Which way will you vote (if at all)

IRLConor

Rb wrote: »

No precedent, just that due to you having your own beliefs on the treaty, I doubt your "information" was unbiased.

I didn't lie to her. It wasn't "information" it was information.

I've known the lady all my life. I know that if she had all the information that I have then she'd be an enthusiastic yes.

Irish and Proud

seamus wrote: »

Why are you talking about two quotes which were made well before the Lisbon Treaty was even published, and no doubt are out of context and translated?

It's only a year since those comments were made, but more importantly, they were made between the 2005 French and Dutch votes (rejecting the EU Constitution), and the Lisbon Treaty.

seamus wrote: »

How do propose that anything is "hidden" in a public document. Surely if these "hidden" things were there, then Libertas and others would have shown them to us?

It is said to be an extremely legalistic document with a long list of references and amendments to existing treaties. I've seen documents of such descriptions governing NRA road design (RT... this and RT... that) and to say the least, it's rather cumbersome, though I doubt that making it unreadable would be an objective on the part of the NRA. With this in mind, I can only imagine what the legal EU Lisbon Treaty document must look like, especially when there is a hint of intentional lack of clarity. Well, the document that the commission gave us is an interpretation, so where can we get the real document?

seamus wrote: »

The real document is perfectly readable if you sit down. It's dry and boring, definitely. But not unreadable.

If the real document is perfectly readable, why can't our politicians properly explain it, and especially, why was even the Referendum Commission lost for words when asked to explain an aspect of the document - after all, they are the legal experts.

There's something extremely fishy there!

Regards!

IRLConor

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Conor I don't think anyone wants to say your spreding lies (cause your a moderator and that would be just silly )

I'm not a moderator here. Only in the shooting forums. Here I'm a normal poster subject to the normal rules.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

but your acting like you done this woman a favour........

I did, I gave her all of the information she had wanted to get but hadn't previously been given.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I had a young Finna Failure try and convice me to vote yes, I said look i'll think about voting yes and off she hopped on her merry way....

I wouldn't trust any of them as far as I could throw them. They're politicians (or proto-politicians), right?

drunkmonkey wrote: »

maybe that woman was glad to say yes to get you to go away,

I doubt it, she's an old friend of the family.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It's not right that the yes vote has been shoved down our throats, I hope your on some politicans pay roll!!

I wasn't shoving anything down her throat.

The only consistent lie I've seen being rammed down our throats is "The Treaty is unreadable and incomprehensible" and BOTH sides are saying that!

conkeroo

IRLConor wrote: »

The only consistent lie I've seen being rammed down our throats is "The Treaty is unreadable and incomprehensible" and BOTH sides are saying that!

Then it doesn't say much about the government/opposition who can't or won't elaborate on their supported different points and indeed the Taoiseach who hasn't even read it! Not a good example to set at all.

Call Me Jimmy

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Our Political System trying to ram the yes vote down our throat...

Here's a flash back -

Charlie Haughey - Corrupt who was his side kick
Bertie "I won it on the horses" Ahern, who was Berties side kick Brian "I haven't read, it but Trust us Boys" Cowen...


It's all money money money, and that's why our policticans are pushing for a yes vote, I wonder what Dev would have made of another ammendment to the Constitution?

You think Cowen is corrupt for not reading the treaty cover to cover, even if he fully understands it?
Also what money are you saying is the motivation for Cowen pushing a yes vote?

IRLConor

conkeroo wrote: »

Then it doesn't say much about the government/opposition who can't or won't elaborate on their supported different points and indeed the Taoiseach who hasn't even read it! Not a good example to set at all.

Indeed. I'm absolutely livid that all of our major political parties couldn't be arsed even trying to explain the treaty.

Irish and Proud

sink wrote: »

Please read this post.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=56225113&postcount=19

You are the reason direct democracy does not work!

Now, I don't know if the post is entirely correct, but at least it's a balanced overview of what's happening in relation to the Lisbon Referendum. There is a certain amout of drama and scare mongering, but I when I hear people at work talking about Lisbon, those on the No side tend to be well informed and reasoned, while a lot of those on the Yes side are not sure what they are voting on. They go with the view that Europe has been good for Ireland, so a vote for Europe is automatically is Ireland's best interests.

From the very start, I was very suspicious about the way in which our politicians were brow beating us into a Yes vote for Lisbon. To me, this flouts the priciples of our democracy. I wondered how could I trust these people and what they were telling me.

