Why is the Bible so imperfect?

Standman

If god created the universe, matter, all the stars and planets and complex molecules and elements and beautiful things such as flowers and trees and the perfect harmony of nature, does the vastly inferior way in which the bible was written not raise any Christians suspicion's that just maybe it is not the "word of the lord"?

Would a book written by such an awesomely, incomprehendably omniscient and omnipotent being not be the most amazing and mind-blowing book ever written? Or, at least should it not be so confusing that countless wars and murders and injustices have come out of the "mis-interpretation" of its texts?

How could a book written by such a being even be open to mis-interpretation?

Why did god even need a holy book? Could he not have just programmed it into our brains so we would all know the truth from the day we were born?

SlickRic

Standman wrote: »

If god created the universe, matter, all the stars and planets and complex molecules and elements and beautiful things such as flowers and trees and the perfect harmony of nature, does the vastly inferior way in which the bible was written not raise any Christians suspicion's that just maybe it is not the "word of the lord"?

Would a book written by such an awesomely, incomprehendably omniscient and omnipotent being not be the most amazing and mind-blowing book ever written? Or, at least should it not be so confusing that countless wars and murders and injustices have come out of the "mis-interpretation" of its texts?

How could a book written by such a being even be open to mis-interpretation?

Why did god even need a holy book? Could he not have just programmed it into our brains so we would all know the truth from the day we were born?

with all due respect you obviously haven't read it through...it's a superbly put together series of books, letters and poems. Yes it's confusing, and yes it takes a LOT of work in interpreting, reading back, looking for contexts and meanings. Its going to get complicated for our inferior minds without further study.

Reading stories here and there will not enable you to understand the entire Bible unfortunately. It's too vast. It takes years of study to understand fully...and before you ask, I'm nowhere near understanding it fully.

Oh, and in response to your last point...if He were to do that we'd ultimately have no free will. He's given us more credit than perhaps we're due and trusts us to discover and respond to the truth

iUseVi

SlickRic wrote: »

with all due respect you obviously haven't read it through...it's a superbly put together series of books, letters and poems. Yes it's confusing, and yes it takes a LOT of work in interpreting, reading back, looking for contexts and meanings. Its going to get complicated for our inferior minds without further study.

Reading stories here and there will not enable you to understand the entire Bible unfortunately. It's too vast. It takes years of study to understand fully...and before you ask, I'm nowhere near understanding it fully.

Oh, and in response to your last point...if He were to do that we'd ultimately have no free will. He's given us more credit than perhaps we're due and trusts us to discover and respond to the truth

You telling me you enjoyed the genealogies?!! :D

DISCLAIMER: This is a joke. END DISCLAIMER

SlickRic

pure torture, i'll give ya that :pac:

Standman

SlickRic wrote: »

Oh, and in response to your last point...if He were to do that we'd ultimately have no free will. He's given us more credit than perhaps we're due and trusts us to discover and respond to the truth

Not neccessarily, we could still know it and then choose not to believe it.

PDN

Standman wrote: »

Would a book written by such an awesomely, incomprehendably omniscient and omnipotent being not be the most amazing and mind-blowing book ever written?

Yes. I think it is the most amazing and mind-blowing book ever written. That is why it is the best selling book ever.

countless wars and murders and injustices have come out of the "mis-interpretation" of its texts?

I'll give you injustices, but not countless wars and murders. The wars and murders come from man's greed and lust for power. Religion is sometimes used as a flag of convenience for war or murder, but in order to do so you have to ignore bits of the Bible that are clear and unambiguous.

SlickRic

Standman wrote: »

Not neccessarily, we could still know it and then choose not to believe it.

absolutely...at no point did i say that wasn't your prerogative. I'm giving you my perspective as a Christian who believes that it's 'truth'. The term wasn't meant to sound preachy, just a way of communicating my perspective

Akrasia

PDN wrote: »

Yes. I think it is the most amazing and mind-blowing book ever written. That is why it is the best selling book ever.


I'll give you injustices, but not countless wars and murders. The wars and murders come from man's greed and lust for power. Religion is sometimes used as a flag of convenience for war or murder, but in order to do so you have to ignore bits of the Bible that are clear and unambiguous.

like the book of joshua?

