Love of maths only increased by the girl in the examiner

PurpleFistMixer

turgon wrote: »

Yes. Leaving cert Irish and English are so useful for general communication. I mean every time I approach someone its not "hello" I say, its "well don't you think the negative Imagery that is suffused in Larkins poetry to be so intense.". Or I love the way I could more easily talk about the themes in some stupid Irish poem than ask for a box of corn flakes "as gailege".

As Leaving Cert maths is entirely useless in an everyday setting also. Yes Maths is useful, but only if you specialise in it. And if you specialise in English/Irish, then such skills will be similarly useful.

In fact I would say English/Irish skills are more likely to be useful in a casual setting than maths. Of course, it depends on what you're friends like, but a command of argumentative language is, as this thread among others surely proves, a useful and everyday skill.

irishbucsfan

turgon wrote: »

Yes. Leaving cert Irish and English are so useful for general communication. I mean every time I approach someone its not "hello" I say, its "well don't you think the negative Imagery that is suffused in Larkins poetry to be so intense.". Or I love the way I could more easily talk about the themes in some stupid Irish poem than ask for a box of corn flakes "as gailege".

You really dont think maths is the exact same?

Where is the dailly application by the average member of our nation of differentiation or Simpson's rule? And that's only Ordinary level maths.

Yes I realise the importance of maths and understand where you're coming from, but to place it above English (not Irish, thats just irrelevant:D) a mistake.

Timee

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Where is the dailly application by the average member of our nation of differentiation or Simpson's rule?

Everywhere.

Diarmsquid

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Two people are told to build a wall, and are given all the tools and materials. Neither have any experience in construction.

The first is one of the "rote learners." He doesn't possess any amazing natural logic or abilities, so he goes home for the night and looks everything up, and learns the techniques off by heart. He comes back the next day and builds the wall.

The second is Eoin up there, he's a bright lad and has a natural affinity for problem solving and the like. He spends an hour looking at the materials and equipment and works out the correct way to build the wall on his own. His abilities help him to build the wall to a perfectly similar way to the first builder.

Both of them built the wall (granted the first guy was a day late, but we'll ignore that). So in the end it all comes out in the wash. I think what Eoin is really trying to say is that the people who both possess the natural abilities and the work ethic deserve to be regarded in a higher light than those who just possess the work ethic. And thats fair enough.

That's a good sum up of the whole arguement.

Didn't there use to be bonus CAO points for doing Honours Maths? It was possible to get 140 from it? I know there's a course in UL that still do it, but I think I remember hearing that at one stage everyone got bonus CAO points for doing honours Maths, regardless of whether or not there course was maths centered.

My guess is that people started complaining that it's unfair to give extra points to the mathimatically skilled people, and not to the people good at Irish or Geography or Business.

But as stated already in this thread, Honours Maths is a very hard subject and it does require the student to be able to think and logically work problems out in their head, and these are the skills that will benefit us later in life, in college, in the workplace, and at home, so why not treat the subject differently?

turgon

Corruptedmorals wrote: »

Well actually, "But they are doing OL Maths" does imply that you sneer at people who do OL Maths.

Ok so me stating they are doing OL is sneering at them. In that case, you saying that I said that is sneering at me. I dont know how but that appears to be your logic.


No doubt in general English is more important than maths, I mean you cant communicate in formula and equations! But by the time were in Leaving Cert we can all (hopefully!) speak English properly. The LC just makes us write and practice more, and increasingly in later years widen our vocabulary. So although English is very important, LC English is not as important.

The same could not be said of Maths. The maths we learn at LC, whether OL of HL, is so important. Think of all the areas where maths is used - engineering, medicine, finance, economics etc etc, areas which all draw on an advanced mathematic mind. The leaving cert is the foundation of this, that is why I would say LC Maths is more important that LC English.

Now where does differentiation come into the lives of normal people? Go to your fridge and take out your carton of orange juice - the tetra pack thing - or any other form of bottle. The design of that isnt just thrown together, differentiation is used to find the maximum amount of liquid that can be held for the least amount of cardboard. Reducing cost as a result.

Cokehead Mother

turgon wrote: »

The same could not be said of Maths. The maths we learn at LC, whether OL of HL, is so important. Think of all the areas where maths is used - engineering, medicine, finance, economics etc etc, areas which all draw on an advanced mathematic mind. The leaving cert is the foundation of this, that is why I would say LC Maths is more important that LC English.

History, Law, Psychology...

It's almost as if English is highly useful for several fields and Maths is highly useful for several other fields! :eek:

turgon wrote: »

Now where does differentiation come into the lives of normal people? Go to your fridge and take out your carton of orange juice - the tetra pack thing - or any other form of bottle. The design of that isnt just thrown together, differentiation is used to find the maximum amount of liquid that can be held for the least amount of cardboard. Reducing cost as a result.

