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Declan Ganley - Libertas Master

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2

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    #32
    Furious-Dave
    Registered Users Posts: 479 ✭✭Furious-Dave


    The only people who need to wake up are the 'No' voters. If Ireland votes No again then we can say good-bye to our EU membership. The rest of the EU are not going to tolerate a country the size of Ireland holding up the entire political process. What happens then? Well for one we'd have to change currency, again. Ireland is one of the countries that has benefited the most from being in the EU. Without them we would be an underdeveloped, piss poor country.


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    #33
    LaMer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 159 ✭✭LaMer


    AFAIK there's no legal backing to Ireland being expelled from the EU.

    And Ganley, there's something dodgy from where the funding from Libertas came from, some have said neocons in the US military, Arms dealers, contractors, etc. etc. Who knows.


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    #34
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    LaMer wrote: »
    AFAIK there's no legal backing to Ireland being expelled from the EU.
    Therefore, the other 26 countries will sit quietly on their hands and let us dictate the pace? Indefinitely?


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    #35
    Furious-Dave
    Registered Users Posts: 479 ✭✭Furious-Dave


    I'm pretty sure that if the majority of other member states wanted Ireland out, then we'd be out.


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    #36
    cassette50
    Registered Users Posts: 474 ✭✭cassette50


    so instead of asking why the Irish people voted no and addressing those concerns, it appears that it is now the tactics of the Yes campaign to enter in a smear campaign against those on the No side????


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    #37
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    cassette50 wrote: »
    so instead of asking why the Irish people voted no and addressing those concerns....
    Ah yes, the famous "concerns". What were they again?


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    #38
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Abortion, euthanasia, conscription. Try to keep up.


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    #39
    LaMer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 159 ✭✭LaMer


    OscarBravo,

    Ireland isn't going to dictate the pace, its not even a given that other states would ratify this treaty. The Czechs still haven't ratified it.

    And no it's legally not possible to be expelled.


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    #40
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    LaMer wrote: »
    Ireland isn't going to dictate the pace, its not even a given that other states would ratify this treaty. The Czechs still haven't ratified it.
    And if they do? If 26 countries ratify it, and one doesn't, what then?
    And no it's legally not possible to be expelled.
    According to whose law?


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    #41
    Furious-Dave
    Registered Users Posts: 479 ✭✭Furious-Dave


    I do want to see an organized 'Yes' campaign that properly informs the public on the benefits of the Lisbon treaty, but I believe that the government are too incompetent to do it. The only concern I have about why people voted no is that they bought into the lies and misinformation of Libertas and Sinn Fein. Abortion and euthanasia being among these lies. Abortion is, and always will be, down to each member state to decide for themselves.


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    #42
    LaMer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 159 ✭✭LaMer


    Big if, It needs 60% in the Czech parliament to be passed, doesn't look likely with what has been said.

    EU law, Ireland has an option to withdraw(not likely) but AFAIK the technical issues for expulsion are undefined, so theres no legal basis.

    Anyway, I voted yes for Lisbon, and I do think it's definitely within the Nations rights to examine the financial situation and the sources of funding of a political party or entity. It not a smear campaign, its freedom of speech, we have tribunals to investigate senior politicians.


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    #43
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    LaMer wrote: »
    EU law, Ireland has an option to withdraw(not likely) but AFAIK the technical issues for expulsion are undefined, so theres no legal basis.
    What's the legal basis for the existence of the EU?


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    #44
    Furious-Dave
    Registered Users Posts: 479 ✭✭Furious-Dave


    LaMer wrote: »
    Anyway, I voted yes for Lisbon, and I do think it's definitely within the Nations rights to examine the financial situation and the sources of funding of a political party or entity. It not a smear campaign, its freedom of speech, we have tribunals to investigate senior politicians.

    I agree. Especially when one of the leaders of the 'No' campaign may or may not have connections with the CIA and the Pentagon, and may or may not be acting in their interest, not ours.


