Is diesel dead?

Robertr

Interesting article from WhatCar?

http://www.whatcar.com/news-special-report.aspx?NA=233064

Just did a bit of analysis on my own petrol car versus the similar diesel. The results are that you would have to drive 170,000 kms before you make your money back on the diesel!!! That does not include servicing costs etc...

Car 2.0 FSI Highline 150 BHP
2006 Value €23,000
Price Per Litre 1.24
l/100km 8.5


Car 2.0 TDI Highline 140Bhp
2006 Value €27,950 (Cheapest on Carzone.ie)
Price Per Litre 1.32
l/100km 5.8

Food for thought.

patrickc

Robertr wrote: »

Interesting article from WhatCar?

http://www.whatcar.com/news-special-report.aspx?NA=233064

Just did a bit of analysis on my own petrol car versus the similar diesel. The results are that you would have to drive 170,000 kms before you make your money back on the diesel!!! That does not include servicing costs etc...

Car 2.0 FSI Highline 150 BHP
2006 Value €23,000
Price Per Litre 1.24
l/100km 8.5


Car 2.0 TDI Highline 140Bhp
2006 Value €27,950 (Cheapest on Carzone.ie)
Price Per Litre 1.32
l/100km 5.8

Food for thought.

where are you getting diesel at 1.32 i haven'r seen it cheaper than 1.40 lately

Robertr

I just took the AA prices for Feb 08.

patrickc

Robertr wrote: »

I just took the AA prices for Feb 08.

ya may recalculate at 1.40ish a litre now so ,

listermint

What about CO2 output you could be saving with the new tax system. Alot of the diesels ive looked at have much lower CO2 outputs than camparible and smaller petrols....

NinjaTruncs

How can anyone say iesel is dead?
using the l/100km figures you give, diesel would have to be about 40% dearer than petrol based on efficiency alone for it to be considered a bad option. Also with the new VRT rates diesel cars are pretty much the same cost as petrol and will have lower road tax than petrol

Robertr

NinjaTruncs wrote: »

How can anyone say iesel is dead?
using the l/100km figures you give, diesel would have to be about 40% dearer than petrol based on efficiency alone for it to be considered a bad option. Also with the new VRT rates diesel cars are pretty much the same cost as petrol and will have lower road tax than petrol

Not true in my example as you have to account fthe price of the car itself.

I reserve judgement on the new system when I see it in action. I'd be suprised if the manufacturers/dealers don't do something on the price of petrol cars also. It will all come back to supply and demand in the end and the bigger the demand for the diesel cars the more they will charge and the more diesel cars out there the more diesel will cost versus pertol.

I'm not saying that I think diesel is dead but it is definitively a space worth watching.

Zube

Robertr wrote: »

the bigger the demand for the diesel cars the more they will charge

That must be why Audi just lopped €7K off a diesel A6.

Robertr

Zube wrote: »

That must be why Audi just lopped €7K off a diesel A6.

I'm talking long term - everyone knows that new diesels are much cheaper and there will be a big hit on second hand values over the next month or so.

Zube

Zube wrote: »

That must be why Audi just lopped €7K off a diesel A6.

Or perhaps its because its impossible to sell cars so far this year.

bazz26

Lets be clear here.

Car manufacturers are not knocking thousands off the price of their cars. It is the Government who is, by reducing the rate of VRT on the car due to basing the VRT on emmissions rather than engine size. This makes the recommended retail price cheaper or more expensive depending on the car in question.

mickdw

bazz26 wrote: »

Lets be clear here.

Car manufacturers are not knocking thousands off the price of their cars. It is the Government who is, by reducing the rate of VRT on the car due to basing the VRT on emmissions rather than engine size. This makes the recommended retail price cheaper or more expensive depending on the car in question.

Not true either. See new audi a5 1.8T petrol price, vrt reduction = 500 euro. Price reduction come july 4,900 euro just to compete with bmw

Marcus.Aurelius

In response to OP:

Based on a new car price: Yes, it will take some time before you will break even owing to higher initial price vs. higher mpg.

