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Which way will you vote (if at all)

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24567…22

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    #32
    PrivateEye
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,283 ✭✭✭PrivateEye


    I've friends voting Yes and No for silly reasons.

    The Yes-Men (who i've taking to calling treatyites :pac: )

    *Sinn Fein want a no vote
    *Gay Byrne is a moany old bollocks
    *Europe is deadly.

    Some odd Nos

    *Dustin! they robbed Dustin! The bastards.
    *Abortion (I'm pro-choice, so this bugs me no end...)
    ***** the government etc.
    *Wasted my tax money on posters.....


    It'll come down to the wire, but I see it going to Yes sadly.

    I hope the No vote prevails.
    Maybe Eamon Ryan and john Gormley will stop playing Greena Fail and remember how they voted on nice when they step into the polling station :rolleyes:


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    #33
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,801 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Just to lay down a marker here, as people will be attracted by a sitewide announcement:

    This is a subforum of Politics, and Politics rules apply.

    If you're not sure what those rules are, go find out before posting.

    A supplemental rule that we're applying to Lisbon discussions is: no soapboxing. Any further comments along the lines of this post will be met with severe disapproval.


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    #34
    minidazzler
    Registered Users Posts: 14,739 ✭✭✭✭minidazzler


    I am voting YES. Basically because while I may not fully understand the Treaty, I absolutely hate Scare Tactics so with Sinn Fein(well in honestly the should call them selves Me Fein) Saying No with scare tactics. I am voting Yes.


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    #35
    Rb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭Rb


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    Just like the 50% of American's who said they'd head for Canada if Bush got back in?
    Meh.

    This whole debacle has caused me to lose the majority of my trust in the EU. Threats left, right and centre and not just from nobodies, from French and German politicians, from our own politicians...even the EU president!


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    #36
    NextSteps
    Registered Users Posts: 984 ✭✭✭NextSteps


    JodJunior wrote: »
    PEOPLE DIED FOR YOUR FREEDOM - like paddy parse and james connoly if ye vote yes that rising of 1916 was nothing - VOTE NO

    Never heard of him.


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    #37
    nag
    Registered Users Posts: 410 ✭✭nag


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    PrivateEye wrote: »
    *450 million people without a vote...thats not democracy. France and Holland voted no to the bast majority of this document.
    When did this happen? France passed the treaty with a huge majority, Holland by 3 to 1 majority. If you're talking about Libertas's "95% of the Lisbon Treaty was rejected in the form of the constitution..." spiel, how come when they changed just 5% of the text it got accepted by huge majority?

    The reason it was passed was because when they revamped the EU Constitution into the Lisbon Treaty, they didn't put it to a second referendum. Instead, their parliament ratified it, bi-passing the people. How on earth can you call that democracy?


    (As posted above...) Correct me if I'm wrong but this is taken from the comments on the Lisbon Treaty:
    "Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly"
    "All the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way."

    -Valery Giscard d'Estaing, author of the original Lisbon Constitution
    Why does this not ring alarm bells with the yes voters? It's blatant deceit.

    At any rate, it won't matter a damn what the outcome of the vote is because the EU Parliament already rejected an amendment which stated that the EU would respect the outcome of the Irish vote, implying that the Lisbon Treaty is going through no matter what.



    @minidazzler: I can't see how you would condemn one side of the debate when both sides are just as bad as each other. Regardless of who might be right or wrong, when there's a yes/no vote on something, the yes side is always going to try and paint a rosey picture of the future to try and (edit: ) get you to vote yes, while the no side will always try prey on your fears and doubt to get you to vote no. It's inevitable.
    (I know that's a generalisation and probably not fitting for every debate but it sure does for this one)
    If I were you, instead of blindly voting yes just on how one side has run their campaign, read up on the treaty and make a well informed, educated decision.


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    #38
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,801 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    nag wrote: »
    Why does this not ring alarm bells with the yes voters?
    Because it's a single quote taken out of context from an English translation of a French source.
    At any rate, it won't matter a damn what the outcome of the vote is because the EU Parliament already rejected an amendment which stated that the EU would respect the outcome of the Irish vote, implying that the Lisbon Treaty is going through no matter what.
    And round and round and round and round we go, with the same old tired crap.