PDN

Akrasia wrote: »

like the book of joshua?

At the time of the events described in the book of Joshua the Bible didn't exist, so you can hardly claim that those events were caused by the misinterpretation of the Bible.

robindch

PDN wrote: »

The wars and murders come from man's greed and lust for power. Religion is sometimes used as a flag of convenience for war or murder, but in order to do so you have to ignore bits of the Bible that are clear and unambiguous.

To continue from earlier on -- ...except for those wars and murders which were in the bible and which were clearly either carried out by god, or done with his blessing.

Either god approves of killing (as we can see from the text) or he disapproves of it (as you claim). He can't do both, unfortunately.

iUseVi

PDN wrote: »

Yes. I think it is the most amazing and mind-blowing book ever written. That is why it is the best selling book ever.

Umm, no, I'll say the bible has some merit but I have to call you on this point.

It's the best selling book ever not because it's such a great read but because every Christian has one because it is "canon".

There are a lot of Christians. Hence lots of bibles.

Now if only they all read them.

StanMcConnell

robindch wrote: »

Either god approves of killing (as we can see from the text) or he disapproves of it (as you claim). He can't do both, unfortunately.

The difference is that the deaths in Joshua were directly mandated by God.
God telling his people to kill isn't the same as giving them permission to kill.

If God is really God, then he has the right to kill or give life.

Also, the word war is being used in this thread as if war is some great evil. It's sometimes necessary. That being said, religion shouldn't be a reason for war.

Pompey Magnus

PDN wrote: »

Yes. I think it is the most amazing and mind-blowing book ever written. That is why it is the best selling book ever.

Well the second best selling book ever is Chairman Mao's "Little Red Book", one of the most evil men in history, and the best selling UK single ever is "Candle In The Wind" by Elton John. Sales does not neccesarily equal quality.

Also despite everyone owning a Bible very few actually read it. I'd say most Christians who actually do read it completely skip the Old Testament and read the Nativity and Passion of Jesus and skip all the boring middle bits.

Zombrex

StanMcConnell wrote: »

The difference is that the deaths in Joshua were directly mandated by God.
God telling his people to kill isn't the same as giving them permission to kill.

If God is really God, then he has the right to kill or give life.

Also, the word war is being used in this thread as if war is some great evil. It's sometimes necessary. That being said, religion shouldn't be a reason for war.

Possibly not, but the men PDN referred to lusting after money and power often using the claim that God told them to kill (as he told Moses etc), and this was believed by the followers. The Popes are a good example of this.

So you have many places in the Bible where God, though a representative on Earth, tells his followers to go out and kill, destroy, genocide, "enemies" or people who displease God.

Then you have many examples of later people claiming to be representatives of God on Earth claiming that God has told them go and kill, destroy, genocide etc etc.

Most of the time the Hebrew soldiers were not directly told by God anything, they were told through their leaders, who claimed direct communication with God (as leaders often do). And they followed their leaders because the soldiers believed they did have communication with God (and wouldn't you follow God's representatives on Earth? This is a perfectly acceptable way to wage war in the Old Testament.

StanMcConnell

Wicknight, I completely agree.

The issue is really whether the men in power really have the authority they claim. While wars are generally not waged in the name of Christianity (Iraq was more about fear and just happened to be from a "Christian" nation), it's still common to see teacher and pastor s misuse scripture to justify and encourage greed.

Zombrex

StanMcConnell wrote: »

The issue is really whether the men in power really have the authority they claim.

Well this issue is that since God has used this method so much in the past, it certainly opens the door to the idea that he would use it again.

Being an atheist I don't think Moses or Joshua were talking to God any more than the warring Popes were. I imagine most Christians accept that they were because it is in the Bible, and they believe the Bible is infallible.

But the Hebrew soldiers at the time didn't have the Bible to go one. Assume these stories are factual, they must have decided themselves that their leaders were the real deal, and that what their leaders were asking them to do was in line with God.

So the question is how does one determine that God would not use this method again, and therefore stop present day "soldiers of God" concluding what the Hebrews (rightly) concluded for themselves.