Based on secondhand car price: Diesel (economically speaking) is cheaper in the medium to long term as the difference in price subsides quite a bit.

Stevie Dakota

I find is fascinating that everytime this debate comes up no-one mentions that not only are modern diesels more economical but they offer arguably better performance than their petrol counterparts thanks to bags of torque. Who cares about 0-60 around town, its 50-120 on the motorway that matters.

For me diesel a win win, THAT is why I would pay more for a diesel, not simply the economy.

JHMEG

Stevie Dakota wrote: »

I find is fascinating that everytime this debate comes up no-one mentions that not only are modern diesels more economical but they offer arguably better performance than their petrol counterparts thanks to bags of torque. Who cares about 0-60 around town, its 50-120 on the motorway that matters.

For me diesel a win win, THAT is why I would pay more for a diesel, not simply the economy.

And then someone else comes along and says well petrol cars have gearboxes, and if you're too lazy to change gears you should have bought and automatic, and that drop a cog or two in a petrol and watch the diesel in your rearview mirror...

We've been though this before, loads of times. Petrol is quicker, end of.

Gumbo

patrickc wrote: »

where are you getting diesel at 1.32 i haven'r seen it cheaper than 1.40 lately

1.33 in Harolds Cross

maidhc

JHMEG wrote: »

And then someone else comes along and says well petrol cars have gearboxes, and if you're too lazy to change gears you should have bought and automatic, and that drop a cog or two in a petrol and watch the diesel in your rearview mirror...

We've been though this before, loads of times. Petrol is quicker, end of.

No.

If you look at E92s posts you will observe that at from july the Focus 1.8TDCI with 115bhp will be cheaper than the 1.4 with 80bhp. The diesel is also more economical by a million miles and cheaper to tax.

There is no contest for normal cars like this.

JHMEG

maidhc wrote: »

No.

If you look at E92s posts you will observe that at from july the Focus 1.8TDCI with 115bhp will be cheaper than the 1.4 with 80bhp. The diesel is also more economical by a million miles and cheaper to tax.

There is no contest for normal cars like this.

Compare a 1.8 diesel versus a similar power petrol, not a 1.8 turbo diesel against a wheezy 1.4 that's an underperformer to begin with!

peasant

JHMEG wrote: »

Compare a 1.8 diesel versus a similar power petrol, not a 1.8 turbo diesel against a wheezy 1.4 that's an underperformer to begin with!

no, no ..not the diesel v petrol thingy again ...

Technically speaking, you're of course right ...but maidhc has a point:

Due to the wonderful tax system now, the smallest petrol is more expensive then the smallest diesel ...so in this case the diesel car clearly wins. (Strictly from a "what should I buy for my money" point of view)

maidhc

JHMEG wrote: »

Compare a 1.8 diesel versus a similar power petrol, not a 1.8 turbo diesel against a wheezy 1.4 that's an underperformer to begin with!

Why not just compare the Focus against an M3 as we are at it...

If you have 20something k in your pocket then your choice is a 1.8TDCi or a 1.4 Petrol. Even a 1.6 Petrol won't have the beating of the TDCI, you will be heading for a 2.0 petrol.

deRanged

maidhc wrote: »

If you have 20something k in your pocket then your choice is a 1.8TDCi or a 1.4 Petrol.

that's certainly the way I'm thinking, coming from the 1.4 petrol. more likely to go with the 1.6hdci but no matter.

JHMEG

maidhc wrote: »

Why not just compare the Focus against an M3 as we are at it...

Why are you bringing the Focus into it? And now the M3? The OP is looking at similar power petrol and diesel cars. My statements are in relation to those.

Johnny Utah

Alcohol-fuelled cars ftw.

As Homer Simpson said; "one for you, one for me, one for you, one for me, etc":D

NinjaTruncs

JHMEG wrote: »

Compare a 1.8 diesel versus a similar power petrol, not a 1.8 turbo diesel against a wheezy 1.4 that's an underperformer to begin with!

