Home Alone

SarahMc

Pick your battles:

11 year old alone once, whilst mam worked and checked in regularly - not brilliant parenting, but not worth rocking the boat over, let it go.

No after school care come September, for 12 and 9 year old is much dodgier ground. Is money a problem for her in terms of after-school care?

danash

SarahMc wrote: »

Pick your battles:

11 year old alone once, whilst mam worked and checked in regularly - not brilliant parenting, but not worth rocking the boat over, let it go.

No after school care come September, for 12 and 9 year old is much dodgier ground. Is money a problem for her in terms of after-school care?

Sarah,

Money is not an issue - the real crux is having my wife understand that I have an opinion and a say on the issue....whatever I say is automatically wrong or not relevant if the children are in her care

Kildrought...Changing things requires both parties to accept there is an issue. We agreed a separation agreement and parenting plan 3 years ago but these recent events have brought about the current impasse. I have suggested Mediation but she refuses, hence I have to think of the approaches in the OP.

TequilaMockingBird

You are asking for opinions, but I don't think you really want them, you want us all to scream "bad Mother" and " get the authorities in asap". You want to argue the toss with people here, because you can't argue/speak with your ex.

May I also say, because you don't believe its the right "call" doesn't mean its not her "right" call.


I would recommend a solicitor, discuss it with them.

Carrigart Exile

Kildrought wrote: »

And the most that they could say is that leaving an 11 year old child alone for a day might not be considered best practice; neither is feeding artificial milk to a baby, slapping children or serving deep fried food 3 times a week - but all those things happen in families and none of them are considered actionable.

In regards to your discussions with your former wife; can I leave you with this thought, if something isn't working you need to change the way you do it.

I am sorry you are wrong on this and now that the 11 year old is to be in charge of the 9 year old that is illegal.

Carrigart Exile

sueme wrote: »

You are asking for opinions, but I don't think you really want them, you want us all to scream "bad Mother" and " get the authorities in asap". You want to argue the toss with people here, because you can't argue/speak with your ex.

May I also say, because you don't believe its the right "call" doesn't mean its not her "right" call.


I would recommend a solicitor, discuss it with them.

can I scream it for him, 'Bad Mother'. If she now wants an 11 year old to have child care responsibility for a 9 year old that is illegal

DinoBot

danash wrote: »

Sarah,

Money is not an issue - the real crux is having my wife understand that I have an opinion and a say on the issue....whatever I say is automatically wrong or not relevant if the children are in her care

Kildrought...Changing things requires both parties to accept there is an issue. We agreed a separation agreement and parenting plan 3 years ago but these recent events have brought about the current impasse. I have suggested Mediation but she refuses, hence I have to think of the approaches in the OP.

I think leaving the 12 year old to have sole responsibility for a 9 year old is not a good plan. Its one think leaving your daughter for a day at home and check up on her but its a whole different ballgame to be left for extended time alone.
I think how you approach it is important. If money is not the issue, why is your ex so unwilling to have childcare ?

Kildrought

I am sorry you are wrong on this

No, I'm not; there is no legal minimum age in this country at which a child can be left alone. In and of itself it is not an offence.

and now that the 11 year old is to be in charge of the 9 year old that is illegal

This hasn't happened; the 11 yr old child was left home for 1 day - that was the OP.

danash

sueme wrote: »

You are asking for opinions, but I don't think you really want them, you want us all to scream "bad Mother" and " get the authorities in asap". You want to argue the toss with people here, because you can't argue/speak with your ex.

May I also say, because you don't believe its the right "call" doesn't mean its not her "right" call.


I would recommend a solicitor, discuss it with them.

I'm sorry if you got that impression - the simple fact is that I don't believe it is correct to leave an 11 year old home alone - if other people seem to condone that view then I will argue with them for holding that opinion. I have no desire to label my wife a bad mother - however I do thnk what she has done - and hopes to do next school term is a bad thing - bad for my children and bad for me.

danash

Kildrought wrote: »

No, I'm not; there is no legal minimum age in this country at which a child can be left alone. In and of itself it is not an offence.