Some Christians that this has been discussed with would say that their interpretation of the New Testament is clear that God no longer punishes people here on Earth, that punishment is reserved for the afterlife. So while he may have sent his armies out in the Old Testament, since Jesus he would not do that any more. He may approve of just wars, wars fought by humans to prevent atrocities by other humans, but he would not start one himself.

That is as valid an interpretation as anything else, the issue is that it is clearly not shared by all Christians, may how in the past (and possibly still) believe that this is a practice that God would still continue to use. Couple that with a religious leader preaching the same message, and it is not hard to see how people could go to war not for money or greed or power, but simply to fulfil what they see as their Christian duty, as the Hebrew soldiers no doubt did.

So ultimately this ties back the OP's question, why is the Bible (and God) not clearer about these things.

Why did God use representatives and armies to do his wishes in the Old Testament only out state that he would no longer do that after Jesus (if that is the case) given that such a position can be so wrongly misinterpretations?

Flamed Diving

StanMcConnell wrote: »

If God is really God, then he has the right to kill or give life.

So obviously morals don't apply to him then?

JC 2K3

PDN wrote: »

Yes. I think it is the most amazing and mind-blowing book ever written. That is why it is the best selling book ever.

Ah now, what about Harry Potter?

Galvasean

I don't really like this whole "God created you, he can kill you if he likes" line of thinking. Imagine if parents took that line of thinking to their children.

MooseJam

is the bible copyrighted ? where does the master copy lie, if it's not copyrighted could I publish my own version of the bible, is it OK to make money selling bibles, surely selling the word of god is a big no no.

PDN

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Ah now, what about Harry Potter?

The best selling Harry Potter book, Deathly Hallows, has sold somewhere in the region of 77 million copies, well behind Tolkiein's The Lord of the Rings (150 million copies).

The Bible sells 100 million copies every year with total cumulative sales of 5 or 6 billion.

JC 2K3

PDN wrote: »

The best selling Harry Potter book, Deathly Hallows, has sold somewhere in the region of 77 million copies, well behind Tolkiein's The Lord of the Rings (150 million copies).

The Bible sells 100 million copies every year with total cumulative sales of 5 or 6 billion.

Should have appended your quote, I was talking about the sentence preceeding that.

Oh the perils of misinterpretation!

PDN

MooseJam wrote: »

is the bible copyrighted ? where does the master copy lie, if it's not copyrighted could I publish my own version of the bible, is it OK to make money selling bibles, surely selling the word of god is a big no no.

It depends which translation you want to sell. I understand that copyright law says the copyright expires 50 years after the death of an author. Assuming that applies to translators as well, you are safe enough to print and sell the King James Version, but not modern translations like the NIV where many of the translators are still alive.

I see no problem with making money out of selling Bibles. I'm sure it's better in God's sight than selling porn.

Galvasean

So what you are saying PDN is... God is dead?

PDN

Galvasean wrote: »

So what you are saying PDN is... God is dead?

No, but the translation committee of 1611 probably are by now.

Zombrex

Galvasean wrote: »

So what you are saying PDN is... God is dead?

Not sure Christians ever claimed God physically wrote the Bible :pac:

Pompey Magnus

Wicknight wrote: »

Not sure Christians ever claimed God physically wrote the Bible :pac:

No, but some believe he employed ghostwriters to do it for him.

iUseVi

Wicknight wrote: »

Not sure Christians ever claimed God physically wrote the Bible :pac:

AFAIK only the ten commandments on the stone tablets. But not the bible.

kowloon

I know the Jehovas Witnesses say the bible was written by god through the medium of men.

Akrasia

PDN wrote: »

The best selling Harry Potter book, Deathly Hallows, has sold somewhere in the region of 77 million copies, well behind Tolkiein's The Lord of the Rings (150 million copies).

The Bible sells 100 million copies every year with total cumulative sales of 5 or 6 billion.

How many copies of 'the dictionary' are sold every year?

(I'd say just as many people read it cover to cover as read the bible)

There are loads of different versions of dictionaries, but there are loads of different versions of the bible too, and all are included in the '100 million a year' figure.

PDN

The Christian position is that God inspired the Biblical writers but that their different personalities are recognisable - ruling out any idea of mechanical dictation.