    This has been addressed approximately four hundred million times already on this forum alone.
    Regardless of who might be right or wrong, when there's a yes/no vote on something, the yes side is always going to try and paint a rosey picture of the future to try and fool you into voting yes, while the no side will always try prey on your fears and doubt to get you to vote no.
    Nicely balanced.
    If I were you, instead of blindly voting yes just on how one side has run their campaign, read up on the treaty and make a well informed, educated decision.
    I strongly recommend you take your own advice.


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    #39
    Malice
    Registered Users Posts: 15,065 ✭✭✭✭Malice


    I'm voting No basically as a Fuck You to the government. I thought they would have learnt after the first Nice treaty that you can't just basically say to the general public "Vote Yes Because We Tell You To". If questioned it essentially amounts to "It's Good For You To Vote Yes".

    The thing is though, I imagine that it will go through one way or another irrespective of how Ireland votes on it.


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    #40
    Irish and Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    molloyjh wrote: »

    "450 million people without a vote"
    They did vote. Their vote was for their Government. Part of the Government mandates were the negotiation and ratification of international treaties. Everything is above board and totally legit with this.

    Rubbish!

    I voted for FF but I'm still voting No! Sure all the main parties are pushing for a yes vote, so if I'm serious about who I'd rather in government, I have to be realistic and vote for a main party somewhere on the list. On a couple of occasions I wanted to send a clear message and voted for an alternative and then FF.

    Now in other countries - Germany had a recent change of government but is still pushing for EU Reform - the same could be said for Spain after its change of government in 2004. It doesn't seem to make a damn difference what governments get in - when it comes to EU matters, they all seem to do basically the same thing. Remember, FG and Lab in government would do exactly as FF are doing now!

    Regards!


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    #41
    BlitzKrieg
    Registered Users Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    If I were you, instead of blindly voting yes just on how one side has run their campaign, read up on the treaty and make a well informed, educated decision.

    What campaign? The government and yes side campaign has been a f*cking disaster of laziness and idiocy.

    But I am still voting yes.

    because I read up on the treaty. 2 weeks ago I was going to vote no, I had the leaflets, I had all the points that have come through here again and again, and I sat down and read them, and double checked them with the treaty and other sources. And I changed my position.

    that sort of backfired on you didnt it?

    I'm voting No basically as a **** You to the government. I thought they would have learnt after the first Nice treaty that you can't just basically say to the general public "Vote Yes Because We Tell You To". If questioned it essentially amounts to "It's Good For You To Vote Yes".

    anyway I can pursade you to save that for the next election or referndum that actually affects our government?


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    #42
    Irish and Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    minidazzler wrote: »
    I am voting YES. Basically because while I may not fully understand the Treaty, I absolutely hate Scare Tactics so with Sinn Fein(well in honestly the should call them selves Me Fein) Saying No with scare tactics. I am voting Yes.

    What makes you think that the other side isn't scare mongering???

    Regards!


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    #43
    Irish and Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    BlitzKrieg wrote: »
    What campaign? The government and yes side campaign has been a f*cking disaster of laziness and idiocy.

    But I am still voting yes.

    because I read up on the treaty. 2 weeks ago I was going to vote no, I had the leaflets, I had all the points that have come through here again and again, and I sat down and read them, and double checked them with the treaty and other sources. And I changed my position.

    that sort of backfired on you didnt it?




    anyway I can pursade you to save that for the next election or referndum that actually affects our government?

    Maybe you should read up: www.euinfo.ie and click the Q&A section in the left column!

    Regards!


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    #44
    Jabcity
    Closed Accounts Posts: 100 ✭✭Jabcity


    Definate No!! Being a part of the "united states of europe" as theyr callin it now is just showin how much we're lettin our cultural identity slip. We already lost our language to the point of near non-existence, the capital is a-wash with multiculturalism its a genuine shock when more than 10 people on the bus speak english! People are probably going to call me narrow minded or racist, but thats what I believe it comes down to, being our own culture and having control on our own country. Its "republic of Ireland" after all, not "Republic of Ireland and Europe"!


