Europe has been good to us?

utick

this is something the yes to lisbon campaign keeps telling us, my question to them is how good was europe to us in the 80s?

Jigsaw

utick wrote: »

this is something the yes to lisbon campaign keeps telling us, my question to them is how good was europe to us in the 80s?

Very good. Ireland, until recent accession states from Eastern Europe became fully fledged member states, was a net benefactor country. Ireland as a nation has done extraordinarily well out of Europe. FACT.

Gordon

How many more Lisbon treaty threads will there be? I dont remember any in the 80s.

utick

Gordon wrote: »

How many more Lisbon treaty threads will there be? I dont remember any in the 80s.

ireland was part of the eu/ec and was in a major deppression alot of emmigration

johnnyq

Gordon wrote: »

How many more Lisbon treaty threads will there be? I dont remember any in the 80s.

Lol

Indeed Ireland has done well and as a net contributor from now on, the EU's investment will be repaid, and handsomely in my view.

Now what does that have to do with lisbon? Not much in my view, if we vote no those same EU structures which have been good to Ireland stays in place. If we vote yes then we accept other things which may be bad depending on your point of view.

The best thing is to be informed. Referendum Commission website: www.lisbontreaty2008.ie

Gordon

utick wrote: »

ireland was part of the eu/ec and was in a major deppression alot of immigration

So Lisbon threads were immigrating into a depressing Ireland in the 80s? I don't remember seeing that. And I'd remember depressed Lisbon threads, it's the kind of thing I remember.

Sam Vimes

Jigsaw wrote: »

Very good. Ireland, until recent accession states from Eastern Europe became fully fledged member states, was a net benefactor country. Ireland as a nation has done extraordinarily well out of Europe. FACT.

afaik we're still a net benefactor but i'm open to correction on that

Rb

Europe has been good to Ireland, but I can't see it being good for Ireland in the future, particularly if a yes vote on Lisbon goes through.

ART6

Ireland has been a net beneficiary true. But we also benefited from a blizzard of regulation designed to suit the mainland European countries like France and Germany rather than us. That in turn gave us water charges for schools, for example, in a country where, compared with much of Europe, water is plentiful. It gave us a common law system based upon the French model rather than the Anglo-Irish one that has stood us in good stead for hundreds of years. It gave us significantly increased food costs due to the CAP. It gave us excessive inflation because we surrendered to the ECB control of our own interest rates. It gave us a political system controlled by civil servants rather than elected representatives and thereby reduced our elected government to, very largely, a rubber stamping machine. It gave us a common currency the value of which was determined mainly by the health of the German economy rather than any of our own efforts, so that when the currency of our largest export market, the UK, slips then we are in trouble. It permitted us to give away our fisheries to France and Spain, who promptly vacuumed our fish-rich waters clean and eliminated our own industry. It gave us the proliferation of massive and visually intrusive road signs boasting how the latest scheme was part funded by the EU Development Fund. But mainly it gave us the opportunity to abandon control of our own destiny.

Ah, but was not the Celtic Tiger phenomenon due to the EU? No. It was due to Charlie McCreevy dropping corporation taxes to 12 1/2%. It was in spite of the EU, not because of it. It happened in part because a succession of Irish and British politicians patiently worked towards peace in the Six Counties, bringing them and the Republic closer and closer together until we gained a vibrant and valuable further market, and the EU played no part in that whatever.The same effect would have occurred if we had remained members of the Common Market, which was the origin of the EU, and that would have happened without all of the endless meddling from Brussels.

mikemac

ART6 wrote: »

It gave us a common law system based upon the French model rather than the Anglo-Irish one that has stood us in good stead for hundreds of years.

Ireland, the UK and places like Australia all have common law systems. We didn't get them from Europe, we always had it.
Unless you want to waaaaay back to the Gaelic chiefs and Brehon law.

The French model is a civil code system based on codes which is different to common law. So how did we replace the system we already had?

Sam Vimes

ART6 wrote: »

That in turn gave us water charges for schools, for example, in a country where, compared with much of Europe, water is plentiful.

