Irish Rail (Fridays 17:50 Dublin - Galway)

DjDangerousDave

Hi,

I would just like to inform the public of how badly Irish Rail treated their customers on Friday the 6th June 2008 on the evening service from Dublin - Galway. I am writing this on behalf of my girlfriend.

On the way to the station we heard that a train had broken down on the tracks and delays would be expected. When we got to the station I asked what the situation was and they told me that there would be no delays on that service. This was fine and I saw my girlfriend onto the train. My girlfriend noted to me afterwards that instead of stamping her ticket with the date and time as is usual they simply crossed it with a pen. She feels this is a tactic by Irish Rail which will allow them to deny that she was actually on that service. She also noted that the ticket checker did not board the train as they usually do; at this point she felt they knew something that they were not communicating to the customers.

This is when it gets bad, the train that she was on broke down and all the passengers on her train were asked to board the already packed Westport train. They were not informed of this by an official or an announcement, but by someone that heard it from someone else. This level of communication is farcical.

My girlfriend was reluctant to board the Westport train as she was aware that it does not usually stop in Tullamore (her destination) and when she asked an official they were unable to give her a proper answer and joked about the situation. Even though she was clearly distressed about her circumstances.

She did board the train, as she realised there would be no other arrangements made for the passengers. At this stage there were already people standing on the Westport train so the only room available was standing. She could not find a space to stand in the carriages so she was forced to stand in the area between carriages with 17 other people; she also noted that there were three people in the toilet.

Again she asked if the train would stop in Tullamore and no answer was given. The train did stop in Tullamore station, just about, it was too far behind the platform and she had to scramble through the packed carriage to reach a door that opened onto the platform.

Today I phoned Iarnród Éireann Customer Relations Department and told them the same story I just told you. They looked up their computer systems and told me that my girlfriend is entitled to a 50% discount on that leg of the journey. They say this is because the train was "17.50 Heuston/Galway - 73 late" 73 mins late. The train was 90 mins late arriving at Tullamore station, not 73 as quoted.

They are legally obliged to offer 50% discount when services run more than an hour late and 100% when they are more than 2 hours late. I just feel that they are not taking into account the stress and uncertainty that my girlfriend had to endure on that journey.

I would have liked a full refund on that leg of the journey and some offer of a free ticket for my girlfriend.

I would urge anyone that has been delayed to download this form and fill it out, as I’m sure people forget or are not bothered to claim the money back that they are entitled to. Download Here.

Send the completed form with your ticket to:

Customer Relations Department
Southern and Western
Iarnród Éireann
Heuston Station
Dublin 8

If you wish to make a complaint over the phone call:

01 7034499

Moonbeam

I was on the "18:00" to Cork which was also very delayed leaving Heuston then we got stuck for an hour near Sallins because another train had broken down.
Though the train made up some time and we were only an hour late to Cork.

DjDangerousDave

Moonbeam wrote: »

I was on the "18:00" to Cork which was also very delayed leaving Heuston then we got stuck for an hour near Sallins because another train had broken down.
Though the train made up some time and we were only an hour late to Cork.

Please take my advice and fill out that form and send it along with your ticket. You are entitled to 50% of that leg of the journey. If everyone starts doing it they might take notice!

Dave.

fh041205

DjDangerousDave wrote: »

Please take my advice and fill out that form and send it along with your ticket. You are entitled to 50% of that leg of the journey. If everyone starts doing it they might take notice!

Dave.

I would recommend that you fill out that form whenever you are delayed by more than 60 mins (although bear in mind that there is an administration fee which makes it pointless for cheap journeys or if you're just chancing your arm).

MOH

fh041205 wrote: »

I would recommend that you fill out that form whenever you are delayed by more than 60 mins (although bear in mind that there is an administration fee which makes it pointless for cheap journeys or if you're just chancing your arm).

