trouble before and find yourself in there its hell on earth.Claustrophobic,stinking,terrible food,lunatics everywhere,overcrowding,non-stop noise,mice,stifling heat in summer,people shooting up next to you,fights over the slightest thing etc etc.Compared to an american prison its a paradise.No gang rapes,no(or not much) racial violence,brutality from staff,theft,extortion,long periods of solitary and not too many murders.In an american prison(even a state penitentiary) you can be killed over a bar of chocolate or get raped by 40 black guys because dont have any backup.

Lockstep

Yeah, that sounds horrendous, I moved here in August and read a few stories about Irish prisons from the papers (one case where a guy killed a smaller inmate and tried to get the other prisoners to eat his genitals or something)

awful stuff, but some of the stuff you hear about American prisons is jaw dropping. Even Oz was bad enough.

Degsy

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Yeah, that sounds horrendous, I moved here in August and read a few stories about Irish prisons from the papers (one case where a guy killed a smaller inmate and tried to get the other prisoners to eat his genitals or something)

awful stuff, but some of the stuff you hear about American prisons is jaw dropping. Even Oz was bad enough.

American prisons are animal factories.You get there and if you dont want to become a bent-over butt-fucck to a load of "boys in the hood" is you find the white gang and ask to join up.They'll give you a task to do,maybe selling contraband(6 years extra if you're caught) or maybe shank somebody(20 years extra).Its up to you,risk extra jail time or become a woman.Back in the old days,if you fought and stood up for yourself you'd probably be left alone,after that you needed to actually kill anybody who messed with you.now,because of gangs segregated along racial lines,if you're not a member of a clique with muscle you're finished.OZ isnt a bad description as it happens.

Lockstep

Degsy wrote: »

American prisons are animal factories.You get there and if you dont want to become a bent-over butt-fucck to a load of "boys in the hood" is you find the white gang and ask to join up.They'll give you a task to do,maybe selling contraband(6 years extra if you're caught) or maybe shank somebody(20 years extra).Its up to you,risk extra jail time or become a woman.Back in the old days,if you fought and stood up for yourself you'd probably be left alone,after that you needed to actually kill anybody who messed with you.now,because of gangs segregated along racial lines,if you're not a member of a clique with muscle you're finished.OZ isnt a bad description as it happens.

Might I ask for where you learned of this? I do the odd bit of personal research into criminal law and the american penal system and have a bit of an interest in it, this stuff is shocking, but something that I came across a fair few times.

ronbyrne2005

Jail for Terry.

Degsy

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Might I ask for where you learned of this? I do the odd bit of personal research into criminal law and the american penal system and have a bit of an interest in it, this stuff is shocking, but something that I came across a fair few times.

I had a "colourfull" youth;)

Lockstep

Degsy wrote: »

I had a "colourfull" youth;)

Ah yeah, interesting stuff all the same.

Cheers.

Dudess

Stekelly wrote: »

clap clap. good arguement. when your against something, just chuck in a negative buzz word.

Actually no. My point was, your statement below is ridiculously black and white:

Stekelly wrote: »

I dont care what hardship prisoners have to put up with inside. It's a prison.

Just because it's a prison doesn't mean there can be no limit to what the inmates endure - as well as the staff. Can't be too good for their psychological well-being either when some bully systematically strips prisoners of their dignity and makes them suffer needlessly - and very much seems to enjoy it.

pirelli

Terry wrote: »

USA JAIL - SOME INTERESTING READING
TO THOSE OF YOU NOT FAMILIAR WITH JOE ARPAIO, HE IS THE MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF
(ARIZONA)
Sheriff Joe was just re-elected as Sheriff in Maricopa County , Arizona

I for one support this man and his ways.
See pdf for pics.

The Segment on Joe Arpaio starts at 6.30min/sec. He runs one of the few prisons that still use a controversial restraint chair which has resulted in several deaths. The prison he runs is will see someone arrested for J walking possibly being killed.

Degsy

Dudess wrote: »

Actually no. My point was, your statement below is ridiculously black and white:

Just because it's a prison doesn't mean there can be no limit to what the inmates endure - as well as the staff. Can't be too good for their psychological well-being either when some bully systematically strips prisoners of their dignity and makes them suffer needlessly - and very much seems to enjoy it.

Maximum security facilities in america are designed to rob the inmatesUTTERLY of any dignity they may have.This is done through constant searches,dehumanising rituals and denial of any level of humanity.Fine you say,they deserve it.BUT..it only serves to make the inmates more inhumane,it strips them of whatever humanity the once had and turns them robustly against the system,regardless of how minor the offence was originally.Check out the Bravo documentary Brits Behind Bars..

Adam

Methinks Bravo is being relied on too heavily. I mean come on. It's Bravo...

Lockstep

Only going on stuff I've read here, but Degsy has a point.

Can;t remember the names of most of the books I've read on it but ones such as Fish by TJ Parsell, Behind Bars by Jefrey Ian Ross and Stephen C Richards and Life in Prison by Stanley Williams seem to point out the same things.

javaboy

Why not use anaesthesia to induce a (ideally dreamless) sleep in inmates? Maybe put them to sleep for every 2 days out of three. On the waking day they can get a little exercise to stop muscular atrophy. They would be drip fed on the sleep days.