The eu had no law requiring our government to underfund schools to the point that water charges crippled them. There was nothing stopping them increasing funding to counteract the charges. But if you want to blame the eu you go right ahead

ART6 wrote: »

Ah, but was not the Celtic Tiger phenomenon due to the EU? No. It was due to Charlie McCreevy dropping corporation taxes to 12 1/2%. It was in spite of the EU, not because of it. It happened in part because a succession of Irish and British politicians patiently worked towards peace in the Six Counties, bringing them and the Republic closer and closer together until we gained a vibrant and valuable further market, and the EU played no part in that whatever.The same effect would have occurred if we had remained members of the Common Market, which was the origin of the EU, and that would have happened without all of the endless meddling from Brussels.

now that is just crap and you know it. Those US companies came because of our low tax rate AND membership of the eu which gave them access to the rest of europe. Without the eu it just wouldn't have happened

also, as micmclo said, i'm fairly sure us and the uk are the only countries in europe that have a common law system and we had it for several hundred years before the eu existed
Posted via Mobile Device

dresden8

What's those stats?

We received €50billion cash from the EU and gave them €100billion in fish for that.

Net Contributor more like.

SimpleSam06

Jigsaw wrote: »

Very good. Ireland, until recent accession states from Eastern Europe became fully fledged member states, was a net benefactor country. Ireland as a nation has done extraordinarily well out of Europe. FACT.

We also gave up the rights to our fishing grounds when we joined, earning the EU states three times more than they ever gave to us. The more I learn about EU contributions to this country, the less impressed I am.

So tell me again, who is the net benefactor?

Macha

ART6 wrote: »

Ireland has been a net beneficiary true. But we also benefited from a blizzard of regulation designed to suit the mainland European countries like France and Germany rather than us. That in turn gave us water charges for schools, for example, in a country where, compared with much of Europe, water is plentiful.

Water may be plentiful in Ireland but a lot of it is polluted and it is only through being forced by the EU through the Water Framework Directive that we will resolve this. Also, we are running out of municipal reserves in the Dublin area. Have you not noticed the storm going on about bringing pipelines up from the Shannon or installing a desalination plant? With global warming, this is only going to get worse.

ART6 wrote: »

It gave us a common law system based upon the French model rather than the Anglo-Irish one that has stood us in good stead for hundreds of years. It gave us significantly increased food costs due to the CAP.

CAP is not perfect but if it weren't for CAP we would have even less farmers than we do now. Plus we have never paid so little for our food. In the 60s we spent 30% of our disposible income on food, now its 10-15%. Please explain how our entire legal system has been converted over to the French model.

ART6 wrote: »

It gave us excessive inflation because we surrendered to the ECB control of our own interest rates. It gave us a political system controlled by civil servants rather than elected representatives and thereby reduced our elected government to, very largely, a rubber stamping machine. It gave us a common currency the value of which was determined mainly by the health of the German economy rather than any of our own efforts, so that when the currency of our largest export market, the UK, slips then we are in trouble.

And you think that in the 1960s when we were completely economically dependent on the UK that a drop in the UK economy wouldn't have affected us? If anything, being part of the EU has given us access to new markets and thus softened any impact.

ART6 wrote: »

It permitted us to give away our fisheries to France and Spain, who promptly vacuumed our fish-rich waters clean and eliminated our own industry.

We are the only ones to blame for that. We did it - no one forced us to.

ART6 wrote: »

It gave us the proliferation of massive and visually intrusive road signs boasting how the latest scheme was part funded by the EU Development Fund.

I hope you enjoy driving on those lovely new roads - they wouldn't be there if it weren't for EU funding. And now you're just being ridiculous - "massive", "instrusive"? Come on - this is just petty whining.

ART6 wrote: »

Ah, but was not the Celtic Tiger phenomenon due to the EU? No. It was due to Charlie McCreevy dropping corporation taxes to 12 1/2%. It was in spite of the EU, not because of it. It happened in part because a succession of Irish and British politicians patiently worked towards peace in the Six Counties, bringing them and the Republic closer and closer together until we gained a vibrant and valuable further market, and the EU played no part in that whatever.The same effect would have occurred if we had remained members of the Common Market, which was the origin of the EU, and that would have happened without all of the endless meddling from Brussels.

You're having a laugh. You really think that it only happened because we dropped our corporation taxes and stabilised the north?? And what exaclty was everyone in the country going to work as for all these Farmers?? It was mostly because of the free education that was introduced in the 1960s. The EU poured huge amounts of funds into Ireland to provide this free education. Plus college education was made free in 1996 - that is a huge cost and our government does not foot the whole bill by any stretch of the imagination.

