Home Alone

danash

Looking for some opinions on how to deal with my separated wife who has begun leaving my children 'home alone' if they are ill or she has some problems.

We are separated 3 years and have an agreement on access and custody of the children. This has not been rubberstamped by the courts. I travel quite a bit with my job so my wife has the children more. I offer my family as an option whenver I am away and they assist wherever possible. My wife also works. Our daughter was ill last week and my wife left her at home alone - she is 11 - while she went to work. I am not happy about this at all and see it as some form of child neglect. My wife terms it a 'parental call' to justify her actions. She refuses to initiate any contact with my family to assist her while I am away. In this instance I was 8 hours behind in time zones and got no call to ask for assistance.

This is part of a pattern of behaviour lately whereby she takes unilateral decisions on our children's care deeming it her responsibility while the children are with her. Our separation agreement explicitly states we are jointly responsible for the pastoral care and upbringing of our children.

So - having failed to resolve it with her directly - should I

Forget about it - maybe a one off

Go to the Health Board ?

Go legal ?

DinoBot

danash wrote: »

Our daughter was ill last week and my wife left her at home alone - she is 11 - while she went to work. I am not happy about this at all and see it as some form of child neglect. My wife terms it a 'parental call' to justify her actions.

Okay, so 11 "seems" young to be left home alone sick BUT I have an 11 yr old and I could see myself leaving him home if he wasnt that unwell. Does your wife work far away ?
As far as saying its her 'parental call', I think she is 100% correct there.

danash wrote: »

This is part of a pattern of behaviour lately whereby she takes unilateral decisions on our children's care deeming it her responsibility while the children are with her. Our separation agreement explicitly states we are jointly responsible for the pastoral care and upbringing of our children.

So - having failed to resolve it with her directly - should I

Forget about it - maybe a one off

Go to the Health Board ?

Go legal ?

eh??? Should she not take 100% responsibility of the children while in her care ? Who else should be responsible ?? You said you were unreachable and she doesn't like to contact your family when your not available.

If you feel you should have been involved in the decision then you should have left in place a solution which can be used by her when you are not available. Did you ?

So, given the same situation, what would you have done ?
How did you try to resolve it ?

danash

DinoBot wrote: »

Okay, so 11 "seems" young to be left home alone sick BUT I have an 11 yr old and I could see myself leaving him home if he wasnt that unwell. Does your wife work far away ?
As far as saying its her 'parental call', I think she is 100% correct there.



eh??? Should she not take 100% responsibility of the children while in her care ? Who else should be responsible ?? You said you were unreachable and she doesn't like to contact your family when your not available.

If you feel you should have been involved in the decision then you should have left in place a solution which can be used by her when you are not available. Did you ?

So, given the same situation, what would you have done ?
How did you try to resolve it ?

She does work close by and did call in - it makes no difference in my opinion - making a 'parental call' means making the rght call. This was in my opinion a bad call. Just because you have the right doesn't mean you are right.

She had the long standing option of contacting my family who also live nearby and would have taken care of my daughter. She chose not to call them for her own reasons. She had a solution and chose not to take it and put my daughter in danger.


What would I have done ? taken the day off work and cared for my sick child. No job is more important than that.


Let me reiterate - making a 'parental call' requires you to be as right as possible as much as possible. Ask Kate McCann.

Kildrought

Health board won't want to know.

Assuming your child is otherwise well cared for/fed/educated etc., you're wasting your time and money attempting to pursue a legal remedy.

she takes unilateral decisions on our children's care deeming it her responsibility while the children are with her.

That strikes me as being perfectly sensible; what else do you expect?

Our separation agreement explicitly states we are jointly responsible for the pastoral care and upbringing of our children.

Eh, yeah....so does everyone elses....its a standard clause.

Here's the question though.... supposing (Heaven forbid) your child had an accident or contracted something that required hospital visits/ tests/ consultations or had a problem at school & it needed a meeting with the principal - would your former wife contact you? Does she ensure you are involved in these things? Do you know about school concerts/ hockey matches /parent teacher meetings?

If the answer is yes to most or all of those questions, then I would suggest you are, by and large, managing ok as parents.... taking the high ground on this relatively minor issue might only serve to damage that relationship.

DinoBot

danash wrote: »

She does work close by and did call in - it makes no difference in my opinion - making a 'parental call' means making the rght call. This was in my opinion a bad call. Just because you have the right doesn't mean you are right.