This hasn't happened; the 11 yr old child was left home for 1 day - that was the OP.

K - you take a very simplistic view - if no offence exists it must be OK.

One small accident for the child and an offence then exists.....so everyone must be ok to leave their child alone and just hope nothing happens.


I dont know if you are a parent but that certainly is not good enough for me as a parent.

TequilaMockingBird

danash wrote: »

the simple fact is that I don't believe it is correct to leave an 11 year old home alone

I don't think its correct either.

I think you need to find a way to be able to communicate with your wife, without getting her back up. To be honest, in my opinion, your posts here suggest you wouldn't be the easist man to discuss a difference of opinion with.

So the way I see it is, we have a man who finds it difficult to accept other opinions, and a woman who is doing the wrong thing, but is fed up listening to you telling her what to do.

Both of you are making mistakes here.

No authority is going to listen to you, they have bigger fish to fry. You have to sort this out between yourselves.

I would suggest a carefully worded e-mail, simply saying that you are really worried about the plans for September, that you have opened a special account where there will xxx amount every month to pay for after school care, and that hopefully both of you could be happy with that.

I don't mean to offend you, but its the way I see it from your posts. Good luck to all four of you.

Kildrought

K - you take a very simplistic view

I'm presenting the same view you will get if you contact any authority on the subject.

- if no offence exists it must be OK.

that's not what I said - you asked what official course of action you could take in regards to the child being left home for the day; I replied to that question.

.....so everyone must be ok to leave their child alone and just hope nothing happens.

Don't know how you came to this conclusion, suggest you re-read the posts on this thread.

I dont know if you are a parent

My signature might give you a clue!

danash

sueme wrote: »

I don't think its correct either.

I think you need to find a way to be able to communicate with your wife, without getting her back up. To be honest, in my opinion, your posts here suggest you wouldn't be the easist man to discuss a difference of opinion with.

So the way I see it is, we have a man who finds it difficult to accept other opinions, and a woman who is doing the wrong thing, but is fed up listening to you telling her what to do.

.

I would dearly love to reach a compromise on this - I have three years of documented emails in my attempts to reach compromises on parenting conflicts. All to no avail. As they say you can bring a horse to water......

My wife seems genetically programmed to resist whatever I say - whether it has merit or nor - purely because I say it. That is hardly the basis for an adult discussion. Hence her policy of taking unilateral decisions when the children are in her care and ignoring any activity on my time. The children are clever enough to spot this and regularly play us off against each other knowing it will lead to a possibly better outcome for them rather than two parents agreeing on a policy.

Sad but true......

Carrigart Exile

Kildrought wrote: »

No, I'm not; there is no legal minimum age in this country at which a child can be left alone. In and of itself it is not an offence.

This hasn't happened; the 11 yr old child was left home for 1 day - that was the OP.

If the 11/12 year old is left alone in charge of a younger child it is illegal

littlebug

Kildrought.. not being cheeky but have you missed the part where the OP says his wife plans to leave the 12 year old in charge of the 9 year old after school from next September on or do you really not think it is an issue

If I had a 9 year old I would not leave him to be minded everyday after school even for just a couple of hours by a (just turned) 12 year old and I wouldn't want my 12 year old to face the reponsibility on a daily basis of looking after a 9 year old. I don't think I'm unusual there am I

SarahMc... do you know the legalities here (you usually do:p)

Nevyn

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2005/11/11/story727405466.asp

Parents risk charges over home-alone children

By Evelyn Ring
PARENTS who leave children at home alone without adequate back-up risk being charged with child neglect, the ISPCC warned yesterday.Caroline O’Sullivan, the ISPCC’s director of services, said, while it did not want to frighten parents whose children were too old for supervised childcare, they needed to be aware that they must do everything to ensure their children were safe.

She said, judging by the calls to Childline, children left home alone, particularly at night, was a modern problem. She said the service would consider highlighting the number of those calls in the future.

“We do understand that working parents are under additional stress when their child aged 12 or older does not want to remain in childcare or the service no longer caters for their child’s age group,” she said.