Ideally what I'd like to see is some kind of stasis/cryogenic process thing but one that allows you to age. Then a 7 year prison sentence would literally be taking 7 years of your life.

Adam

Oh I don't doubt Degsey's word. I do doubt Bravo though.

Honestly, I don't think there's any one catchall solution to the prison dilemma. If it were me, it would be a strict regime of early to rise, early to bed, and 90% of time outside their individual cells should be dedicated to something productive/constructive towards the community they are meant to be a part of, and will return to some day. No luxuries, consoles/cable/hookers etc. maybe some radio or tv news to keep them tied into activity in the outside world.

But not pleasant. Never pleasant.

Lockstep

Mirror wrote: »

Oh I don't doubt Degsey's word. I do doubt Bravo though.

Honestly, I don't think there's any one catchall solution to the prison dilemma. If it were me, it would be a strict regime of early to rise, early to bed, and 90% of time outside their individual cells should be dedicated to something productive/constructive towards the community they are meant to be a part of, and will return to some day. No luxuries, consoles/cable/hookers etc. maybe some radio or tv news to keep them tied into activity in the outside world.

But not pleasant. Never pleasant.

I agree, except for the no hookers bit.

Although some form of solitary would be needed to stop violators of the system who can't be let outside. Although Javaboys method is an excellent one, although ethical questions come into play.

Adam

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I agree, except for the no hookers bit.

Although some form of solitary would be needed to stop violators of the system who can't be let outside. Although Javaboys method is an excellent one, although ethical questions come into play.

All this talk of hookers... I think you're planning to get locked up some day!

Lockstep

No, I just think it'd lead to calmer prisoners. Methinks sex is something to encourage there, especially conjugals.

I'd also be in favor of marijauna in prisons.


I think it was Charles Bronson (the prisoner, not the movie star) who said that the screws preferred cons on pot as it meant they were calm and better than hyper cons bouncing off walls.

bleg

Dudess wrote: »

Exactly. I read all this talk of "Oh de 'Joy is like a hotel" etc... Eh, it isn't. It's a scary as **** place to be.

good

javaboy

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Although Javaboys method is an excellent one, although ethical questions come into play.

Out of interest, if it was theoretically possible to stick a prisoner in stasis for the duration of their sentence and they would still get older, what would the ethical questions be?

One I can think of is not being able to appeal or better yourself in any way while in prison.

Any other major ones?

javaboy

kickoutthejams wrote: »

No, I just think it'd lead to calmer prisoners. Methinks sex is something to encourage there, especially conjugals.

I'd also be in favor of marijauna in prisons.


I think it was Charles Bronson (the prisoner, not the movie star) who said that the screws preferred cons on pot as it meant they were calm and better than hyper cons bouncing off walls.

Neither of them were born Charles Bronson fwiw.

Lockstep

Ethical questions: it's basically the prison service achknowledging that they are unable to rehabilitate the prisoners. Also means they are lying around for 2 days outta three, when they come out they'll be good for little.

Side note: would lead to a cut in guards, less are needed so could really those American towns that rely on the prison for employment.

Lockstep

javaboy wrote: »

Neither of them were born Charles Bronson fwiw.

Ok, Charlie Bronson, or Michael Gordon Peterson.
I would imagine people would know him better as Charlie Bronson seeing as that's the name printed as the author.

Degsy

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Ok, Charlie Bronson, or Michael Gordon Peterson.
I would imagine people would know him better as Charlie Bronson seeing as that's the name printed as the author.

He's a fool.He wasnt out of prison ten minutes and he started kidnapping people.He turned a two year robbery sentence into a life senetnce and he blames the prison service.I blame the stupid bastards who read his books,decide they can live vicariuosly through this "upstanding criminal" and petiion thehome office for his release.Meanwhile he's selling books n stuff based on his moniker as being "the hardest con in britain".If he shut his gob and people who know nothing stopped bigging him up,he'd been out years ago.The home office are never going to release somebody because he's totally mad but "at least he isnt a paedophile"

Lockstep

Degsy wrote: »

He's a fool.He wasnt out of prison ten minutes and he started kidnapping people.He turned a two year robbery sentence into a life senetnce and he blames the prison service.I blame the stupid bastards who read his books,decide they can live vicariuosly through this "upstanding criminal" and petiion thehome office for his release.Meanwhile he's selling books n stuff based on his moniker as being "the hardest con in britain".If he shut his gob and people who know nothing stopped bigging him up,he'd been out years ago.The home office are never going to release somebody because he's totally mad but "at least he isnt a paedophile"

Woah, wasn't bigging him up at all. I've only read one of his books (as it described various British prisons) and didn;t bother reading the backround to his cases.

Was just referring to his quote on weed in prisons.

Degsy

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Woah, wasn't bigging him up at all. I've only read one of his books (as it described various British prisons) and didn;t bother reading the backround to his cases.

Was just referring to his quote on weed in prisons.

Dats cool.A lot of people read books by halfwits(like CB),believe everything they read and then start demanding his release.The worst thing they could do..the home office in the UK doesnt want to make folk heroes out of lowlifes so they'll keep them in longer.