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    #45
    Irish and Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    Jabcity wrote: »
    Definate No!! Being a part of the "united states of europe" as theyr callin it now is just showin how much we're lettin our cultural identity slip. We already lost our language to the point of near non-existence, the capital is a-wash with multiculturalism its a genuine shock when more than 10 people on the bus speak english! People are probably going to call me narrow minded or racist, but thats what I believe it comes down to, being our own culture and having control on our own country. Its "republic of Ireland" after all, not "Republic of Ireland and Europe"!

    I'm voting NO myself, but I find your viewpoints rather small minded! The reason I'm voting no is that I want a more democratic, transparent and accountable Europe! No more meetings (European Council for example) behind closed doors!

    Regards!


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    #46
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    Irish and Proud wrote: »
    Maybe you should read up: www.euinfo.ie and click the Q&A section in the left column!

    Regards!

    Ha! I just had a look out of curiosity and on the first question they got the European Court of Human Rights which is part of the Council of Europe and is completely separate from the EU mixed up with the European Court of Justice which is part of the EU. We have been a member of the ECHR for many year in fact it was that court that turned over the statutory rape clause in our constitution last year. Some source that is, full of rubbish.


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    #47
    BlitzKrieg
    Registered Users Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    dont read its section on abortion. its laughable


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    #48
    Irish and Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    UB wrote: »
    Never heard of him.

    OK! Pádraig Pearse!

    Are you happy now??? :mad:

    Regards!


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    #49
    muincav
    Registered Users Posts: 810 ✭✭✭muincav


    Im voting a definite NO!
    one reason for me voting NO is, that I have the FREEDOM to vote no, and I dont have to be told by all the political crooks in this country how I should vote.
    If you all remember they have told us how to vote before (Nice treaty) and when we didnt comply to our allmighty rulers wishes, we had to do it all again...me thinks,,,,Mugabe and Zimbabwe..or am I the only one?


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    #50
    Irish and Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    sink wrote: »
    Ha! I just had a look out of curiosity and on the first question they got the European Court of Human Rights which is part of the Council of Europe and is completely separate from the EU mixed up with the European Court of Justice which is part of the EU. We have been a member of the ECHR for many year in fact it was that court that turned over the statutory rape clause in our constitution last year. Some source that is, full of rubbish.

    Now, did I say the site was perfect?

    Maybe, you should read the rest of it with a slightly less slanted mind and then make an proper judgement!

    Regards!


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    #51
    Irish and Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    muincav wrote: »
    Im voting a definite NO!
    one reason for me voting NO is, that I have the FREEDOM to vote no, and I dont have to be told by all the political crooks in this country how I should vote.
    If you all remember they have told us how to vote before (Nice treaty) and when we didnt comply to our allmighty rulers wishes, we had to do it all again...me thinks,,,,Mugabe and Zimbabwe..or am I the only one?

    Well there's certainly a tint of dictatorship concerning EU politicians IMO!

    One reason why I'm voting NO!

    Regards!


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    #52
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    Irish and Proud wrote: »
    Now, did I say the site was perfect?

    Maybe, you should read the rest of it with a slightly less slanted mind and then make an proper judgement!

    Regards!

    Well it is a very simple well know fact by anybody who has a clue about Europe and European politics. It would be the equivalent of an American thinking we're part of Britain. The fact that they got this wrong shows that don't have a clue, not a single clue!!! I read the rest of the site briefly and it's full of absolute crap just like this. I'm not going to go through it all and refute each part individually because frankly I'm sick of doing similar to other posts/sites and it's not worth the effort. All their claims I have conclusively refuted elsewhere on this board.


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    #53
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    A Stong yes. Some things are bigger than the pettiness and completely unfounded mistruths that have been peddled as "fact" by the No campaign. The treaty in my view is essential for Europe and its evolution;an evolution I strongly believe we should be part of. Whatever way you vote inform yourself on the facts.


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    #54
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    muincav wrote: »
    Im voting a definite NO!
    one reason for me voting NO is, that I have the FREEDOM to vote no, and I dont have to be told by all the political crooks in this country how I should vote.
    If you all remember they have told us how to vote before (Nice treaty) and when we didnt comply to our allmighty rulers wishes, we had to do it all again...me thinks,,,,Mugabe and Zimbabwe..or am I the only one?