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    #45
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Abortion, euthanasia, conscription. Try to keep up.
    Ah. I thought perhaps after all this time that "concerns" might have evolved into something that bears some sort of relation to reality. Oh well...
    Furious-Dave wrote: »
    I do want to see an organized 'Yes' campaign that properly informs the public on the benefits of the Lisbon treaty, but I believe that the government are too incompetent to do it....
    ...and many on the 'No' side don't want to be informed.


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    #46
    Dob74
    Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Dob74


    Furious-Dave wrote: »
    I do want to see an organized 'Yes' campaign that properly informs the public on the benefits of the Lisbon treaty, but I believe that the government are too incompetent to do it. The only concern I have about why people voted no is that they bought into the lies and misinformation of Libertas and Sinn Fein. Abortion and euthanasia being among these lies. Abortion is, and always will be, down to each member state to decide for themselves.[/quo

    I voted no for none of these reasons. I do not want any further intergration into europe I think we have gone for enough. Single currency open borders, what do they want next? I thought that was as for the EU was going. I am perfectly happy with the EU at the moment. I do not want the United States of Europe as Lucinda Creighton proposed. At least she was honest enough to say were she wants europe to go.
    I don't want Turkey in the EU. They have an appalling human rights record. I know Lisbon would not have let them in but it makes them one step closer. A Turkish city(istanbul) is european city of culture in 2010? And they are not in the EU. They are just softening us up to let them in.
    Lisbon is just another step forward for the eurocrats to pull us in tighter. We were not happy in the British empire I dont think we would be happy in the European Empire.
    Just wondering what made people vote Yes, except thier slavish devotion to our politial parties. Was there any line or paragraph in the Treaty that tipped them over the edge. Our was is just that the only party against it was SF.


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    #47
    Furious-Dave
    Registered Users Posts: 479 ✭✭Furious-Dave


    I voted Yes because I do want Europe to become tighter and stronger. I believe it is the only viable counter balance to American power. People talk about Irish cultural identity and neutrality but we are already the most Americanized country in Europe. Most of the population speak English and there's American cafés and fast foot restaurants everywhere. Our neutrality went out the window when American military aircraft were allowed to land unchecked in Shannon airport.


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    #48
    Void
    Closed Accounts Posts: 218 ✭✭Void


    Dob74 wrote: »
    Furious-Dave wrote: »
    I do want to see an organized 'Yes' campaign that properly informs the public on the benefits of the Lisbon treaty, but I believe that the government are too incompetent to do it. The only concern I have about why people voted no is that they bought into the lies and misinformation of Libertas and Sinn Fein. Abortion and euthanasia being among these lies. Abortion is, and always will be, down to each member state to decide for themselves.

    I voted no for none of these reasons. I do not want any further intergration into europe I think we have gone for enough. Single currency open borders, what do they want next? I thought that was as for the EU was going. I am perfectly happy with the EU at the moment. I do not want the United States of Europe as Lucinda Creighton proposed. At least she was honest enough to say were she wants europe to go.
    I don't want Turkey in the EU. They have an appalling human rights record. I know Lisbon would not have let them in but it makes them one step closer. A Turkish city(istanbul) is european city of culture in 2010? And they are not in the EU. They are just softening us up to let them in.
    Lisbon is just another step forward for the eurocrats to pull us in tighter. We were not happy in the British empire I dont think we would be happy in the European Empire.
    Just wondering what made people vote Yes, except thier slavish devotion to our politial parties. Was there any line or paragraph in the Treaty that tipped them over the edge. Our was is just that the only party against it was SF.

    Feel free to demonstrate the ignorance of No voters. I would suggest you go find a map and have a look at which continent Istanbul is located on. And you do realise that Turkey will not be allowed entry EXACTLY because of it's human rights record? They will have to sort their **** out first, they have already begun implementing many changes. You have provided an excellent example of the positive benefits of the EU, many thanks.