She had the long standing option of contacting my family who also live nearby and would have taken care of my daughter. She chose not to call them for her own reasons. She had a solution and chose not to take it and put my daughter in danger.

What would I have done ? taken the day off work and cared for my sick child. No job is more important than that.

You already said she doesn't like to use your family if your not around, so thats not a solution she would use. I think you need to talk it out and come up with solutions that work and not ones you think she should use.

I dont mean to be getting on your case here but I do think you are overreacting a bit.

But look, if you really feel your child was at risk, next time you are planning to be away please ensure you have a solution in place in case she gets sick and your wife cant take time off work.

littlebitdull

With a child that is old enought to manage by themselves for a short period of time, you have to make a judgement call. Your wife was there on the spot and she made her decision on the fact available to her.

You say yourself she was not far away and did in fact call in. This is a child of 11 you are talking about. Your wife - who was the parent in charge at the time - could see exactly how ill this child was.

Compairing leaving an 11 year old home alone to leaving three children under four is nonsense, so there is no need to relate these things to the McCanns as it its a totally different situation.

What your actually saying is that unless your ex wife makes exactly the same decision as you then it is the wrong one.

She knew exactly how ill the child was, she had to make her decision herself, and now you have to deal with that.

danash

Maybe I am the one on planet 9 if you all seem to think it is OK to leave an 11 year old child to fend for herself. I'd like to see your opinions if anything had happened to her while she was alone. Maybe the world has changed while I was away on business.

Maybe I'm old fashioned to think that parents are there to care for their children not to abandon them.


As for the solution while I am away - my wife is aware of the contingencies available to her - through sheer spite for my family she refuses to use them - unless she wants to go out on a social night - it seems to be ok then. On this same business trip I arranged from the US for my father and sister to take the children while she went out on the Saturday night. The system I have in place works for her when she wants it to.

To kildrought - I am an active parent in my children's lives and expect to be involved in every aspect of their lives - they are not 'standard clauses' in my separation agreement. My wife sees herself as a deserted wife ( which she is not ) and one with the absolute right to make decisions on my childrens lives without consulting me. we separated because we could not live together - I never left my children. Are you suggesting it is good for children to have two parents pursue totally different value systems and behaviours just because they are separated ?

As I said maybe I am old fashioned to expect the mother of my children to actually mother them.

Kildrought

You're getting 2 things mixed up.... if you want to have a debate or discussion about parenting talk to your former wife. If you've already made your feelings known, let it go.

Joint custody/responsibility/pastoral care is pretty standard in most JS's/ Separation agreements - the implementation of them is down to the maturity and responsibility of the parents involved.

You posted here to know what you could do about it... not very much is the simple answer. And frankly I strongly suspect that any attempt to do so via Social workers/ legal would be seen as a desire to control your former wife.

danash

I have made my feelings known - however my wife is prepared to continue to leave my children home alone - are you saying I have to accept that ? Where is my right as a parent in this ? If I disagree with that practice you are saying that I have absolutely no business interfering with her decision and practice ? I should stand idly by while my children are, in my opinion, placed in dangerous situations?

If something goes wrong I have to accept that she made a 'parental call'

Some people think it is ok to rob banks - do we allow them to do as they please because it is 'their call' ? On what basis does society set norms for behaviour ?

I asked for opinions - and thank you. I am very surprised however that leaving children home alone at the discretion of a parent is seen as OK.

As for control of my wife - if she was smoking crack in front of my children and I called the police - would I be a 'control freak' or a good parent ?

Confused.

DinoBot

I can see where your coming from but its not a good place IMO.

Do you really think it is like you found your wife smoking crack ?

If it makes you feel better contact the health board or police and see what type of response you get on this. I think you will find it IS you on planet 9.

Loopy

I am mother and would not leave an 11 year old child who was sick, at home alone.

If I could not get the time off work I would ensure somebody was in the house with the child.

Op, I don't think your over-reacting at all.

Kildrought

You're confused because you think you have a right to dictate what happens in every case - you don't.

Your former wife is quite correct in that as a parent you have to make decisions based on what you feel to be the best course of action at the time.

You may or may not agree with that decision; however on a scale of 1 to 10, leaving an 11 yr old at home is nowhere near at the top end of parental neglect but you are trying to make it so.