You can drink orange juice without using calculus. Differentiation comes into the production of orange juice cartons, in the same way that English comes into the production of newspapers, films and stuff.

colly10

turgon wrote: »

Secondly a hatred of the fact that a lot of people (like the leprechaun in the Examiner) that do really good in the Leaving Cert arent normally overly bright, they just go to these fancy collages and soak up study techniques, where learning how to memorize is more important than learning the information itself. Where the subject doesnt matter, only how many points can be harvested thereof. What a lovely word to finish on.

Totally agree, learning stuff off is no real sign of being perticularly bright. It's really just the people who put the work in (like memorise half they're history book) that will do the best. Thats waht I never liked about the LC. It's different in some college courses though and this is where some would be found out. Like coding for example, I was allowed to bring the book into some exams as it wasn't a memory test and the book wouldn't really help, ye either understood it or ye didn't

PurpleFistMixer

You're illustrating how people with maths skills have influenced the lives of normal people. Not where normal people have used their own maths skills to in some way enhance or even effect their life. Now I love maths, and I think it's fantastic, but you have to admit that unless you go on to study maths/engineering/etc. you're never realistically going to need to derive the Maclaurin Series of inverse tan, or whatever.

To go and say "the use of Maths beyond the leaving cert is more important than the use of English beyond the leaving cert" is an entirely different debate between the worth of humanities and sciences and is maybe not suited for the LC board.

And to continue on with your orange juice example... who was it that influenced you to buy that in the first place? Who was behind the marketing and advertisement, who had the persuasive skills to get that juice into your fridge? Yes, maths is important but it's not the only ability of any worth or importance.

What LC Maths does teach is as Diarmsquid said, an analytical nature and problem solving skills. (Though to what degree it succeeds in teaching such if so many rote learn, I don't know.) Of course, the same could be said of many LC subjects.

Cateym

JC 2K3 wrote: »

The difference between people who are good at maths and those who are good at other areas is that those who are good at maths are usually as good at the other areas too.

That is the greatest loads of sh*te I have ever read. I knew a good few people who were very mathematical yet a good grade in English was beyond their grasp.

When I was in LC a few classmates and I were discussing how well the previous LC class had done. The highest was something like 580 and one girl said the words "but she did pass maths". I thought it was the snobbiest thing I had ever heard and challenged her on it. Pathetic.

BMH

turgon wrote: »

One more comment before I leave-

This world as we know it, and our civilization, was built by the minda of great thinkers, such as the ancient Greeks (Pythagoras) and the Newtons of our species. These innovators didn't go home at night and memorize the work of others. Rather they grappled with the problem at hand, and went on to create new knowledge through new thinking. If we were all rote learners our society would be stuck in a limbo - to obsessed with memorizing past information already thought about for too long.

What about the world of literature? What about Joyce, Beckett, Camus? You're pointing to one field and saying that it's more important than the rest. This is false. You're pointing to one group of people, and stating that they're better than the rest. This, too, is false. The very fact that your whole premise is based on the inaccurate statement that those that are good at maths also excel in other fields undoes the already broken logic you've tried to employ. You are not going to be the next Pythagoras, you will not make any memorable contribution to society, no more than the people around you. The sooner you realise that, the sooner you might discover the beautiful release literature can offer, something far greater than the sense of superiority that maths has bestowed on you.

turgon

BMH wrote: »

What about the world of literature? What about Joyce, Beckett, Camus? You're pointing to one field and saying that it's more important than the rest. This is false. You're pointing to one group of people, and stating that they're better than the rest. This, too, is false. The very fact that your whole premise is based on the inaccurate statement that those that are good at maths also excel in other fields undoes the already broken logic you've tried to employ. You are not going to be the next Pythagoras, you will not make any memorable contribution to society, no more than the people around you. The sooner you realise that, the sooner you might discover the beautiful release literature can offer, something far greater than the sense of superiority that maths has bestowed on you.

BMH, powerful and all that literature can be, I doubt it has had the contribution to civilization as maths has. Its has not:

• Aided in the invention of mass transport - the automobile, ships, trains and aircraft
• Enabled us to go into space
• Enabled us to build up world economic and financial markets
• Helped in building the machines, such as mass printing presses and sound recording systems, to spread literature to the masses
• Built huge buildings and structures that are above all the hallmark of our civilization
• Brought about computing

First of all, I never claimed maths people were superior to others, nor that they were good at other fields. I have never said that people good at maths are superior to others. I said that it was my belief that leaving cert maths is one of the best subjects in lc. Everyone has been making claims that I am mocking OL people, I am not, and I cant find where these claims stem from.