However, she warned if it is found that a child is left alone without someone older, such as an older sibling, cousin or neighbour, keeping a watchful eye on them then the parents could face a negligence charge because it is a criminal offence.

Ms O’Sullivan said there was no doubt that children were being left home alone. Callers to the ISPCC’s Childline service suggested it was happening mostly at night.

“There are occasions when children will ring Childline and tell us that they are left home alone. They are worried and scared and they might be hearing noises around the house and they just want to speak to somebody,” she said. Such children would range in age from 11 to 16.

“Young people can sometimes be too embarrassed to tell their parents that they are afraid when they are at home alone. They want to seem mature and show their parents that the can cope.”

Ms O’Sullivan said there was no legal age limit for children who may be left alone but the ISPCC believes it should be 16. “It is a difficult issue because if a child at home alone becomes harmed in some way the parent can end up in court for neglecting the child,” she said. “We feel that a young person aged 16 is mentally and emotionally mature to deal with any issue that arises when they are on their own.”

While a lot of parents would argue that some 12 year olds were more mature than a lot of 17 year olds, the ISPCC felt they were too young to be left at home alone and definitely too young to be looking after younger siblings.

marti101

danash wrote: »

I would dearly love to reach a compromise on this - I have three years of documented emails in my attempts to reach compromises on parenting conflicts. All to no avail. As they say you can bring a horse to water......

My wife seems genetically programmed to resist whatever I say - whether it has merit or nor - purely because I say it. That is hardly the basis for an adult discussion. Hence her policy of taking unilateral decisions when the children are in her care and ignoring any activity on my time. The children are clever enough to spot this and regularly play us off against each other knowing it will lead to a possibly better outcome for them rather than two parents agreeing on a policy.

Sad but true......

But at time you werent even in the country,so get a job here and take more responsability.You might think you know it all and would never leave the child alone but you dont knopw what the future holds.I am not condoning your wife for leaving kids on theur own but sometimes stuff happens.If you go the legal way and the kids are taking off her who will look after them if your out of the country.It is a juggling act and all we can do is do our best

Kildrought

I hadn't missed that post littlebug; the answer is still the same - the only way the situation can be resolved is by dialogue between the two parents.

As I've already stated there is no legal minimum in this country at which you can leave a child alone; child neglect is an offence, but leaving a child alone is not in itself an offence. Where a child is otherwise fed, clothed, educated and has not come to harm, being alone at home will not be sufficient grounds for proscecution.

Any practitioner in the area of child care or early education will tell you that leaving primary children alone after school is not best practice; but then neither is children being raised by 2 parents living apart.

Parenting plans and separation agreements are just words on paper, it takes maturity and communication to make them work.

Danash, you can't change other people, you can only change yourself. Can I recommend an excellent book called Choice Theory by William Glasser; if I had my way I'd make it required reading for every separating couple!

danash

marti101 wrote: »

But at time you werent even in the country,so get a job here and take more responsability.You might think you know it all and would never leave the child alone but you dont knopw what the future holds.I am not condoning your wife for leaving kids on theur own but sometimes stuff happens.If you go the legal way and the kids are taking off her who will look after them if your out of the country.It is a juggling act and all we can do is do our best

Marti,

I wrote earlier on that I have a long standing arrangement that my family steps in when I am away on business - as they did the previous saturday night when she went to the pub. On this occasion she simply refused to call them.

I have no desire to have the children taken off my wife - nor does that seem possible for one home alone incident - I am merely looking for opinions here on how to convince my wife that leaving children home alone is not a good idea. Look at the options I posited in the OP>

SarahMc

Well the original options you put in the OP

Forget about it - maybe a one off
I think that is the consensus you are getting here, start resolving after-school care now for Autumn, and you really should be sourcing care now. you are muddying the waters and creating conflict with your ex by getting hung up on the 1 day your child was home alone.

Go to the Health Board ?
Not a runner, her actions were not illegal. Could damage the chances of joint parenting forever.

