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Exam papers on examinations.ie

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  • 10-06-2008 7:34pm
    #1
    BoozyBabe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,724 ✭✭✭


    They've the papers from the exams already done up on the website already!!!
    Including todays exams!!

    They don't waste any time!

    Wonder will they be as quick to pu up the marking schemes, which are so far unavailable!


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    #2
    Mark200
    Registered Users Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭Mark200


    It's been mentioned before in a few topics.


    And the marking schemes probably won't be out until after the results, considering the maths ones probably haven't even been decided yet because it depends on how people did on certain questions.


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    #3
    muffinman
    Registered Users Posts: 494 ✭✭muffinman


    Yeah they often adjust (or even total redo) marking schemes based on performance. I think particularly in geography.. And a good few changes in maths


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    #4
    1huge1
    Registered Users Posts: 6,173 ✭✭✭1huge1


    BoozyBabe wrote: »
    They've the papers from the exams already done up on the website already!!!
    Including todays exams!!

    They don't waste any time!

    Wonder will they be as quick to pu up the marking schemes, which are so far unavailable!
    That wont happen till there corrected as they change the marking schemes all the time during correction to achieve the curve in results.


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    #5
    MathsManiac
    Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭MathsManiac


    1huge1 wrote: »
    That wont happen till there corrected as they change the marking schemes all the time during correction to achieve the curve in results.

    And which curve would that be, pray tell?


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    #6
    titan18
    Registered Users Posts: 12,005 ✭✭✭✭titan18


    MathsManiac wrote: »
    And which curve would that be, pray tell?

    Only a certain amount of people can get As


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    #7
    MathsManiac
    Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭MathsManiac


    titan18 wrote: »
    Only a certain amount of people can get As

    Oh really?

    And precisely how many is that?

    (I'll be intrigued by the response, of course, since all of the published data indicates that this is not the case.)


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    #8
    eoins2345
    Closed Accounts Posts: 154 ✭✭eoins2345


    Ya they can only give a certain amount of grade A results because if too many people get As it will lower the standard of the subject and people will take it for a joke like cspe for junior cert


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    #9
    Rosstafarian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭Rosstafarian


    MathsManiac wrote: »
    Oh really?

    And precisely how many is that?

    (I'll be intrigued by the response, of course, since all of the published data indicates that this is not the case.)

    Every year the results are in a bell curve. Small amount of A's, high amount of B's and C's and small amount of D's and fails.


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    #10
    Mark200
    Registered Users Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭Mark200


    MathsManiac wrote: »
    Oh really?

    And precisely how many is that?

    (I'll be intrigued by the response, of course, since all of the published data indicates that this is not the case.)

    It's the same general percentage every year for maths anyway (I know since I was talking to a maths examiner...), and other subjects too but I'm not sure which ones.

    That's so if it's an easy paper then people who get A's that year don't have an unfair advantage over people who got A's the year before etc.

    Basically to keep the difficulty of the paper more or less the same


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    #11
    MathsManiac
    Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭MathsManiac


    Mark200 wrote: »
    It's the same general percentage every year for maths anyway (I know since I was talking to a maths examiner...), and other subjects too but I'm not sure which ones.

    That's so if it's an easy paper then people who get A's that year don't have an unfair advantage over people who got A's the year before etc.

    Basically to keep the difficulty of the paper more or less the same

    Now maybe we're getting somewhare. What you've just described is completely different from marking to a curve. An observation that a roughly similar percentage get A's from one year to the next is entirely different from saying that only a certain number are allowed to get A's.

    I can certainly believe that there is a policy of ensuring that people are not disadvantaged by an unduly harsh or lenient paper, and that this is achieved by adjusting the marking scheme accordingly. That would essentially mean that the policy is to hold the grading standards reasonably constant within a subject over time. In that context, one would not expect to see huge changes from one year to the next, because standards of achievement in education only change relatively slowly, if it all.

    Marking to curve, or, as an earlier post equivalently claimed "Only a certain amount of people can get As" means completely ignoring the underlying level of achievement and issuing the exactly same number or proportion of each grade from year to year and/or across subjects. The evidence is clearly that this is not the case.


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    #12
    MathsManiac
    Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭MathsManiac


    Rosstafarian wrote: »
    Every year the results are in a bell curve. Small amount of A's, high amount of B's and C's and small amount of D's and fails.

    ...and if you draw histograms for all the subjects you will see that this is not always the case.


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    #13
    titan18
    Registered Users Posts: 12,005 ✭✭✭✭titan18


    No,if there's a lot of people getting As,they'll make the marking scheme harder to reduce the amount.The's only a certain percentage of people allowed to get in a subject.


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    #14
    shanedownfall
    Registered Users Posts: 81 ✭✭shanedownfall


    For maths in or around 17% get A's each year.


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    #15
    Katerrrs
    Registered Users Posts: 42 ✭Katerrrs


    No, think it's a bit lower. In any one year, between 12 and 15% of the students have to get As. This figure never varies greatly, that's why they adjust the marking scheme, so that the results curve is always the same shape.


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    #16
    MathsManiac
    Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭MathsManiac


    So now I guess what is being suggested is that there's only a fixed amount of A's allowed each year, but it's a different amount each year, a different amount for each subject and, (presumably) nobody knows what it is until it happens.

    Marking to a curve indeed. :rolleyes:


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    #17
    Rosstafarian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭Rosstafarian


    Rosstafarian wrote: »
    Every year the results are in a bell curve. Small amount of A's, high amount of B's and C's and small amount of D's and fails.

    I stand by my statement.


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    #18
    MathsManiac
    Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭MathsManiac


    Rosstafarian wrote: »
    I stand by my statement.