Secondly, I like reading too, and poetry, so I know how fulfilling it can be. Maths can be as fulfilling as well when you, for example, solve an exceptionally hard sum.

Finally, claiming that I cannot be the next Pythagoras, or make any memorable contribution to society is very bitter of you, and lacks the optimism that we all should have. I don't intend on becoming a "check-out-chick", so saying that I never will have an affect on anyone is silly. What if say I landed a job in some mech eng firm designing cars of the future. Would that not be having an effect on society?

EmmetF

A few points, don't wanna quote cos of effort.

Maths is the shinz, most engineering is based on differentiation and integration. Anything that is ever made must be engineered or it will fall down (FACT)

Nice summary Pikey, totally agree! Mwhahaha I know you're there pikey...

Finally, this is madness.

brazilicious

EmmetF wrote: »

Finally, this is madness.

nuff said!

turgon

EmmetF wrote: »

Finally, this is madness.

Too true. If there are any mods in the vicinity I as the OP would like you to end this thread!!!!!

KnifeWRENCH

BMH wrote: »

You are not going to be the next Pythagoras, you will not make any memorable contribution to society, no more than the people around you. The sooner you realise that, the sooner you might discover the beautiful release literature can offer, something far greater than the sense of superiority that maths has bestowed on you.

Lol, that's a load of crap. You cannot say he/she will never have a memorable impact on society, they could make some mathematical breakthrough! You're showing just as much snobbery there you know.

turgon wrote:

I have never said that people good at maths are superior to others. I said that it was my belief that leaving cert maths is one of the best subjects in lc. Everyone has been making claims that I am mocking OL people, I am not, and I cant find where these claims stem from.

Hmmm....I wonder:

BTW, that sentence gives me great satisfaction. They can memorize all the want, but when it comes to actually being knowledgeable, they cannot cope.

:rolleyes:

turgon wrote:

I don't intend on becoming a "check-out-chick", so saying that I never will have an affect on anyone is silly.

There you go with the condescending attitude again. If there were no "check-out-chicks" there'd be no-one to serve you in a supermarket and you'd have no groceries.

On another note turgon, fair play for editing your original post

KnifeWRENCH

turgon wrote: »

Too true. If there are any mods in the vicinity I as the OP would like you to end this thread!!!!!

Aw, I like arguing

turgon

"BTW, that sentence gives me great satisfaction. They can memorize all the want, but when it comes to actually being knowledgeable, they cannot cope."
That has nothing to do with OL maths. That has to do with rote learners.

square_igloo wrote: »

There you go with the condescending attitude again. If there were no "check-out-chicks" there'd be no-one to serve you in a supermarket and you'd have no groceries.

Ah but you see square_igloo, the mathematicians of our time have invented a great machine - the self service checkout!!!! Only messing, I know where your coming from. I am getting so tired of this conversation though!! Sorry for being condescending, I am just way to honest in the way I express myself. And it definitely does not do me any favours.

Davidius

This does remind me of the time in History when somebody openly admitted that he thought everybody who did HL maths was at least somewhat insane and a potential serial killer.

I later found out that he was in fact, not joking.

guapa

turgon wrote: »

Maybe some people should realize that they are not deserving of their course. Not saying you are....

Two twins in my Maths class, probably the worst few in the class. D or C they will get. Only do 2 or 3 honours. Yes they want to do Maths Science in UCC (480 points, B3 min for honours maths). I dont know if that is relevant but it annoys me anyway.


One can do good in the LC by being naturally bright. Sorry if I sound cocky, but I dont do heaps of study and I still do great.

just cause someone isnt a walking genius theres no reason to not wish them to fulfil dreams lik if they want 2 do maths fair play 2 them! what they get or how they do shouldnt matter to u atal!!Being good at maths and loving maths are 2 very different things and if you love somethin u should do it regardless of your ability. . the majority of med students fail in their first year. . that doesnt stop them from being great doctors!!

Rosstafarian

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I do OL Maths, yet its always been one of my best subjects.

I will get an A1, and take my 60 points.


The reason I dropped is that out of the 68,500 people doing the LC this year, I'd say I'm among the laziest 500, and I was afraid that if I did HL I wouldnt work and risk failing. I agree with you though on pretty much everything you say. I detest the Leaving Cert for the way it rewards those that can remember things best, rather than those who can break down the questions and use their understanding of the subjects and their own natural ability to answer them properly.

I suppose the system we have will do, but I wish we had a better system.

Exactly.

orangetictac

majority???

only joshin ya!