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    #49
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Dob74 wrote: »
    I don't want Turkey in the EU. They have an appalling human rights record. I know Lisbon would not have let them in but it makes them one step closer.
    This is a new one - full marks for an original spin.

    Care to explain how ratification of the Lisbon Treaty will further Turkey’s application for EU membership?


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    #50
    studiorat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭studiorat


    Dob74 wrote: »
    Furious-Dave wrote: »
    . I do not want the United States of Europe as Lucinda Creighton proposed. At least she was honest enough to say were she wants europe to go.

    I think you'll find Ganley wants a closer model to the US. Federal Europe, Elected President etc...
    Dob74 wrote: »
    I don't want Turkey in the EU. They have an appalling human rights record. I know Lisbon would not have let them in but it makes them one step closer. A Turkish city(istanbul) is european city of culture in 2010? And they are not in the EU. They are just softening us up to let them in.

    Personally I believe Turkey being in the EU would be a very good thing in the long run.

    Dob74 wrote: »
    Just wondering what made people vote Yes, except thier slavish devotion to our politial parties. Was there any line or paragraph in the Treaty that tipped them over the edge. Our was is just that the only party against it was SF.

    We have gotten a very good deal out of Europe this far.

    Firstly, the Irish Constitution will continue to be the basic legal document of the country and will continue to determine the relationship between Irish and EU law.

    The Lisbon Treaty is not self-amending. Any future changes must be ratified in accordance with the constitutional requirements of each member state. A referendum each time here. (Contrary to the myth perpetrated by the No side.)

    The EU cannot take decisions over taxation rates unless it is with the unanimous agreement of all 27 EU member states. The reality is that there are a number of countries opposed to EU involvement in taxation matters, and this includes the UK.

    The European Commission does propose EU law, it doesn't ratify it. That is decided, in the most cases, by the elected European Parliament and the Council of Ministers.

    Member states in the Nice Treaty in 2000 already agreed in principle to reduce the size of the Commission once the EU reached 27 countries. The reduction of commissioners guarantees complete equality of treatment among all member states. Two-thirds of member states may nominate a commissioner at any one time and this right will be rotated equally among member states.

    Ireland, Malta and Cyprus will have exactly the same rights of representation on the European Commission as Germany, Poland and Britain.

    Unfortunately, SF I believe just traditionally voted against the grain. As for Ganley he said he read it and is worried about his kids future or some such.
    I doubt he actually understands it in the way in which he say's he does, he buys and sells company stock basically. He has no legal qualification or legal background. A genius at the fast buck and the marketing plan, but he's not in a position to make an informed decision regarding Lisbon.


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    #51
    LaMer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 159 ✭✭LaMer


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    What's the legal basis for the existence of the EU?
    Read the Treaty of Rome and the Maastricht Treaty.


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    #52
    Mahatma coat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    ...........................but heis in no position to make an informed decision about the future of Europe

    this kind of mindset worries me, I have a vote, My Mam has a Vote, My little sister has a vote, we dont have big fancy law degrees, so we should just shut up and do what we're told?


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    #53
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    LaMer wrote: »
    Read the Treaty of Rome and the Maastricht Treaty.
    So, the legal basis for the existence of the union is an agreement between 27 sovereign countries: the European Union is its own legal basis.

    Doesn't seem like it would be too hard for 26 of them to get rid of one, if they really wanted to.


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    #54
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Mahatma coat wrote: »
    this kind of mindset worries me, I have a vote, My Mam has a Vote, My little sister has a vote, we dont have big fancy law degrees, so we should just shut up and do what we're told?
    No, but it would be nice if you made a decision based on fact rather than on rhetoric and scaremongering.


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    #55
    Frankie Lee
    Registered Users Posts: 3,285 ✭✭✭Frankie Lee


    Yesterday evening on the Right Hook, George claimed that Declan Ganley singlehandedly brought about the no vote, my question is why are the media bigging up Libertas so much for the past few weeks.