An administration fee applies if you're looking for a refund for a ticket you didn't use, not for refunds due to service delay/cancellation.

ixoy

Ensure you apply for it at least. I was once on a service that was 90 minutes late - that would have been 50%. However in view of the fact I also had to switch trains due to an Irish Rail screwup, they gave me a 100% refund on that leg of the journey.

fh041205

Now that I think of it, it might be worth your while to go up to Lower Abbey street and talk to someone about it. If I was you I would be very calm and cool about it and they might just give you a full refund. I always found talking to someone face to face better than sending away a letter.

fh041205

MOH wrote: »

An administration fee applies if you're looking for a refund for a ticket you didn't use, not for refunds due to service delay/cancellation.

It does apply for cancellation but i suspect your right about delays.

DjDangerousDave

Thanks for the replys. I might just go in and have a chat with someone as one poster said.

Kingdom

I wouldn't bother, they're the most unhelpful shower you'll ever come across. We were on the 19.15 dublin to galway and it went at snails pace to Newbridge.

One thing I don't understand. I have got trains from Portarlington to Heuston that have been up to 30 mins late arriving in Port arriving in Dublin only 5/10 mins behind schedule.
So this means that either
a) the driver is compromising on passenger safety by speeding or
b) train journey times aren't as efficient as they could be.

Ham'nd'egger

Kingdom wrote: »

I wouldn't bother, they're the most unhelpful shower you'll ever come across. We were on the 19.15 dublin to galway and it went at snails pace to Newbridge.

One thing I don't understand. I have got trains from Portarlington to Heuston that have been up to 30 mins late arriving in Port arriving in Dublin only 5/10 mins behind schedule.
So this means that either
a) the driver is compromising on passenger safety by speeding or
b) train journey times aren't as efficient as they could be.

There is spare time allocated to a train timetable to allow it to make up time in the event of any delays en route; it is called padding. In the case of Dublin bound trains, there is about 10 minutes allowed for delays related to the Kildare project alone, and a little extra on top of that; if there is no reason to delay, then this means you get in earlier.

corktina

isnt it actually called "recovery time?"

KC61

You're quite correct Corktina.

All transport schedules, be they rail, bus, air etc. have recovery time built into the schedule to allow for delays en route. In the case of railways, this could be due to temporary speed restrictions, other trains running late etc.

This is typically about 6-8 minutes, and is usually inserted into the last section of the journey. This explains why for example, Dublin-Galway trains take longer between Athenry and Galway than Galway-Dublin trains, Dublin-Cork trains take longer between Mallow and Cork than Cork-Dublin trains or Mallow-Cork local services. However, in recent years the debate has grown on this, because IÉ have increased the recovery time on some trains (such as Dublin-Cork) by a further 5 minutes to improve reliability. The cynics would say that this is solely to improve performance statistics.

Added to this is the fact that all journeys into and out of Heuston have an additional 10 minutes added to their schedules between Heuston and Sallins to cover for potential speed restrictions arising from the Kildare Route Project, where the line is being four-tracked.

Remember that the timetable is valid for a full year, and while there may not be speed restrictions on the line at one point in time, but they may kick in during the course of the timetable. The schedulers have to plan for this, and as a result insert the recovery time as appropriate. Hence at certain times of the year trains can consistently arrive well ahead of schedule, as the planned works are not in operation, while later in the year the same train would be arriving either on schedule or later.

This explains why a train can leave Portarlington late in the example quoted by Kingdom, and recover much of the time by the time of arriving in Heuston, as presumably there were no speed restrictions en route.

Kingdom

Thanks very much for the responses people, some very useful info obtained there. I'll try to be less cynical in future, provided Irish rail are more reliable.

MOH

KC61 wrote: »

However, in recent years the debate has grown on this, because IÉ have increased the recovery time on some trains (such as Dublin-Cork) by a further 5 minutes to improve reliability. The cynics would say that this is solely to improve performance statistics.

This is solely to improve performance statistics.