    Ok, but forgive me for thinking it odd that 28.6% A's should be described as a small amount of A's, while 29.0% of B's is described as a large amount of B's. (Applied Maths 2007). I guess the boundary betweeen "small" and "large" is about 28.8%.

    I also find it somewhat odd to describe a distribution with a maximum at one end (namely the A1 category) and five modes (A1, B1, B3, C3 and D3) as "bell shaped".


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    #19
    Rosstafarian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭Rosstafarian


    MathsManiac wrote: »
    Ok, but forgive me for thinking it odd that 28.6% A's should be described as a small amount of A's, while 29.0% of B's is described as a large amount of B's. (Applied Maths 2007). I guess the boundary betweeen "small" and "large" is about 28.8%.

    I also find it somewhat odd to describe a distribution with a maximum at one end (namely the A1 category) and five modes (A1, B1, B3, C3 and D3) as "bell shaped".

    you are forgiven ;)

    No, but seriously, I didn't make it up. The bell curve exists. If everybody got A's the leaving would have no value. If nobody failed the qualification would be meaningless. It makes sense that only a certain amount of A's can be awarded.


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    #20
    Cokehead Mother
    Closed Accounts Posts: 773 ✭✭✭Cokehead Mother


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution

    The LC is not marked to fit a bell curve! :eek:

    More than likely, when they design the syllabus, they envisage what an A, B, C, D grade student's standard should be and then perhaps, assuming the exam was too lenient/harsh, they adjust the marking scheme so that an A grade student from one year will be at a similiar standard to an A grade student from last year.


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    #21
    Rosstafarian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭Rosstafarian


    Cokehead Mother wrote: »
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution

    The LC is not marked to fit a bell curve! :eek:

    More than likely, when they design the syllabus, they envisage what an A, B, C, D grade student's standard should be and then perhaps, assuming the exam was too lenient/harsh, they adjust the marking scheme so that an A grade student from one year will be at a similiar standard to an A grade student from last year.

    Let's just agree to disagree.


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    #22
    muffinman
    Registered Users Posts: 494 ✭✭muffinman


    Rosstafarian wrote: »
    Let's just agree to disagree.

    A random sample is usually graded by chief examiners to adjust the marking schemes according to exam difficulty, but in reality it's impossible that they could grade it to a curve - the only exceptions where it could be done would be the languages, etc. As for maths, accounting, physics and the likes, you either have the right answer or you don't. Attempt marks, blunders and slips are clearly defined. If only 2% of honours maths students were to get A1s, they would certainly not go adjusting the scheme to such a drastic extent that would try to alter this. At the end of the day, the c parts will not be worth less than 15 marks, and therefore, very little could be done to change the actual marks achieved.. You need to look at it practically...


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    #23
    Rosstafarian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭Rosstafarian


    muffinman wrote: »
    A random sample is usually graded by chief examiners to adjust the marking schemes according to exam difficulty, but in reality it's impossible that they could grade it to a curve - the only exceptions where it could be done would be the languages, etc. As for maths, accounting, physics and the likes, you either have the right answer or you don't. Attempt marks, blunders and slips are clearly defined. If only 2% of honours maths students were to get A1s, they would certainly not go adjusting the scheme to such a drastic extent that would try to alter this. At the end of the day, the c parts will not be worth less than 15 marks, and therefore, very little could be done to change the actual marks achieved.. You need to look at it practically...

    Fair enough I'm not saying that's wrong but explain to me how the system could function if everybody got an A1??


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    #24
    powpeach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭powpeach


    basically they want some to get A's,B's,C's etc..... if no one gets an A they mark the questions a little easier, if everyone gets an A they mark them harder and look for more precise information!!!!

    get over it they change the marking scheme so it doesnt make a difference why they do!!!???:confused::p
    maybe its a big conspiracy!!!! ill through that out there!


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    #25
    Katerrrs
    Registered Users Posts: 42 ✭Katerrrs


    MathsManiac wrote: »
    Ok, but forgive me for thinking it odd that 28.6% A's should be described as a small amount of A's, while 29.0% of B's is described as a large amount of B's. (Applied Maths 2007).

    Applied maths and other minority subjects are actually just exceptions to the general rule, as they're trying to get more people to do them, that's why the grades tend towards the upper ranges.

    But for all the major subjects, approximately the same percentage of students get A's, Bs etc every year...


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    #26
    Katerrrs
    Registered Users Posts: 42 ✭Katerrrs


    muffinman wrote: »
    A random sample is usually graded by chief examiners to adjust the marking schemes according to exam difficulty, but in reality it's impossible that they could grade it to a curve - the only exceptions where it could be done would be the languages, etc. As for maths, accounting, physics and the likes, you either have the right answer or you don't. Attempt marks, blunders and slips are clearly defined. If only 2% of honours maths students were to get A1s, they would certainly not go adjusting the scheme to such a drastic extent that would try to alter this. At the end of the day, the c parts will not be worth less than 15 marks, and therefore, very little could be done to change the actual marks achieved.. You need to look at it practically...

    This would never happen in reality though...the papers are roughly the same level of difficulty every year, so the same percentage of students generally fall into the various grade categories every year. The marking schemes are only adjusted for fine-tuning of the grades


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    #27
    MathsManiac
    Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭MathsManiac


    Katerrrs wrote: »
    Applied maths and other minority subjects are actually just exceptions to the general rule, as they're trying to get more people to do them, that's why the grades tend towards the upper ranges.

    Classical Studies had about half the number of candidates as applied maths, and its A-rate in 2007 was only 8.1%.
    Katerrrs wrote: »
    But for all the major subjects, approximately the same percentage of students get A's, Bs etc every year...

    The A-rate in higher maths was 21.2% in 2001 and 13.2% the following year. Does maths not count as a major subject, or is 21.2% approximately the same as 13.2%?


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