Vote on the Lisbon Treaty here. (Quit yer bitchin')

x_Laura_x

Rb wrote: »

If you love Ireland and want to avoid a United States of Europe, vote no

Am......ok so

Rb

Stekelly wrote: »

FF and FG are both for the treaty. Between them they got about 85-90%(cant remember exact numbers of the votes so surely that means the vast majority of people want one or the other calling the shots. So why all the no votes?

Was there any mention of the treaty at the last election?

I can't remember one anyway. People may vote for FF, doesn't necessarily mean they're going to go with EVERYTHING that FF say. People should entitled to vote in such major decisions as this, regardless of their political affiliations.

ateam

I'm voting Yes. It's ironic that this country was once a pro-European country. Now with the influx of migrants from Eastern Europe, we're suddenly getting cold on the EU.

The United States of Europe argument is flawed. As if there will be a United States of Europe particularly with Britain in the EU, they wouldn't even surrender their currency.

Lockstep

I'm Labour and am voting no.


Just becuase my party is voting one way doesn't automatically mean I must vote that way too, part of having an open mind is thinking that maybe the so called lunatic fringe might actually be right some of the time.

Duiske

Steve_o wrote: »

As a reult i don't know how i'm voting, but i'm am leaning to the NO side at the moment, its seems like the safe option, because i dont get it...:mad:

The sensible option. If you don't understand it, vote no. If Ireland votes no then nothing changes.
And before some brainiac turns up to tell me its easy to understand, it is clear that even the referendum Commission themselves are struggling to grasp some points.

The commission has also clarified how qualified majority voting would work under the treaty, areas in which the EU can act, and changes from unanimity to qualified majority voting.

When asked to explain one of the listed items which is to be dealt with by QMV rather than unanimity, the members of the commission were unable to explain what it meant.

The area concerned is listed as 'arrangements for the control of implementing powers'. Mr Justice O'Neill said there was not precision about exactly what it meant, but was unable to clarify further.

It is understood it refers to the control and supervision of committees of officials who draw up the legal rules implementing decisions of the Council of Ministers.

Quote above taken from here. (Rte News)

Terry

Stekelly wrote: »

I thought everything about Ireland was ****? At least thats what all the threads that pop up daily bemoaning the state of the country lead me to believe, so why not become as much a part of Europe as possible?

He's still mourning the death of the empire.

Anyway, I'll be voting no because no other country got a chance to vote on it.
Democracy and all that.

In saying that, there are some changes proposed by the treaty which I support and would most likely vote yes if the rest of Europe had a say too.

briantwin

I voted no when i meant to vote yes.
People have been polluted by the American funded Libertas army. Jesus its sad.

Believing a load of supposition and lies from a group like Libertas is just stupid. Do you honestly think Declan Ganley gives a flying **** what happens this country? Because he really really doesn't, just like there are apparently ulterior motives to the yes vote you can be damned sure that scalliwag has a 100 times as many.

Guy:Incognito

Terry wrote: »

Anyway, I'll be voting no because no other country got a chance to vote on it.
Democracy and all that.
.

So why not demand we veto everything that doesnt get voted on by everyone in europe? Whats the point in voted for MEP's and TD's if not to make decisions for us?

WomanInWhite

Summer Glau wrote: »

I know i am going to get banned for this for a while. But you are a ****ing idiot. Its a legal document that is filled with a lot of legal talk and big words to stop as many loopholes and dangers from appearing etc.. You don't refuse to use a solicitor/lawyer just because you don't understand the big complex words they use in court do you?

If you don't understand it don't vote on it. And don't be a ****ing child and vote No because you cant understand it. There is a wealth of information out there from both sides, from independent positions all over the web, on news papers etc.

If you don't understand it then don't vote, let the people who do understand it vote. If you dislike the government and want to vote no just to spite them, stay at home and don't vote. Read up on information yourselves and vote either yes or no depdning on what suits you best. Dont be a ****ing muppet.

Outrageous. The document should be accessible in terms of language and clearly comprehensible to all those upon whom ratification relies, i.e. the Irish people.

Exactly because it is not is the reason why people may not be able to make an informed decision. The convoluted nature of the Lisbon Treaty in itself is enough to make people suspicious and the national debate makes this no clearer as the arguments are naturally loaded in favour of a Yes / No vote depending on which side they emanate from.

I would argue that far from tightening loopholes, the Treaty, because it does not make explicit the conditions it will establish, possibly leaves it open to multiple interpretations once implemented and therefore it would be impossible to foresee the ways in which it might be used.

If this is indeed good for Europe and good for Ireland, why not make the document readable and the consequences transparent for everybody? Why allow everyone to vote if doing so necessitates one be a lawyer in order to make an informed decision? Your attitude smacks of elitism and snobbery. I can't believe you would suggest people should not vote if they don't understand what it is all about. This is disgusting on so many levels.

Thankfully the population is not stupid, as the government seems to think, and will not be hoodwinked and frightened into making a decision they are unsure about, as the current polls would seem to suggest.