If it weren't for the EU, we would still be tied to sterling, and hugely economically dependent on the UK. Plus as part of the EU, we were a perfect base for US TNCs to enter the European market. Yahoo, Google, Microsoft, Intel, Dell - they wouldn't be here if we weren't in the EU.

SimpleSam06

taconnol wrote: »

Water may be plentiful in Ireland but a lot of it is polluted and it is only through being forced by the EU through the Water Framework Directive that we will resolve this. Also, we are running out of municipal reserves in the Dublin area. Have you not noticed the storm going on about bringing pipelines up from the Shannon or installing a desalination plant? With global warming, this is only going to get worse.

Thats another infrastructure problem, not a supply problem. We don't need EU regulations to sort that out.

taconnol wrote: »

Plus we have never paid so little for our food.

We are getting absoloutely raped on food prices. Did you not see the headlines lately where chains in the UK were charging 50% less for food? The economics of mass distribution can in no way explain that.

taconnol wrote: »

If anything, being part of the EU has given us access to new markets and thus softened any impact.

Markets we would have had access to anyway, ultimately, unless you think European countries not in the EU are locked out of the EU for some reason. Not that being part of the EU has done wonders for our international trade anyway (paid VRT lately?)

taconnol wrote: »

We are the only ones to blame for that. We did it - no one forced us to.

So lets talk about what the EU owes us then. As well as the gross value of fish stocks, we have the missed opportunities in terms of employment in a national fishing industry, huge shipbuilding opportunities (we are an island state by the way) and all the industrial infrastructure that brings, processing, the list goes on.

taconnol wrote: »

I hope you enjoy driving on those lovely new roads - they wouldn't be there if it weren't for EU funding.

Have you seen our lovely new roads? They ain't that lovely. Infrastructure in Ireland is a joke. This is where our government should have put the massive tax receipts of the last eight years, not into the public sector.

taconnol wrote: »

You're having a laugh. You really think that it only happened because we dropped our corporation taxes and stailised the north?

Basically, yes. Thats how it got started anyway, the boom over the last decade was largely due to lower global interest rates flooding the system with cheap money. The EU had little or nothing to do with that.

Sherifu

ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz

ScumLord

utick wrote: »

ireland was part of the eu/ec and was in a major deppression alot of emmigration

Wasn't there a world wide economic depression at the time?

zuutroy

Sherifu wrote: »

ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz

this

Steve_o

Christ... enough with the "Is Europe good for Ireland" threads... off to Politics with you.:mad:


/walks away mumbling profanities

Dyr

taconnol wrote: »

We are the only ones to blame for that. We did it - no one forced us to.

Greenland had to actually leave the EEC to prevent European Fleets from fishing their waters so I find it hard to believe that "we did it" in that regard.

Ponster

Steve_o wrote: »

Christ... enough with the "Is Europe good for Ireland" threads... off to Politics with you.:mad:


/walks away mumbling profanities

No point. The OP IMHO probably doesn't have the skills needed to defend their point of view in the politics forum.

These threads are getting boring.

Steve_o

Ponster wrote: »

These threads are getting boring.

+ infinity

kowloon

ART6 wrote: »

It gave us a political system controlled by civil servants rather than elected representatives and thereby reduced our elected government to, very largely, a rubber stamping machine.

I didn't realise that was introduced with the EU.

suspectdevice

see its not really a politics thread, its a culture thread.

1980's ireland. i qualified from college, did an anco course, wrote up a cv and went to a recruitment agency called headhunt. little fu'cker in there with some irish version of his name, horrible little man, told me i was useless, unemployable and that i should go abroad to get work and experience. so i went, without the intention of coming back if that was the type of wa'nker that could say whether or not my cv would be passed on to an employer. went to london got a job, after 2-3 years saw a job advertised by headhunt, same little fu'cker, in the irish newspaper with a large american software corporation that was setting up in ireland and looking for my skills. sent in my cv and got it returned saying that the employer was not interested. saw the same job advertised a couple of weeks later in the english press and the chance to apply directly, which i did and got the job. little fu'cker. anyway, thats what '80s ireland reminds me of. a very few people controlling the very many for their own interests.