Go legal ?
Do you mean send a solicitors letter or apply for custody? Bit extreme imo
Can't you negotiate first? Focus on one issue - i.e. after-school care - offer solutions (not just your family), research options (getting a 12 year old to attend a Childminder won't be easy).

danash

SarahMc wrote: »

Well the original options you put in the OP

Forget about it - maybe a one off
I think that is the consensus you are getting here, start resolving after-school care now for Autumn, and you really should be sourcing care now. you are muddying the waters and creating conflict with your ex by getting hung up on the 1 day your child was home alone.

Go to the Health Board ?
Not a runner, her actions were not illegal. Could damage the chances of joint parenting forever.

Go legal ?
Do you mean send a solicitors letter or apply for custody? Bit extreme imo
Can't you negotiate first? Focus on one issue - i.e. after-school care - offer solutions (not just your family), research options (getting a 12 year old to attend a Childminder won't be easy).

Sarah et al - thank you - I am happy now that the sickness was and could remain as a once off and I should let it go.

The long term care is the issue and I see the once off as her testing the waters for justifying it in the Autumn.


I have tried and tried to discuss this with my wife - however she deems any attempt by me to discuss these issues as harrassment and bullying. She views any comment I make as being derogatory of her 'parenting calls' . She simply will not discuss this as mature adults should. Hence my options 2 and 3 - there is only so long I can attempt to discuss this without having to resort to more formal means. She will not take phone calls and only reluctantly answers emails - never answering the questions asked - merely railing at my 'cheek' in questioning her judgement and disputing my right to be an equal parent. Sometimes I think she would prefer if I was a deadbeat dad.

Woddle

I would be careful Danish with the phone calls and emails, as she could be recording all these as evidence of harassment, I would contact seperated fathers of Ireland and get some information for yourself, I am in complete agreement with you about the incident and what would happen if the 9 year old was sick, would she make a parenting call and leave the 9 year old home or stop the 11 year old from going to school aswell, so as to stay home and mind the 9 year old, def needs to be nipped in the butt, there are 2 parents here and both of you together should have input in their wellbeing, go arm yourself with information, because from my experience she already has.

danash

Woddle wrote: »

I would be careful Danish with the phone calls and emails, as she could be recording all these as evidence of harassment, I would contact seperated fathers of Ireland and get some information for yourself, I am in complete agreement with you about the incident and what would happen if the 9 year old was sick, would she make a parenting call and leave the 9 year old home or stop the 11 year old from going to school aswell, so as to stay home and mind the 9 year old, def needs to be nipped in the butt, there are 2 parents here and both of you together should have input in their wellbeing, go arm yourself with information, because from my experience she already has.

Woddle - I see your point - I limit my emails to legitimate questions about my children. I would relish a day in court if she took me there for 'harrassment' . I've no experience of the family courts but I cant see how any judge would rule against a father trying legitimately to parent his children - in accordance with the agreement made between the two of us. She is moving the goalposts after three years.

She does have a 'kitchen cabinet' that comes up with a new approach every few months. I stay consistent in my attempts to co-parent my children.

Nevyn

Did you make the agreetment between ye legally binding ?

danash

Thaedydal wrote: »

Did you make the agreetment between ye legally binding ?

No - it has not been stamped or reviewed by a court - it is a simple(complex) agreement that we hammered out with a family member from each side mediating. Formal mediation was a disaster - at one stage she struck me ( not for the first time) in the presence of the mediator as I asserted my right to parent my children - and she played her deserted wife card.

A court approved judgement can be revisited at any time anyhow so this has just as much validity in law as any other agreement between two parties.

octo

Hi danash

Just been reading through all the replies, and there's some good advice here. I don't think its ok to leave a child home alone either, but then again it was a once-off, and she checked in during the day, so its a bit fuzzy really. From your wife's perspective, I can see that it might be intimidating to contact the ex-inlaws to help with childcare.

Sounds like the issue isn't just about parenting, perhaps your other feelings about your marriage are mixed in there also.

How about changing your work so you can be around more for your kids? Seems like your wife is taking most of the responsibility.