KC61

MOH wrote: »

This is solely to improve performance statistics.

And I'd probably agree with them...that sentence was to be read with a degree of sarcasm!

smellyanus

A friend of mine that was travelling to Portlaoise on the 17.25 (which left heuston between 17.45-17.50) was stopped for almost an hour outside Newbridge when the supposedly brokendown train didnt leave heuston until approx 15 minutes after his train.

I got off the 17.50 train in Sallins and noticed that one of the trains staff got off and lit up a fag and didnt seem to be in a rush to go anywhere. I thought that was strange. Where exactly was the train supposed to have broken down? That evening on aertel I saw that it was supposed to have been broken down in Hazelhatch which was impossible.

Also to the best of my knowledge the 17.45 to Westport left Heuston before the 17.50 was stopped between Sallins and Newbridge for almost an hour. Sallins to Newbridge is roughly 7 minutes journey, so at most that train couldnt have been any more than 5 minutes ahead of the 17.50 train.
If I was to hazard a guess I would say that irishrail didnt have anyone to drive the trains on that day so knew in advance to stop the Westport train to transfer over passengers from the Galway train.
Also couple this with the fact that a fella I work with who travels from Athy or Carlow (can never remember which) was told when they arrived for the train at around half 6 in the morning that it had broken down.

So that would mean on that day that
- the Carlow train in the morning broke down
- some other train in the middle of the day broke down near Newbridge
- the Galway train in the evening broke down
- and something was holding up the 17.25 to Portlaoise for nearly an hour.

I dont believe a word Irishrail say, IMO their drivers hiding behind the union wouldnt cover for an absent driver. They had nobody to drive the train to Galway so they pretended it broke down and shoved everyone onto the Westport train.

Victor

smellyanus, did you read this piece?

Moonbeam wrote: »

I was on the "18:00" to Cork which was also very delayed leaving Heuston then we got stuck for an hour near Sallins because another train had broken down. Though the train made up some time and we were only an hour late to Cork.

There aren't enough drivers.

KC61

smellyanus wrote: »

A friend of mine that was travelling to Portlaoise on the 17.25 (which left heuston between 17.45-17.50) was stopped for almost an hour outside Newbridge when the supposedly brokendown train didnt leave heuston until approx 15 minutes after his train.

I got off the 17.50 train in Sallins and noticed that one of the trains staff got off and lit up a fag and didnt seem to be in a rush to go anywhere. I thought that was strange. Where exactly was the train supposed to have broken down? That evening on aertel I saw that it was supposed to have been broken down in Hazelhatch which was impossible.

Also to the best of my knowledge the 17.45 to Westport left Heuston before the 17.50 was stopped between Sallins and Newbridge for almost an hour. Sallins to Newbridge is roughly 7 minutes journey, so at most that train couldnt have been any more than 5 minutes ahead of the 17.50 train.
If I was to hazard a guess I would say that irishrail didnt have anyone to drive the trains on that day so knew in advance to stop the Westport train to transfer over passengers from the Galway train.
Also couple this with the fact that a fella I work with who travels from Athy or Carlow (can never remember which) was told when they arrived for the train at around half 6 in the morning that it had broken down.

So that would mean on that day that
- the Carlow train in the morning broke down
- some other train in the middle of the day broke down near Newbridge
- the Galway train in the evening broke down
- and something was holding up the 17.25 to Portlaoise for nearly an hour.

I dont believe a word Irishrail say, IMO their drivers hiding behind the union wouldnt cover for an absent driver. They had nobody to drive the train to Galway so they pretended it broke down and shoved everyone onto the Westport train.

That particular Friday was a disaster for the railway, but it had nothing to do with a lack of drivers, but was as a result of train failures.