then came the corporations for the tax breaks. that gave people who were not part of the very few at the top the opportunity to enter the ruling class, the executive class, the monied class. no longer were we to be ruled by a bunch of in-bred rich fu'ckers who could hold sway over your life for their own benefit. we were the first generation to actually be able to stand tall because of the status that the large american corporations bestowed upon us, and everyone since has benefitted from our pioneering work. no longer was there the expectation of a priest, a nun, a civil servant, a bank clerk, a teacher and a homeboy to look after the folks considered to be the profile of the successful irish family. success could be down to the individual and the chance they took having been presented it by the large foreign corporations coming here to set up their operations.

why did they come here? because of us. because of the irish people and our intelligence. the fact that we were european, spoke english but weren't fu'cking english. the fact that we could work long hours and not complain because our forefathers had a little work. but the biggest factor, the most important element of their decision was the fact the they could change the name of their company very 3-5 years to a new name registered in the caymen islands and benefit from renewed tax breaks that were afforded them. 12.5% was across the board but depending on the company and their type of business and the level of their revenue, their would be deals done.

we should have stayed that way but we got caught on the hop and gave in to some of the eu demands. farming is fu'cked. thats not just here. collective corporate farming is killing rural communities all over europe. fishing is fu'cked. we are an island nation surrounded by rich waters and stocks that have been fleeced by spanish trawlers. we eat frozen fish from the north of england, from scotland, crab meat from fu'cking thailand. we have no real seafood culture, not any abundance or value for money.

we have allowed companies like tesco to come in and not even require them to delcare their profits, they came in as an unlimited company. other companies have also done the same thing. recently the uk based companies, the large multiples have ceased to display their prices in sterling, the strength of the euro is something they are denying us. fair enough that europe does not have much oil but the strength of the euro should afford us better rpices than $10 a gallon. and anyway, the money we spend for fuel should be svaed on other products like food and clothing due to the stregth of the euro. is it? no. we allow multiples to import beer from spain, via the uk, ship it across the boarder from the north and sell it below cost whilst fleecing us on a our groceries bill. the people dealing with this have no approach because they have no experience, they are like the planning clerks of old telling us white walls/black slate roof to preserve the integrity of the countryside, wtf? they have not got a clue.

then we open up our borders. what was that all about? an island nation with no natural resources, no indigenous industry, allows 100,000s of people to come here to seek work. i am not racist, i ma not even nationalist, truth be told i'd like to live in an anarchy(daydreams) but it is not long ago since we were in the state of the countries that these people come from, we show a little unsustainable growth and we take down our borders, meanwhile everywhere else on the planet is putting them up.

infrastructure, huh. contracts handed out on foot of brown envelopes, with work phased in such a way that the contractors finish the m50 for example and start enlarging it. what a joke. but who pays? you may say the eu but you are so wrong. thats what they want you think. we have paid with our fishing grounds, we have paid with our letting down the boarders and now each and everyone of us pays whilst we are sitting in traffic for 2-3 hours per day or by paying fu'cking ridiculous prices for housing that is 2-3 miles from work - still takes half an hour to get there though.

at the end of the day, irish people made ireland successful. the inherent good nature and hard working irish people, not the chancers but the ones who came up in hard times, nothing more, nothing less, we just didn't have the confidence to go it alone and make sure that what we had was developed for our benefit.

i pity todays generation of 20 somethings, there are some tough times ahead. we all need to rally around a little and try and make sure we help as much as we all can. be a little bit more realistic in our expectations. take control of our future.

i am not for or against europe but put it on the backboiler for now, until we make our politicians do their job, understand more about where we find ourselves. let them ask the question that i find fundamental - can we have a referendum to suspend our involvement in the eu until they take the time to educate us all about what it is for us to be european citizens. ask them to stop all this tribunal bullsh!t, all this distraction about trivial events in the past and spend as much time and money educating us on who we are and where we are going.

regardless of the rant. ireland prospered because of irish people.

Ponster

suspectdevice wrote: »

regardless of the rant. ireland prospered because of irish people.

Hmmmm...I understand what you're saying and agree. But to say that without Europe Ireland would be the same country it is today would be wrong (I don't think you think that but others could understand that).

Macha

I agree with a lot of what you're saying but you can lay the blame for our crap public transport, long commutes and high house prices at the feet of Fianna Fail and no one else.