The new Bravo should be around the same price for the 1.4 and the 1.9, both are supposed to output 150Bhp, if Fiat pass on the VRT savings they will both cost around the same, diesel could be upto 1000 dearer, but with the fuel efficieny and lower tax the diesel would be the model to go for.

E92

We've been through this whole thing already, and obviously you'd be mad to choose petrol over diesel when often diesels will only be a small bit dearer than petrols because of the VRT changes, I mean why would anyone choose a 1.4 Focus over the 1.8 TDCi when the 1.8 TDCi gives you more of everything(bar refinement and all those smelly particulates and NOx etc) for less, but that is a completely different thing from saying that diesel is better, because if certainly is not as good as petrol on its own, for too many reasons, which I've outlined many a time here.

Under normal circumstances a petrol is better than a diesel of similar power.

JHMEG

Is diesel dead? - Isn't diesel greener?

Not necessarily, no. Economical diesels (such as the Volkswagen Polo Bluemotion) might have you thinking diesel is the 'greener' fuel.

Yes, petrols usually emit more carbon dioxide (CO2), but diesels pump out more local pollutants such as particulates and carbon monoxide. Both can aggravate respiratory and coronary problems. Nitrous oxide (NOx) emissions are higher, too, and this is linked to allergic reactions and acid rain.

Some modern diesels are fitted with filters that reduce particulate emissions, but these aren't fitted to all cars.

E92

mickdw wrote: »

Not true either.

For the most part it is 100% true though.

Don't tell me that Audi trying to be competitive with BMW is a bad thing either.

maidhc

JHMEG wrote: »

Is diesel dead? - Isn't diesel greener?

Not necessarily, no. Economical diesels (such as the Volkswagen Polo Bluemotion) might have you thinking diesel is the 'greener' fuel.

Yes, petrols usually emit more carbon dioxide (CO2), but diesels pump out more local pollutants such as particulates and carbon monoxide. Both can aggravate respiratory and coronary problems. Nitrous oxide (NOx) emissions are higher, too, and this is linked to allergic reactions and acid rain.

Some modern diesels are fitted with filters that reduce particulate emissions, but these aren't fitted to all cars.

But, you see, we (as in the General population) don't care. It is completely academic. The fact you drive one car, you look at the price, then you drive the other car, and you look at the price of that. Unless a person has taken leave of their senses, they will buy a diesel in the current climate.

The reason I picked the focus is because I just saw E92s thread before posting, and it is a good example. Basically, my point is you would need to be a fair nutcase to buy a 1.8/2.0 petrol focus over the 1.8TDCI, the extra expense would just make the decision uneconomic. Sure some people will buy niche cars like the ST and forthcoming RS, but these are niche cars.

It is diesel power for the masses.

JHMEG

maidhc wrote: »

But, you see, we (as in the General population) don't care. It is completely academic. The fact you drive one car, you look at the price, then you drive the other car, and you look at the price of that. Unless a person has taken leave of their senses, they will buy a diesel in the current climate.

The reason I picked the focus is because I just saw E92s thread before posting, and it is a good example. Basically, my point is you would need to be a fair nutcase to buy a 1.8/2.0 petrol focus over the 1.8TDCI, the extra expense would just make the decision uneconomic. Sure some people will buy niche cars like the ST and forthcoming RS, but these are niche cars.

It is diesel power for the masses.

Unfortunately you are correct!

E92

Thank you maidhc for finally admitting that the only reason diesel is better is cost thanks to our Government subsidising the price of a more complex and costly fuel type that happens to be better on one emission(CO2), but much worse for all the emissions that are as bad for us as smoking fags are.

At least fags only kill one person, and it is your choice to try and kill yourself faster, while I've no choice in breathing in diesel fumes and neither does anyone else have that choice in being killed faster and having a less healthy life.

zilog_jones

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Alcohol-fuelled cars ftw.

As Homer Simpson said; "one for you, one for me, one for you, one for me, etc":D

If only it were true - drinking pure ethanol tends to induce loss of... life Also, the stuff they sell here (E85) is still around 15% petrol, which ain't too good for you either.