To suggest that IÉ would pretend that a train had broken down is really taking things too far. These are the facts:

There were four failures:
1) Either the Carlow or Portlaoise early commuter failed.
2) The 1435 Kildare-Heuston failed at the Curragh, which then caused single line working for over 2.5 hours, causing a massive knock-on effect on the afternoon/evening services.
3) The 1750 Heuston-Galway failed at Sallins
4) The 1735 Limerick-Heuston failed at Thurles

The failure of the Kildare local service was the main problem as it blocked one track between Kildare and Newbridge, and caused single line working between the two stations. There are safety procedures in these circumstances that must be followed which restrict trains to slow speeds along this section of track.

The train blocked the track for over 2.5 hours and thereby caused serious disruption to all services into and out of Heuston, and had a knock-on effect.

The failure of the 1750, caused more problems to all the trains behind it, and just topped off a very difficult day, but it does not excuse in any way the lack of proper communications between the railway company and its customers.

Red Alert

The Irish Rail timetables are padded to the hilt. In fact there's little need to invest in high-speed stock since they wouldn't get to use it anyway. Heads need to roll at this so-called organization. I'm well aware also that many of the recent train failures are all of the new 22k stock, yet management attribute them to older stock on the radio and claim the problem will go away once the old trains are gone.

Rashers72

KC61 wrote: »

but it does not excuse in any way the lack of proper communications between the railway company and its customers.

IMO Irish Rail communications approach to it's passengers during service failure = HOW TO TURN A PROBLEM..... INTO A DISASTER
Some consultant is going to earn a fortune teaching the staff to start using the PA systems that they have already spend millions on, but can't be bothered to use.
The best one is the fortune that was spent getting on board PA systems on the Dublin suburban services, which are capable of letting CTC make announcements directly to the passengers. Has anyone ever heard these being used by CTC? As a daily commuter, I certainly have not. :mad:

PS - not sure if CTC can make similar direct announcements on all services. If so, it makes them look even more inefficient.

fh041205

Rashers72 wrote: »

IMO Irish Rail communications approach to it's passengers during service failure = HOW TO TURN A PROBLEM..... INTO A DISASTER
Some consultant is going to earn a fortune teaching the staff to start using the PA systems that they have already spend millions on, but can't be bothered to use.
The best one is the fortune that was spent getting on board PA systems on the Dublin suburban services, which are capable of letting CTC make announcements directly to the passengers. Has anyone ever heard these being used by CTC? As a daily commuter, I certainly have not. :mad:

PS - not sure if CTC can make similar direct announcements on all services. If so, it makes them look even more inefficient.

Never heard about onboard announcements before. Are you sure they can do that??? CTC can make announcements in any station and that has certainly been done before.

jjbrien

fh041205 wrote: »

Never heard about onboard announcements before. Are you sure they can do that??? CTC can make announcements in any station and that has certainly been done before.

Come on IE does not know how to use the ctc properly :rolleyes: They let it do announcments in Connolly and its a joke. "The next train on Platform 7 is the 6:55 to Mullingar" Then you hear "the train now approaching platform 5 is the 6:55 to mullingar" sound familur to anyone?

P_1

Slightly OT but I remember a year or 2 back somebody graffitied the platform at Balbriggan with "No more s.h.i.t. train service". I think it lasted about 2 days:D
Seriously though IE really need to take a lesson on PR. I think some station offices close around 7 in the evenings with the last trains being at 12. During the summer sometimes they close at 6.

KC61

Rashers72 wrote: »

IMO Irish Rail communications approach to it's passengers during service failure = HOW TO TURN A PROBLEM..... INTO A DISASTER
Some consultant is going to earn a fortune teaching the staff to start using the PA systems that they have already spend millions on, but can't be bothered to use.
The best one is the fortune that was spent getting on board PA systems on the Dublin suburban services, which are capable of letting CTC make announcements directly to the passengers. Has anyone ever heard these being used by CTC? As a daily commuter, I certainly have not. :mad:

PS - not sure if CTC can make similar direct announcements on all services. If so, it makes them look even more inefficient.