Let it go; you need to get to a better place or your relationship with your child is going to be impacted and I don't get the impression you want that to happen.

DinoBot

looptheloop wrote: »

I am mother and would not leave an 11 year old child who was sick, at home alone.

If I could not get the time off work I would ensure somebody was in the house with the child.

Op, I don't think your over-reacting at all.

out of interest, how old is your child ?

Quality

What age is acceptable for a child to be left unsupervised in the family home, Is there any legal guidelines on this?

Trinity

I wouldnt like to leave my son alone particularly if he was sick, thats the time i would want to be with him even more.

In relation to the law, i am not sure, i dont think its set in stone, although funny enough if anything happened (god forbid) you can be sure there would be consequences. Thats when social services etc would take an interest.

I think you have every right to have a say. If the tables were turned and it was a woman saying her husband was leaving their sick kids alone while he was having them, i think it would be a different story.

Particularly when she has options i.e. your families help or take the day off work. I would have no hesitation putting my kids before my job.

I would talk to her again and if she refuses to budge i would mention getting legal advice.

Just reread your posts, some people agree with leaving an 11 yr old on their own despite the fact that there are alternatives. While everyone has their opinion, YOU are their father, and if you dont like them being left alone then thats the only opinion that counts. You have every right to have a say about something like this. Its a bit more serious an issue as to whether for example she wants to get her ears pierced.

danash

Kildrought wrote: »

You're confused because you think you have a right to dictate what happens in every case - you don't.

Your former wife is quite correct in that as a parent you have to make decisions based on what you feel to be the best course of action at the time.

You may or may not agree with that decision; however on a scale of 1 to 10, leaving an 11 yr old at home is nowhere near at the top end of parental neglect but you are trying to make it so.

Let it go; you need to get to a better place or your relationship with your child is going to be impacted and I don't get the impression you want that to happen.

On what basis/scale/norm are you deciding that leaving a child of 11 home alone is 'nowhere near the top end of parental neglect' and why do you assume your opinion on the matter is the correct one ?

By grading your opinion of the act on any scale of child neglect merely proves it for what it is - in my opinion - child neglect. How can you decide that her action was 'correct' when she had valid options available to her that she simply refused to take ? She intentionally avoided a circumstance where the child could be cared for ( by my family ) and put my child in danger. I am supposed to be happy with that ?

How is your opinion more correct than mine - the father of the child ?



I go back to my original assertion - being a parent requires you to make the right or best call - in this case she didnt and has laid down a marker as to her future behaviour. I am supposed to sit idly by and wait for them to come to me for my access ? I am their father even when they are not with me.

Trinity

danash wrote: »

On what basis/scale/norm are you deciding that leaving a child of 11 home alone is 'nowhere near the top end of parental neglect' and why do you assume your opinion on the matter is the correct one ?

By grading your opinion of the act on any scale of child neglect merely proves it for what it is - in my opinion - child neglect. How can you decide that her action was 'correct' when she had valid options available to her that she simply refused to take ? She intentionally avoided a circumstance where the child could be cared for ( by my family ) and put my child in danger. I am supposed to be happy with that ?

How is your opinion more correct than mine - the father of the child ?



I go back to my original assertion - being a parent requires you to make the right or best call - in this case she didnt and has laid down a marker as to her future behaviour. I am supposed to sit idly by and wait for them to come to me for my access ? I am their father even when they are not with me.

If there was a clapping smiley i would use it. Your opinion is valid regardless of whether or not you are seperated from your wife. If you were still married and had a difference of opinion with your wife about it or as i said a woman complaining about her ex husband I do believe this thread would have went in a different direction.

Loopy

DinoBot wrote: »

out of interest, how old is your child ?

My girls are 7 and 1.5 yrs.

When we were kids, my siblings and I were left alone a lot (sick or not). My folks separated when we were very young and my Dad raised us.

It's not a nice feeling to be left alone as a kid, especially when your ill.

danash

DinoBot wrote: »

I can see where your coming from but its not a good place IMO.

Do you really think it is like you found your wife smoking crack ?

If it makes you feel better contact the health board or police and see what type of response you get on this. I think you will find it IS you on planet 9.