Believe me if the EU had their way, do you think they would have allowed Bertie to hand out his ridiculous tax incentives to developers and buyers alike? Renters get a crappy rental allowance and rents are almost the same as buying so why wouldn't you buy? Developers being allowed to throw up god-awful suburbs of ridiculously low densities so as to make public transport unviable and the car the only valid means of transport. So it due to our national policies and our own thick-headed obsession with owning a bit of garden out the back that we all sit in our cars for 4 hours a day.

Sorry but the EU does pay for a lot of that infrastructure and whatever the government gives out, they get most of it back in tax receipts.

The price of oil has gone up largely because of the weak dollar.

ScumLord

suspectdevice wrote: »

why did they come here? because of us. because of the irish people and our intelligence. the fact that we were european, spoke english but weren't fu'cking english. the fact that we could work long hours and not complain because our forefathers had a little work.

They came here because it was cheap, end of. Low wages, low tax, lets face it most jobs in the world are easy enough to train for even if your making computer chips your more than likely on a production line doing the same thing day in day out. Now that Ireland no longer cheap there's nothing keeping them here and they're leaving in droves.

All the hard working Irish left years ago. I remember when I started working there was no rush on anything, monday was optional. It wasn't until the foreigners came along and started working there holes off for half the wage that we pulled our socks up.

we should have stayed that way but we got caught on the hop and gave in to some of the eu demands. farming is fu'cked. thats not just here. collective corporate farming is killing rural communities all over europe.

That's world wide capitolisim driving down costs not the EU.

then we open up our borders. what was that all about? an island nation with no natural resources, no indigenous industry, allows 100,000s of people to come here to seek work.

We begged them to come here, remember? More jobs than people.

escobar

johnnyq wrote: »

Lol

Indeed Ireland has done well and as a net contributor from now on, the EU's investment will be repaid, and handsomely in my view.

Now what does that have to do with lisbon? Not much in my view, if we vote no those same EU structures which have been good to Ireland stays in place. If we vote yes then we accept other things which may be bad depending on your point of view.

The best thing is to be informed. Referendum Commission website: www.lisbontreaty2008.ie

+ 1

The only argument for voting yes that i've heard is

1.That europe has been good to us : Our sucess is because of our policies i.e. tax and our productivity etc .
It's not as if every country who joined has been as sucessful as us.

2.That we will be in big trouble if we vote no and all the other countries will be annoyed with us. But France and Holland voted against it last time and it was changed so why shouldn't we.

On the no side

We're losing half our voting power while others double and won't even have representation one third of the time

and

although the tax issue , as in our corporation tax is lower than other countries ,which will be pushed by the larger countries to be equalised cannot be changed except by unanimity this requirement can be voted on and changed and again we're not represented one third of the time.

The above is enough for me to vote no. I still havn't heard agood argument to vote yes

But I'm still completely open on the subject so all comments are welcomed

suspectdevice

Ponster wrote: »

Hmmmm...I understand what you're saying and agree. But to say that without Europe Ireland would be the same country it is today would be wrong (I don't think you think that but others could understand that).

i think it would have been better. honestly. thing is we never went down that route so we will never know what the challenges might have been and how irish people would have coped with. we do know that we are currently facing the single biggest challenge in our history and we have little or no control over it. thats a lot scarier to me than hwat would happened if we'd have remained a little more isolated.

taconnol wrote:

I agree with a lot of what you're saying but you can lay the blame for our crap public transport, long commutes and high house prices at the feet of Fianna Fail and no one else.

Believe me if the EU had their way, do you think they would have allowed Bertie to hand out his ridiculous tax incentives to developers and buyers alike? Renters get a crappy rental allowance and rents are almost the same as buying so why wouldn't you buy? Developers being allowed to throw up god-awful suburbs of ridiculously low densities so as to make public transport unviable and the car the only valid means of transport. So it due to our national policies and our own thick-headed obsession with owning a bit of garden out the back that we all sit in our cars for 4 hours a day.

Sorry but the EU does pay for a lot of that infrastructure and whatever the government gives out, they get most of it back in tax receipts.

The price of oil has gone up largely because of the weak dollar.

agreed, fianna fail, solicitors, developers, councillors, tds. they all had a hand in the massive exploitation of the land banks in ireland.

the eu pays for infrastructure to a certain extent but we have paid all the way along personally. we have been a bunch of lab rats for the expansion of the eu for a long time. they have colonised ireland, turned us into the model country, and are now resetting expectations for the medium to long term. they will now move on and do the same to the other, equally unadvanced, members. poland and the like have a lot to be wary of as they are colonised.

oil has gone up because of profiteering, massive profiteering by everyone in the supplychain

Macha

Ok how about this: At the moment, legislation is written, discussed and adopted in the EU in a way that does not involve our national governments. They really have no say, apart from through the commissioner and the few MEPs.