    You're probably not the only one, but you are completely wrong. There are some pretty dubious tactics being employed on both sides of this referendum but to compare either of them to a fascist dictator who employs murder, violence, incarceration and intimidation as means to retain power is to severely lose the plot. Get some perspective.

    As for all the "political crooks" as you call them- it's not just the government who are supporting this, it's the opposition too. Perhaps crooks too, but that does not relate to this treaty, it relates to general elections. And while I am constantly disappointed to see Fianna Fail re-elected time and again, I agree with their support of this treaty.


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    #55
    muincav
    Registered Users Posts: 810 ✭✭✭muincav


    is_that_so wrote: »
    A Stong yes. Some things are bigger than the pettiness and completely unfounded mistruths that have been peddled as "fact" by the No campaign. The treaty in my view is essential for Europe and its evolution;an evolution I strongly believe we should be part of. Whatever way you vote inform yourself on the facts.

    Are you just following the party line or have you been totally brainwashed in to thinking this is good for Ireland....you should check out those "mistruths" again and maybe YOU will come across a few facts!


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    #56
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    nag wrote: »
    The reason it was passed was because when they revamped the EU Constitution into the Lisbon Treaty, they didn't put it to a second referendum. Instead, their parliament ratified it, bi-passing the people. How on earth can you call that democracy?

    I can call it democracy because the governments that ratified the treaty were democratically elected. Does the Irish government, an unusually referendum-heavy example of democracy, put every decision to the people? Does that lack of consultation in itself deprive us of our democracy?


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    #57
    BlitzKrieg
    Registered Users Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    Are you just following the party line or have you been totally brainwashed in to thinking this is good for Ireland....you should check out those "mistruths" again and maybe YOU will come across a few facts!

    these *facts* that have been shot down again and again and again and again?


    what I find funny is that you keep throwing the *following the party line* or *brainwashed* arguments yet it seems the people who always rip down these *facts* are the only ones who seem to actually know the treaty? Or the EU for that matter, or hell even our own constitution.


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    #58
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    Irish and Proud wrote: »
    Well there's certainly a tint of dictatorship concerning EU politicians IMO!

    One reason why I'm voting NO!

    Regards!

    Tints? What colour is dictatorship? It'd be a good marker to watch out for in the future. The capacity of the EU to slide into continent-wide dictatorship is limited by so many factors it's barely worth discussing. What baring it has on Lisbon is anyone's guess.


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    #59
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    muincav wrote: »
    Are you just following the party line or have you been totally brainwashed in to thinking this is good for Ireland....you should check out those "mistruths" again and maybe YOU will come across a few facts!

    I respect your position to vote No, even though you feel the need to harangue me into agreeing with you. Please respect mine.


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    #60
    muincav
    Registered Users Posts: 810 ✭✭✭muincav


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    You're probably not the only one, but you are completely wrong. There are some pretty dubious tactics being employed on both sides of this referendum but to compare either of them to a fascist dictator who employs murder, violence, incarceration and intimidation as means to retain power is to severely lose the plot. Get some perspective.

    As for all the "political crooks" as you call them- it's not just the government who are supporting this, it's the opposition too. Perhaps crooks too, but that does not relate to this treaty, it relates to general elections. And while I am constantly disappointed to see Fianna Fail re-elected time and again, I agree with their support of this treaty.

    I know Fine Gael and the other opposition partie are not hectic, but are the not Politicians as in "political crooks"?......Im sure a few of them have been to a Man utd match or 2!
    and as for a dictator like Mugabe, he was actually welcomed with open arms in this country back in 1983 or 1984....so he must of had something in commom with our so called Politicians sometime!


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    #61
    AckwelFoley
    Registered Users Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    it has taken me months to make a decision but i am very much on the YES side.

    The lies and outright manipulation of the facts by the No camaign is laughable.

    Yes is for a better working europe whis IS a "better deal for Ireland"

    Just ask yourselves what are the real motives by each orgaisation promoting a no vote, and you will find none of them if any have a genuine interest what is in the best interest of this country and its economy.

    Refute my post all you want i wont be replying. Ive heard all the arguements the No side come up with.. they lack substance.


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