    How an organisation with no ground level members can be so prominent in the national media is also disturbing. Why do the media not interview that Coir group or look for the opinions of any of the left wing groups that campaigned against it.

    If people would remember how the referendum went it was clear that it was a victory for the left with working class people voting no in there droves while the media/establishment have put a spin on it being a far right vote.


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    #56
    nhughes100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 845 ✭✭✭nhughes100


    djpbarry wrote: »
    I think you're giving the Irish electorate far too much credit .... In what way were they untruthful? Let's go with Fianna Fáil; give me something specific that they said about Lisbon that was not true.

    Fianna Fail - Vote Yes to Lisbon to keep Ireland at the heart of Europe - how we laughed when I heard that one bandied about. No doubt we'll be told to vote yes in the next referendum due to the recession and economic reasons which of course arenothing to do with Lisbon.

    I agree there's a lot of voter bashing on this thread, next thing you guys will be wanting is an exam before you're allowed vote on Lisbon 2. It all smacks of elitism and as I've said before, sour grapes.

    As for one country holding up the other 26, well thems the rules. I didn't see the EU lynch mob ganging up on the countries that voted down the EU Constitution - Was that forced through in the other 25 countries - NO, it was abandoned then re-packaged as Lisbon. If we vote NO again and I hope we do the treaty will have to be re-negotiated - simple as that.


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    #57
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    nhughes100 wrote: »
    Fianna Fail - Vote Yes to Lisbon to keep Ireland at the heart of Europe - how we laughed when I heard that one bandied about.
    I think you'll find I asked for something specific. Although, I think it's fair to say that Irish politicians have certainly lost face in EU circles as a result of the 'No' vote.
    nhughes100 wrote: »
    I agree there's a lot of voter bashing on this thread, next thing you guys will be wanting is an exam before you're allowed vote on Lisbon 2. It all smacks of elitism and as I've said before, sour grapes.
    It's not "elitism", it's democracy. People have a responsibility to inform themselves of the consequences of their vote.
    nhughes100 wrote: »
    If we vote NO again and I hope we do the treaty will have to be re-negotiated - simple as that.
    And if we vote 'No' a 3rd time? Or a 4th? Will the rest of the EU just continue to wait for us indefinitely?

    I'd be very surprised if anyone (Irish politicians included) has the will to renegotiate the treaty. However, I'm curious to know what this renegotiation would involve? What specific aspects of the treaty would you like to see changed?


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    #58
    Quint
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,407 ✭✭✭Quint


    For someone that's so concerned about demoracy, I really wish that the non elected lobbiest Declan Ganley would stop talking on behalf of the Irish people.


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    #59
    studiorat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭studiorat



    Dail Committee on Europe, 18th November 2008.

    Declan Ganley claimed the EU Constitution should be no more than twenty five pages long. He did not give a reason as to how he came up with this.

    When asked if he had produced such an alternative, he said no he had not.

    When asked whether his views on unelected elites contradicted his own position as an unelected millionaire who had funded a political campaign, he did not agree.:D

    Then he accuses the committee chairman of being patronising.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2008/1117/1226700655627.html Nice letter in Mondays Times about him.


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    #60
    Quint
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,407 ✭✭✭Quint


    I sent in the exact same question to newstalk today when they were discussing Ganley on Moncrief. I was given a half arsed answer about freedom of speech. Fair enough about freedom of speech, but it seems that this guy is making demands on the Treaty in the name of the irish people, most of whome have never even heard of till this referendum! I really wish the press went to town on him, but looks like he's starting to do a good job of making an arse of himself!


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    #61
    studiorat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭studiorat


    Quint wrote: »
    I really wish the press went to town on him, but looks like he's starting to do a good job of making an arse of himself!

    Two words...
    Albania.


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