Of course it is not like smoking crack - was just wondering however where along the line it would be seen as a valid intervention. When would you intervene in the actions of a former spouse ? Home Alone ? Beatings, Abuse, Smoking Crack ? Sexual Abuse ? Am not suggesting this is the progression but neglect is neglect.

If the HSE and the Police take no action and something happens then we would see the usual Irish way of dealing with responsibility and accountability.

DinoBot

OP,

How did your daughter feel about it ?

danash

DinoBot wrote: »

OP,

How did your daughter feel about it ?

Like any 11 year old her main focus was on getting a day off school....should I have taken her opinion as more valid than my own as well ?

littlebug

I'm not exactly qualified to give my opinion on this as my kids are much smaller but no harm in giving my gut feelings I suppose?

The idea of an 11 year old at home on her own, particularly when she is sick, does make me feel uncomfortable but there are a lot of unknowns.
How sick... a bit sick but well enough to get herself drinks etc.

How close was her mother and how often did she check in with her?
Was the child able to call her whenever she wanted?
Doors locked and instructions not to answer it?
If the child needed her mother home how long would it take her to get there?

I suspect your wife was left in a bit of a pickle when she got up and realised the child was sick ie maybe it was too short notice to get someone to cover for her in work without causing a rumpus and made, as you call it, a parenting decision, on the spur of the moment. Maybe not the best parenting decision but that's the decision that was made and it was made within what she viewed as her coping strategies at that time. Maybe she didn't want to call the in laws that early in the morning or be dependent on them. Maybe she knows she didn't make the best choice but doesn't want to admit it to her separated husband who is threatening legal action.

Whatever the reasons.. what's done is done and I don't think going in all guns blazing and threatening her with social services will solve anything and will only make family relations worse. Maybe I'm naive but wouldn't putting a plan of action in place for when/ if it happens again be the best way to go? By that I mean a joint plan of action that suits you both. Is calm joint discussion and decision making out of the question?
I mean you telling her that you feel uncomfortable with your daughter being left alone and tell her why. Maybe she would give a better explanation of why she made the decision she made if she isn't feeling attacked and maybe progress could be made in terms of future fallback plans.

All of that said.. I don't have an 11 year old so I can't judge. I do see a neighbours 11 year old up and down to the shop by herself frequently so why not in a locked house with mom on close standby See I can't answer that.... a lot depends on the maturity of the child and the specific circumstances I guess.

danash

littlebug wrote: »

Maybe I'm naive but wouldn't putting a plan of action in place for when/ if it happens again be the best way to go? By that I mean a joint plan of action that suits you both. Is calm joint discussion and decision making out of the question?
I mean you telling her that you feel uncomfortable with your daughter being left alone and tell her why. Maybe she would give a better explanation of why she made the decision she made if she isn't feeling attacked and maybe progress could be made in terms of future fallback plans. .

Littlebug - some sense at last......

I would love to agree a plan of action but after three years of separation my wife is now taking the view that while the children are with her she is the exclusive carer and I have absolutely no input to what she decides as a 'parental call'. She refuses to talk to me and only communicates by text or reluctantly by email.

She is now suggesting that in September my daughter ( 12 in October) will be mature enough to look after herself and her 9 year old brother after school. She fully believes this is a valid 'parental call' and has rejected my overtures in securing adequate child care ( they are currently in an after school club )

My main concern is her unilateral decision making on matters that affect the safety of my children. She justifies this in her mind by saying she is not interested in what I do with the children on my time.

I refuse to accept that I must go along with her decisions - just because she makes them. I am nore than prepared to discuss this - am not trying to impose my view of things - merely come to an agreement.

Kildrought

Neither the HSE nor the local Health Board nor the Gardai will entertain you for a minute. Your Solictor will advise you in 30 seconds flat that you are wasting your time attempting to obtain a legal remedy.

On what basis/scale/norm are you deciding ....

See paragraph above.

The only way this situation can change is by negotiation between the two of you; and I don't get the impression (but could be wrong) that either of you find that easy to do.

Carrigart Exile

Children? Do you have more than the 11 year old?

Carrigart Exile

Kildrought wrote: »

Neither the HSE nor the local Health Board nor the Gardai will entertain you for a minute. Your Solictor will advise you in 30 seconds flat that you are wasting your time attempting to obtain a legal remedy.

See paragraph above.

The only way this situation can change is by negotiation between the two of you; and I don't get the impression (but could be wrong) that either of you find that easy to do.