Dragan

Weathercheck wrote: »

The reasons why people are voting no are absurd.

Don't ruin Europe on us all, if you're voting in protest in the government, please just abstain from voting.

People are entitled to vote whatever way they like for whatever reasons they wish.

Last time i checked.

Guy:Incognito

Dragan wrote: »

People are entitled to vote whatever way they like for whatever reasons they wish.

Last time i checked.

Stupid people are entitled to ruin democracy you mean?

Highnoon

When did RTE stop being neutral (ha ha). Was watching the 6pm news today had the Pro guys yelling we were in big trouble if we voted No. And sinn fein saying that the electorate were listening to their argument for NO!

My reasons for my vote have nothing to do with what sinn fein think on the matter in fact there are people I know who are inclined to vote yes because they don't agree with Sinn Feinn's politics. So putting them forward as the face of No was a little unfair I thought.

I'm choosing to ignore all the waffle now. I've read up on it as best I could, I've attended a debate which was so so and have my vote ready to cast. If the government would stop scare mongering which is what I saw on the news today and what they have accused the No vote of doing and organise a televised debate I'd watch.

Schedule a couple of hours on RTE, TG4 (wherever), get representatives from Yes & No and someone Neutral/Fair to chair it then I would be happy to watch it and reconsider my decision. But that doesn't seem likely to happen and that worries me. Push, Push, Push Say Yes, Say Yes....

Goodshape

ateam wrote: »

I'm voting Yes. It's ironic that this country was once a pro-European country. Now with the influx of migrants from Eastern Europe, we're suddenly getting cold on the EU.

I think Europe is a great idea.

"Imagine there's no countries, it isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die for, and no religion too."

Beautiful sentiment. I'm like the least nationalistic person I know. I think the "it's good for Ireland" / "It's bad for Ireland" arguments are irritating to no end. The world doesn't stop at our borders. What about what's good for Europe? (I'd go further, but a united earth isn't really on the cards at the moment).

But I also believe in an educated and informed democracy. And Europe as a whole has been denied a democratic vote on Lisbon. Not a good start.

Let Europe have a vote and I'll gladly accept the outcome.

ateam

Duiske wrote: »

The sensible option. If you don't understand it, vote no. If Ireland votes no then nothing changes.[/U][/URL]

The sensible option and advice to give is to find about the Treaty before making your mind up. I'm sick of this complication argument, take a few minutes to listen to the radio or read on the net. I'm not massively intelligent and I could figure out the main points.

If you don't know vote No is an opportunistic tactic employed by people who are actually encouraging ignorance. Disgraceful.

Dragan

Stekelly wrote: »

Stupid people are entitled to ruin democracy you mean?

You applying a stereotype based on a small vocal group of "No" voters to the whole mass. I've read as much as i could find on the Treaty and come to my own decision. Because that differs from yours (obviously) i am not entitled to vote in yours eyes?

I don't think so.

You appear to be upset because you assume you will end up in the majority with a "Yes" vote. Well, hate to break it to you, but thats what happens.....sometimes you end up in the minority and don't see what you want coming into play.

Your very stance on it is hardly a good advertisement for "yes voters", seeing as we are throwing the generalisations about. :rolleyes:

WomanInWhite

Goodshape wrote: »

What's the rational explanation for denying 26 of the 27 countries a vote on the Lisbon treaty? Is Europe a democracy, or isn't it?

Good or bad, if they were trying to pass something like this without a vote in Ireland I'd seriously hope that the one country that did have a vote would have enough respect for my democratic rights to shoot it down.

Because apart from that, and our own quirky constitutional rules aside, this stinks of a 'daddy knows best, shut up and take it' type of deal.

I'm pretty sure I'll be voting NO.

This is the reason I will be voting "no". Before I even consider the implications of the Treaty, this disgusting fact is enough to set my vote in concrete. In Austria there have been demonstrations and protests to express the outrage felt by the silenced population there. I don't know about other countries but I would say this is the case elsewhere. Practically fascism.

Terry

Stekelly wrote: »

So why not demand we veto everything that doesnt get voted on by everyone in europe? Whats the point in voted for MEP's and TD's if not to make decisions for us?

Our elected officials have given us the opportunity to decide on this treaty for ourselves.
That they support the treaty is of no consequence to me.

Every citizen of Europe should be given a say in such a landmark constitutional change.
Because every citizen has not been given a say is the reason I will not support this change.

Minor changes are made on a daily basis and our elected officials are behind them. This is not about the size and shape of bananas or fish quotas. This is bigger than that and that's why we need every voice in Europe to be heard.

ateam

WomanInWhite wrote: »

This is the reason I will be voting "no". Before I even consider the implications of the Treaty, this disgusting fact is enough to set my vote in concrete. In Austria there have been demonstrations and protests to express the outrage felt by the silenced population there. I don't know about other countries but I would say this is the case elsewhere. Practically fascism.