There is certainly the ability to make onboard announcements on DART trains by CTC, and I have heard that used on occasion, but I don't think it extends to the DMU railcars.

fh041205

pithater1 wrote: »

Slightly OT but I remember a year or 2 back somebody graffitied the platform at Balbriggan with "No more s.h.i.t. train service". I think it lasted about 2 days:D
Seriously though IE really need to take a lesson on PR. I think some station offices close around 7 in the evenings with the last trains being at 12. During the summer sometimes they close at 6.

I wish the last train was 12. Last train from Cork, sligo, galway to dublin is around 6. I don't understand what the difficulty is with relaying information to the public. They just don't seem capable of doing this. Sometimes you have to wonder if they know whats going on themselves. CTC is a disaster ecause they c tell you one thing and do another. I remember once in Drogheda the 10.20 came in on platform 2 for no reason and with no warning. The announcer was in mid sentence when he had to stop and ask everone to go to platform 2.

Ham'nd'egger

fh041205 wrote: »

I wish the last train was 12. Last train from Cork, sligo, galway to dublin is around 6.

Last train from Cork to Dublin is 20:30 and has been for some time; Sligo is a reasonable 19:00. Galway is a less than ideal 18:05. There should be a later train eminating from Galway from December when the new timetable kicks in

fh041205

Hamndegger wrote: »

Last train from Cork to Dublin is 20:30 and has been for some time; Sligo is a reasonable 19:00. Galway is a less than ideal 18:05. There should be a later train eminating from Galway from December when the new timetable kicks in

TBH i'm usually one to defend IR but I don't think any of those times are reasonable. The 20:30 is less outrageous than the others but i still wouldn't see it as acceptable. You would expect later services around 9-10 on all these services but unfortunately there aren't enough drivers and it would be hard to convince a driver to go from sligo to dublin arriving at 12 or later at night (hard but not impossible).

P_1

fh041205 wrote: »

TBH i'm usually one to defend IR but I don't think any of those times are reasonable. The 20:30 is less outrageous than the others but i still wouldn't see it as acceptable. You would expect later services around 9-10 on all these services but unfortunately there aren't enough drivers and it would be hard to convince a driver to go from sligo to dublin arriving at 12 or later at night (hard but not impossible).

The lack of late services on Irish public transport is an absolute joke. AFAIK the tube in London runs till 4am. Now I know we don't have the population base to sustain such regular services at such a late time but come on. Last Darts are around 11.40 from town and last commuter services are even earlier! If only IR would join the rest of us in the 21st century!

KC61

fh041205 wrote: »

TBH i'm usually one to defend IR but I don't think any of those times are reasonable. The 20:30 is less outrageous than the others but i still wouldn't see it as acceptable. You would expect later services around 9-10 on all these services but unfortunately there aren't enough drivers and it would be hard to convince a driver to go from sligo to dublin arriving at 12 or later at night (hard but not impossible).

There is neither the rolling stock nor the driver resources for this at present.

However, having travelled several times on the 20:30 ex-Cork and 20:10 ex-Belfast I'd have to question your "need" for later trains. The loadings were paltry to say the least!

I would expect later trains on the Galway, Limerick, and Waterford routes, with a later Westport connection as the new rolling stock (and drivers) are pressed into service and the new timetable is introduced.

KC61

pithater1 wrote: »

The lack of late services on Irish public transport is an absolute joke. AFAIK the tube in London runs till 4am. Now I know we don't have the population base to sustain such regular services at such a late time but come on. Last Darts are around 11.40 from town and last commuter services are even earlier! If only IR would join the rest of us in the 21st century!

Well that's great to know, I must try to get through the locked gates at all of the underground stations at 4am next time I'm in London!

Last tubes from central London are all about 00:30, and 23:30 on Sunday.

There are some late commuter heavy rail services around the same time.

They do however have a large number of 24 hour bus routes.