Also, why do EU negotiations take place behind closed doors - why can't the EU citizens see how their representatives perform - surely this would make bullying on the part of the bigger states a lot more difficult. Now, I was told that Lisbon will do away with negotiations behind closed doors, but the fact remains that Lisbon itself was negotiated behind closed doors. Now, what I think should happen is that a new EU constitution should be negotiated from scratch and in full view of the public. Such a constitution would need to include complete transparency, accountability and democracy. That is where I stand in relation to the EU.

Regards!

Chunky Monkey

I voted yes though personally I don't think we should have been allowed to vote at all. Certainly out of the fifteen member states who were around before the last twelve joined we should have been the least entitled considering our history of basically taking and not giving back.

And 'Ireland's interests'? Are the Irish at all thinking about the interests of the people in the other European countries who provided our 85% of funds for our new roads, improved train stations and schools?

Anyway, I thought the charter of human rights becoming part of European law was a good enough reason alone for voting yes.

Irish and Proud

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Yes, it's all a big sinister conspiracy. You can tell because they announced it in two newspapers.

Are these quotes in the Treaty? Are we voting on them?

Well the first quote is from the person who produced the first draft of the EU constitution, most of which is now redecorated as the Lisbon Treaty. So if the proposed EU laws were initially drafted by a person who seems to think little of democracy, would you not be rather suspicious of the content of the Lisbon Treaty???

...especially when "People will be led to adapt without knowing..." - again, something which came from several sources.

Regards!

IRLConor

Irish and Proud wrote: »

So if the proposed EU laws were initially drafted by a person who seems to think little of democracy, would you not be rather suspicious of the content of the Lisbon Treaty???

No, I'd read it and make up my own mind rather than jump to paranoid conclusions.

Which, surprisingly, is what I did.

Irish and Proud

Chunky Monkey wrote: »

I voted yes though personally I don't think we should have been allowed to vote at all. Certainly out of the fifteen member states who were around before the last twelve joined we should have been the least entitled considering our history of basically taking and not giving back.

And 'Ireland's interests'? Are the Irish at all thinking about the interests of the people in the other European countries who provided our 85% of funds for our new roads, improved train stations and schools?

Anyway, I thought the charter of human rights becoming part of European law was a good enough reason alone for voting yes.

so you'd rather go for some sort of communist state and be told what to do?

drunkmonkey

PrivateEye wrote: »

Quote:
prepared to take the consequences of voting No
The beauty of a No vote...

I'm still laughing, Brilliant!!:D

Chunky Monkey

Communist state? What are you on about?

Irish and Proud

Chunky Monkey wrote: »

And 'Ireland's interests'? Are the Irish at all thinking about the interests of the people in the other European countries who provided our 85% of funds for our new roads, improved train stations and schools?

Get real mate!

How much have we given the EU in terms our fishing waters over the last 15 years? One source says that we lost out on €150bn - if that is true, so much for €8bn!

When dealing with big economies, it's always nothing for nothing!

Irish and Proud

molloyjh wrote: »

Debate with us yes, disagree with us by all means, but keep it civil!

OK mate! I'll be more careful in future!

Regards!

PrivateEye

Theres still time to get out!

Spent the day driving the old neighbours done to the pooling booth....
I hope this treaty is stuffed.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/00657/news-graphics-2008-_657819a.jpg
Brussels,You denied millions a say.
I hope you're told where to go by us at least.

As I said earlier, there were 450 million reasons to vote No today, and as a democrat there was no other option. I'll vote FF in the locals and generals, but this was different.

Ireland held more of a say in the British Parliment in 1905 than we would hold in the EU Parliment with our reduced say. Germany could double her own voting power. This treaty is a shambles, and is wide open to legal interpretation (and they wont ask you to vote on what constitutes X,Y or Z- they'll do it for you)

If we lose, it will be close anyway. I tried to get everyone near me who wanted a say to the polling station today. It's a tragedy half the country did NOT avail of their say, half a billion people were denied.

Votez Non. Theres still time.

Irish and Proud

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Get real mate!

How much have we given the EU in terms our fishing waters over the last 15 years? One source says that we lost out on €150bn - if that is true, so much for €8bn!

When dealing with big economies, it's always nothing for nothing!

aye

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/0407/breaking1.htm

Irish and Proud

PrivateEye wrote: »

Theres still time to get out!

Spent the day driving the old neighbours done to the pooling booth....
I hope this treaty is stuffed.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/00657/news-graphics-2008-_657819a.jpg
Brussels,You denied millions a say.
I hope you're told where to go by us at least.

As I said earlier, there were 450 million reasons to vote No today, and as a democrat there was no other option. I'll vote FF in the locals and generals, but this was different.