Good luck in the future.

danash

As mentioned earlier I have been looking at the childcare options for the summer and for September. I have arranged an Au Pair for the summer - via a reputable agency and have recieved Police background checks on the girl.

So is this hypocritical ---- I am away for 4 days next week and asked my wife if she would mind if my daughter stayed overnight with the Au Pair.


The children would be back and forth between our two houses as we live close by.


She has come back to me claiming I would be negligent to leave my daughter with the Au Pair. She has abdicated any responsibility in securing childcare for the summer. Her preferred option was to leave both the 11 & 9 year old in the care of a 14 year old neighbour ( apart form the September Home alone option )


I know you are all reading beyond the issue at hand and see an appalling communication situation with my wife - and you are right - however I am merely trying to be as good a parent as possible in the face of opposition purely for the sake of it.

Will leave it to the great and the good.....

SarahMc

So you have hired an au-pair to assist with childcare on your end (even though you have great family ready to help out).

You want to know is it reasonable for your ex to leave her children in the sole care of a "girl" for 4 overnights whilst you are away?

No it is not reasonable.

marti101

If its your turn to have the kids cancel the business trip.After all you cant call her a bad parent and then swan off for 4 days and leave the kids with an au pair.It doesnt matter if shes passed security checks 4 days is a long time to leave them.Do the kids know her at all or is this a new arrangement and if your family is so great with helping out whats wrong with leaving them there.I think we are only now getting more of the story.After all if you wanted your ex to leave work rof that day while your child was sick you shoulod offer to call off the trip,maybe then youll realise it isnt that easy and come off your high horse.

danash

marti101 wrote: »

If its your turn to have the kids cancel the business trip.After all you cant call her a bad parent and then swan off for 4 days and leave the kids with an au pair.It doesnt matter if shes passed security checks 4 days is a long time to leave them.Do the kids know her at all or is this a new arrangement and if your family is so great with helping out whats wrong with leaving them there.I think we are only now getting more of the story.After all if you wanted your ex to leave work rof that day while your child was sick you shoulod offer to call off the trip,maybe then youll realise it isnt that easy and come off your high horse.

Well my horse isn't that high at all - let me explain the circumstances. The children will not be in my sole care for the 4 days next week. I have the children one evening during the week and one evening at the weekend. At all other times they are with their mother. The Au Pair is to care for the children during 9 - 5 Monday Friday for the summer - while both my wife and I work. When I am away they stay with their mother. My family is available to take them when my wife cannot. They are a fall back rather than Plan A.

What I have suggested is that my daughter spend the evening/sleep over with the Au Pair - who is 21 years old - as she will be in my house alone. My wife lives in the same street. The children are over and back between both houses many times during the day and evening - there is not a rigid divide or handover between the parents. I accept the Au Pair is a new situation but my children dont have an issue.

As for me cancelling the business trip I already make concessions to my work by working from home whenever possible so as to be available for the children. In the earlier circumstance I would not have hesitated to use a 'force majeure' day to care for my child. Cancelling business trips is more difficult as it puts in jeopardy the very income that sustains my children (along with my wife's contribution). My trips are planned out and visible to my wife and children for months in advance. I did not expect my wife to cancel her job that day - just make use of the emergency fall back that was available to her.



For those of you ready to pillory me my wife has abdicated any responsibility in securing childcare for the summer and beyond into September. Some of you seem to have a problem with a separated father taking a role in the parenting of his children - or God forbid daring to suggest that a mother might not be acting as an icon of parenthood. However that is the way it is......

danash

SarahMc wrote: »

So you have hired an au-pair to assist with childcare on your end (even though you have great family ready to help out).

You want to know is it reasonable for your ex to leave her children in the sole care of a "girl" for 4 overnights whilst you are away?

No it is not reasonable.

Sarah - see previous post for more detail - the Au pair is available for my wife as well. My family are my fall back position rather than a day to day option. I dont recall ever placing them in that role on here.

I do think that a 21 year old Au pair with relevant checks is slightly better than a 14 year old 'girl' as proposed by my wife.