Rosstafarian

I have my methods of studying. Other people have their methods of studying. If you don't like my method, that's absolutely fine, just don't tell me it's wrong.
Especially just because you are worried that I will get higher grade. That's just pathetic.

For the record I am not one of the memorisers, it just annoys me when people think they are better because they feel like they are authentic in some way.
The leaving cert, if about nothing else, is about getting the points you need. If you turn it into some kind of medium to demonstrate you're natural ability then that's you're decision. And a poor one, if you don't mind me saying.

cHaTbOx

Rosstafarian wrote: »

I have my methods of studying. Other people have their methods of studying. If you don't like my method, that's absolutely fine, just don't tell me it's wrong.
Especially just because you are worried that I will get higher grade. That's just pathetic.

For the record I am not one of the memorisers, it just annoys me when people think they are better because they feel like they are authentic in some way.
The leaving cert, if about nothing else, is about getting the points you need. If you turn it into some kind of medium to demonstrate you're natural ability then that's you're decision. And a poor one, if you don't mind me saying.

here here.Real brains talent insight and intelligence will be shown in the course you do in collegebecause you will apply yourself and so will others around you.You my excell in some fields and stumble in others. I use many studying techniques as so things are harder to grasp than others

kangaroo

I agree with a lot of what Turgon said about maths (but not all of what was said).
In intelligence tests (for example), you have tests of three aspects: verbal ability, mathematical ability and visual-spatial (or some term like that) ability. The Leaving Cert doesn't seem to be a very good way of measuring these abilities.

But it isn't necessarily the fault of the students - it's best to deal with what's put in front of you and, like the analogy of building the wall, if you can build the wall one way or another, that's better than giving up. And hard-work is an important trait for success in college and life.

But that doesn't mean the Leaving Cert or entry to college shouldn't be reformed in some way.

I'd like if aptitude tests were used more; for one thing, it would mean more students are matched up to courses they are good at. Leaving Cert points could be added to scores in some or all aptitude tests. And there could be a weighting for some subjects e.g. scores in mechanical reasoning could be multiplied by 1.5 (say) for engineering.

A similar suggestion would be that there would be a greater usage of bonus points for relevant subjects.
The problem with this is that not everyone does all the subjects making it difficult.

Being good at maths won't necessarily translate to, say, the ability to learn new languages - I know a lot of people who are good at maths but there would be a good percentage of the population better than them at learning new languages. So being good at maths does, I think, measure one type of intelligence but not necessarily all of them.

Of course, some people doing OL maths probably have very good mathematical ability but for one reason or another got a bit lost along the way. It's a pity there aren't more facilities (e.g. one-to-one tuition) so that people could fill in any gaps they had in maths (for example).

kangaroo

Diarmsquid wrote: »

Didn't there use to be bonus CAO points for doing Honours Maths? It was possible to get 140 from it? I know there's a course in UL that still do it, but I think I remember hearing that at one stage everyone got bonus CAO points for doing honours Maths, regardless of whether or not there course was maths centered.

Yes, that was the case.

Personally I don't think it was the worst thing: at the moment, most people have to do three languages (English, Irish & another one) regardless of whether the course you want to do involves much language usage.

People would of course need a basic ability to read and write in English. One suggestion I'd have would be for there to be a basic test in English language, that wasn't counted for points and then people had the option of doing English Literature as an extra subject. Or if you got a certain mark in your J. Cert English, that would be enough evidence that you could read and write in English.

eoin2nc

This thread still going?

Why does it matter anymore, the vast majority of posters here will never do maths again

raah!

I like maths. LoLzzzzzzz

(100th post)

Calorimeterman

eoin2nc wrote: »

This thread still going?

Why does it matter anymore, the vast majority of posters here will never do maths again

I'm doing engineering in college next year, and the year after that, and the year after that and the year after that. The year after that however, I will probably be an actual engineer until the day I retire...

I'll be doing maths that is twice as hard as the stuff I did on the honours leaving cert until the day I die...

Isn't that a thought? I wish that honours maths wasn't a requirement for engineering, it would have been fun to watch loads of people drop down to "pass" because the maths was too tough

turgon

kangaroo wrote: »

Being good at maths won't necessarily translate to, say, the ability to learn new languages

Your telling me!!! Got A1 in honours maths for the pre, got a D in pass irish in the pre. Its because I'm too lazy to put my mind to things I dont want to do.

I just broke 500 posts today in boards.ie. If there was one thing I could change it would be to have never started this stupid thread!

Big Ears

turgon wrote: »

I just broke 500 posts today in boards.ie. If there was one thing I could change it would be to have never started this stupid thread!

Well then you haven't done too badly then I suppose .