Ireland held more of a say in the British Parliment in 1905 than we would hold in the EU Parliment with our reduced say. Germany could double her own voting power. This treaty is a shambles, and is wide open to legal interpretation (and they wont ask you to vote on what constitutes X,Y or Z- they'll do it for you)

If we lose, it will be close anyway. I tried to get everyone near me who wanted a say to the polling station today. It's a tragedy half the country did NOT avail of their say, half a billion people were denied.

Votez Non. Theres still time.

Well, I voted NO - like I said I would!

bauderline

Deleted User wrote: »

aye

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/0407/breaking1.htm

That was the UN not the EU. No chance of getting that sort of thing out of the EU.

[Jackass]

I feel slightly guilty for voting today and not taking the time to properly read up and understand what I was voting on, but I would feel worse if I didn't vote at all.

I voted yes simply because I'm very pro-europe, I want Ireland to continue to gain massive support for our European friends and I think a No vote would lose us a lot of that good will and we would be seen as an obstical in Europe rather than a key player.

On the issues, I think voting in Europe has to be proportionate to populations as this is only fair and is more democratic, and as long as our neutrality is never changed, which this does not effect, I don't have any serious concenrs about any of the issues I've learned about from this treaty.

BJC

Right, all polling stations closed since 10, when do we get the results??

claudiog

BJC wrote: »

Right, all polling stations closed since 10, when do we get the results??

Yep. I stand up till now in the hope to read something...well, is better for me to go sleep: only 6 hrs to wakeup.

Good night.

Time Magazine

BJC wrote: »

Right, all polling stations closed since 10, when do we get the results??

Counting starts at 9am. Estimates start about noon. Result in the afternoon.

cglanton123

where can we get up to date updates on votes 2moro??

claudiog

[Jackass] wrote: »

I feel slightly guilty for voting today and not taking the time to properly read up and understand what I was voting on, but I would feel worse if I didn't vote at all.

I voted yes simply because I'm very pro-europe, I want Ireland to continue to gain massive support for our European friends and I think a No vote would lose us a lot of that good will and we would be seen as an obstical in Europe rather than a key player.

On the issues, I think voting in Europe has to be proportionate to populations as this is only fair and is more democratic, and as long as our neutrality is never changed, which this does not effect, I don't have any serious concenrs about any of the issues I've learned about from this treaty.

I think europeans do not have nothing to say either Irish voted yes or no, I think Irish still remains our friends, anyway.
(even though I hope will win no, it would be a strong sign that europeans, the people, wants have a say)
ciao.

Agent Smith

RTE.IE
IRELAND.COM

cglanton123

what do you think the majority vote will be ! I didnt vote as i am not 18(yet). but im kinda hoping it'll sway to the No side as life in ireland isnt great and i think if there is a yes vote than it'll get worse(sorry guys). FF canvassed(spelling) for a Yes vote!!!! Why would ppl Take Fianna Fael's side after Bertie Ahern cant seem to account for the money in which he "acquired".. and neither can anyone (apparently)!!!!

AtomicHorror

cglanton123 wrote: »

what do you think the majority vote will be ! I didnt vote as i am not 18(yet). but im kinda hoping it'll sway to the No side as life in ireland isnt great and i think if there is a yes vote than it'll get worse(sorry guys). FF canvassed(spelling) for a Yes vote!!!! Why would ppl Take Fianna Fael's side after Bertie Ahern cant seem to account for the money in which he "acquired".. and neither can anyone (apparently)!!!!

It's not really about picking sides in terms of parties. I never vote FF but I voted Yes. The treaty has nothing whatsoever to do with Bertie or his suspicious accounting practices.

cglanton123

true!!! but maybe ppl thought twice about their FINAL vote!!!

Dinner

cglanton123 wrote: »

what do you think the majority vote will be ! I didnt vote as i am not 18(yet). but im kinda hoping it'll sway to the No side as life in ireland isnt great and i think if there is a yes vote than it'll get worse(sorry guys). FF canvassed(spelling) for a Yes vote!!!! Why would ppl Take Fianna Fael's side after Bertie Ahern cant seem to account for the money in which he "acquired".. and neither can anyone (apparently)!!!!

Actually, life in Ireland is pretty damn good as it goes. As for your 'reason' to support the No camp; Bertie Ahern is not Fianna Fáil (in case you hadn't noticed). Also, the majority of the Dail supported the treaty (I've seen the figure 96% being thrown around a lot but haven't seen it confirmed).

I don't care what somebody's vote is, so long that they do it for the right reasons and not because their mammy told them too or because they have some ir/rational dislike of FF/FG/Libertas. Because thats just stupid and sort of makes a mockery of democracy.