Not entirley true Kildrought, child protection agencies might indeed have something to say about it. I suspect much of the support for the ex-wife's actions is coming from people who have behaved in a similar manner. It would be interesting to hear people's reaction had it been the wife complaining that he leaves his 11 year old in the house for 4 hours whilst he goes for a pint.

OP, have you spoken to your child about how she feels?

DinoBot

danash wrote: »

Like any 11 year old her main focus was on getting a day off school....should I have taken her opinion as more valid than my own as well ?

No, I ask because a lot of it depends on the maturity of your child as littlebug also said. Ive three kids and they are all different, some kids would be happy to be in the house on their on at 11 but some would not.

If you feel your daughter is not mature enough to be left after school why don't you organise after school care for the kids ?

littlebug

danash wrote: »

Littlebug - some sense at last......

I would love to agree a plan of action but after three years of separation my wife is now taking the view that while the children are with her she is the exclusive carer and I have absolutely no input to what she decides as a 'parental call'. She refuses to talk to me and only communicates by text or reluctantly by email.

She is now suggesting that in September my daughter ( 12 in October) will be mature enough to look after herself and her 9 year old brother after school. She fully believes this is a valid 'parental call' and has rejected my overtures in securing adequate child care ( they are currently in an after school club )

My main concern is her unilateral decision making on matters that affect the safety of my children. She justifies this in her mind by saying she is not interested in what I do with the children on my time.

I refuse to accept that I must go along with her decisions - just because she makes them. I am nore than prepared to discuss this - am not trying to impose my view of things - merely come to an agreement.

Ahhh that explains your reactions a little better . Can I refer you back to a thread that was on here last year. The situation was similar but a bit more extreme.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055119560

I don't think a 12 year old should have sole responsibility for a 9 year old on a daily basis even if it is only for a couple of hours. Half an hour here and there ok maybe but everyday? No matter how sensible or mature the child is I don't think it's fair to put that responsibility on her. I don't know what the solution is for you other than to keep trying to open up dialogue on the subject.Could you point her in the direction of that thread so she could see what the potential pitfalls are? (but get this one deleted first!:p)

danash

Carrigart Exile wrote: »

Not entirley true Kildrought, child protection agencies might indeed have something to say about it. I suspect much of the support for the ex-wife's actions is coming from people who have behaved in a similar manner. It would be interesting to hear people's reaction had it been the wife complaining that he leaves his 11 year old in the house for 4 hours whilst he goes for a pint.

OP, have you spoken to your child about how she feels?

Kildrought - I have seen your posts on other sites and normally I see a lot of sense in what you post - however I cant see how you think that the authorities would have no interest in a report of child neglect ( which is how I see it ). I would love to see the senior manager in any institution that hears about his department's refusal to act when someone like Joe Duffy got on the case. In light of all of the recent cases of parents actions when depressed I think the social services pay a little more attention to a reported case of child neglect.

I agree with you however that the main solution is discussion with my wife but I rarely get more than shouting down the phone (if she answers) and maybe one line of text.


I also agree with Carraigart that on boards like this there is never much sympathy when a father actually seems to take an active interest in parenting his children - the stereotype seeming to be that all separated fathers cant be bothered with their chldren's upbringing. The fact that a woman can be seen to be anything less than the Virgin Mary does seem to be hard for some people to accept.

My daughter is what I would term a 'young' 11 year old although she looks older than her 11 years so I do not see here as capable of looking after herself let alone a 9 year brother as well. I have asked her how she felt about being left alone and her answer was 'alright' - she was more interested in the day off as mentioned above.

I am actively looking for alternative childcare as the club they are in currently is closing next school term. This is where she has proposed the home alone solution.

danash

littlebug wrote: »

Ahhh that explains your reactions a little better . Can I refer you back to a thread that was on here last year. The situation was similar but a bit more extreme.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055119560

Very interesting - strange that people took such views when a father suggested leaving his children home alone.

Kildrought

child protection agencies might indeed have something to say about it

And the most that they could say is that leaving an 11 year old child alone for a day might not be considered best practice; neither is feeding artificial milk to a baby, slapping children or serving deep fried food 3 times a week - but all those things happen in families and none of them are considered actionable.

In regards to your discussions with your former wife; can I leave you with this thought, if something isn't working you need to change the way you do it.