But that is a completely separate issue. The fact that Austrians can't vote on the Treaty has nothing to do with the Treaty itself. Why not vote on the merits of the Treaty like you're supposed to.

Dragan

ateam wrote: »

But that is a completely separate issue. The fact that Austrians can't vote on the Treaty has nothing to do with the Treaty itself. Why not vote on the merits of the Treaty like you're supposed to.

In fairness i can see their point, that it is a bit of an injustice being given a vote when others were not. How would you feel if the Irish government had turned around and said "We're voting "NO", end of".

Guy:Incognito

Dragan wrote: »

You applying a stereotype based on a small vocal group of "No" voters to the whole mass. I've read as much as i could find on the Treaty and come to my own decision. Because that differs from yours (obviously) i am not entitled to vote in yours eyes?

I don't think so.

You appear to be upset because you assume you will end up in the majority with a "Yes" vote. Well, hate to break it to you, but thats what happens.....sometimes you end up in the minority and don't see what you want coming into play.

Your very stance on it is hardly a good advertisement for "yes voters", seeing as we are throwing the generalisations about. :rolleyes:

How is my stance of educate yourself wrong? I cleary said above that people should read about it and make an informed decision either way.

People on here went to great lenghts to call all FF voters idiots at the last election and call legacy voting disgraceful. Yet now its ok to vote no, despite not having a clue what they are voting for, because it suits you.

Should everyone not really into politics and who doesnt really understand anythign outside of their own life just vote FF at the next election so that nothing changes?

Goodshape

ateam wrote: »

But that is a completely separate issue. The fact that Austrians can't vote on the Treaty has nothing to do with the Treaty itself. Why not vote on the merits of the Treaty like you're supposed to.

Because what right do you have to dictate these changes to the population of Austria, or any other country?

ninebeanrows

I hope to god the intellect in our society shines through next Thursday, otherwise it will be a sad day for our nation.

I cringe at the arguments spitted out by the NO campaign.

I agree a number on here have put together a well constructed argument for a no vote, but when i hear people on the street, dart etc talking about it i feel so angry, the majority of people voting no have been brainwashed or are racists.

Like the guy on Joe Duffy this afternoon voting now because of all the foreign workers coming over here and taking our jobs, it makes me cringe.

Dragan

Stekelly wrote: »

How is my stance of educate yourself wrong? I cleary said above that people should read about it and make an informed decision either way.

People on here went to great lenghts to call all FF voters idiots at the last election and call legacy voting disgraceful. Yet now its ok to vote no, despite not having a clue what they are voting for, because it suits you.

Should everyone not really into politics and who doesnt really understand anythign outside of their own life just vote FF at the next election so that nothing changes?

I think we are arguing different things. I agree the people need to educate, but i don't believe someone is stupid just because they say "no", which is what i took from your post.

Apologies if i was wrong.

Goodshape

Dey Tuk R Jarbs!

ateam

Dragan wrote: »

In fairness i can see their point, that it is a bit of an injustice being given a vote when others were not. How would you feel if the Irish government had turned around and said "We're voting "NO", end of".

I do see their point and it makes us all the more privileged that we do have a referendum on the Treaty or any Treaty that will alter the constitution.

But saying that because other European countries can't vote on the Treaty, I'm going to vote No is illogical, misguided and downright unfair to the Treaty itself.

Guy:Incognito

Dragan wrote: »

I think we are arguing different things. I agree the people need to educate, but i don't believe someone is stupid just because they say "no", which is what i took from your post.

Apologies if i was wrong.

Fair enough. Just to make sure w're 100% on the same page, I didnt call people idiots (although I do believe the public in general to be idiots) because they vote no. I called people who's only reason for voting no is because they dont know what they are voting for idiots(or more that this is an idiotic decision).

While we're doing our thinking along these lines why dotn we just assume anyone who doesnt turn up to vote is a yes vote and chalk it down.

They may as well flip a coin to decide their vote.

Terry

briantwin wrote: »

I voted no when i meant to vote yes.
People have been polluted by the American funded Libertas army. Jesus its sad.

In the interests of democracy, your vote has been changed in this poll.

Stekelly wrote: »

Stupid people are entitled to ruin democracy you mean?

One more comment like that and you will be banned.
I'm talking about context here and you know damn well that I am.

WomanInWhite

ateam wrote: »

But that is a completely separate issue. The fact that Austrians can't vote on the Treaty has nothing to do with the Treaty itself. Why not vote on the merits of the Treaty like you're supposed to.

If I did what I was supposed to do there would be no need for a referendum as it would be ratified by the opinion of the government. I do not believe it is a seperate issue. The Treaty will affect all of Europe. The means by which it will be brought into being is underhand, exclusive and overtly discriminatory.

drug dealer

i havent a clue either

ateam

Goodshape wrote: »

Because what right do you have to dictate these changes to the population of Austria, or any other country?

Separate issue. Vote on the merits of the Treaty.