Once the legislation is passed at EU level, it is totally binding for national governments to implement it. In the case of directives, the goal of the legislation is the main thing & so we're allowed a bit of leeway to implement it as we see fit. If the Lisbon Treaty is passed, national governments will have a greater say in EU legislative procedures and will have 8 weeks to look at the legislation & go back to the EU with it. If 1/3 of national governments object, the legislation will have to be reviewed.

ALSO, Irish people don't seem to realise how screwed we are when it comes to energy. We import over 90% of our energy (98% when it comes to transport - remember all those miles we're driving in our beloved cars?) We are on the end of a VERY long gas pipline from Russia & if they switch off the gas, we will be the first and worst hit. It is only as part of the EU and part of a new EU common energy policy that we will be able to have any influence over Russia.

That's just two reasons to vote yes. I've yet to hear any good reasons for voting no, or at least any that outweigh the yes vote.

suspectdevice

ScumLord wrote: »

They came here because it was cheap, end of. Low wages, low tax, lets face it most jobs in the world are easy enough to train for even if your making computer chips your more than likely on a production line doing the same thing day in day out. Now that Ireland no longer cheap there's nothing keeping them here and they're leaving in droves.

no they did not. they came here for the well educated workforce who were prepared to work an honest day for an honest pay. and long term renewable low taxes.

i was in meetings with the ida and companies thinking about coming here and i saw the sales pitch. show cases were made of certain compnaies who had already good experiences in ireland with regard to workforce and taxes, directly attributable to ireland. this was not as simple as assembly lines. they were looking for some manfacturing skills but they had their plan set to land their revenue here and support all their sales operations in europe, africa, the middle east, indian sub continent, eastern europe out of here. the germans would think it was a german company, the french would think it french, inside every little irish worker was an american dying to get out. or at least thats the way they saw it.

they are moving on because we have been modernised. we must now compete on a level playing field. they have moved on to colonise elsewhere.

ScumLord wrote:

All the hard working Irish left years ago.

thats just plain silly

ScumLord wrote:

I remember when I started working there was no rush on anything, monday was optional. It wasn't until the foreigners came along and started working there holes off for half the wage that we pulled our socks up.

never heard of it in industries that contributed to the bottow line. must have been in the trades or service industries but then they are the ones who will pay the price of all this first. we still haven't pulled our socks up. no one has worked here for half the wage of anyone else in a long time. we have the strictest and most well enforced and the most generous minimum wage system in europe, holidays included. people from other countries came here to take up jobs on minimum wage, break their bo!lox for two years and go home and buy out their mortgage. others got assimulated and are a part of our society. paddy hasn't pulled his socks up in the last while.

ScumLord wrote:

That's world wide capitolisim driving down costs not the EU.

costs are going up

ScumLord wrote:

We begged them to come here, remember? More jobs than people.

we just dropped our borders, i still can't for the life of me think why when hardly anyone else did
[/quote]
overall, we are obviously talking about different timelines

ScumLord

suspectdevice wrote: »

no they did not. they came here for the well educated workforce who were prepared to work an honest day for an honest pay. and long term renewable low taxes.

i was in meetings with the ida and companies thinking about coming here and i saw the sales pitch.

I've heard the sales pitch myself through Enterprise Ireland, the oposit end from what your talking about but still the same frame of mind. But a sales pitch, is 90% bull****. Bottom line for any company is cost and profit.

suspectdevice

ScumLord wrote: »

I've heard the sales pitch myself through Enterprise Ireland, the oposit end from what your talking about but still the same frame of mind. But a sales pitch, is 90% bull****. Bottom line for any company is cost and profit.

it was medium to long term investment strategies for growth industries.

we are talking about the 80's early 90's even. we had a surplus of grads that had to go abroad to get work, why not keep them at home. we had an education system that had focussed on technology and engineering.

maybe the sales pitch from ei was bullpoop, i don't know. but the ida was a genuine effort to draw world class employers due to our intelligence and our tax breaks, based on the education system turning out educated people, educated for the factory floor to leaving certificate level or for the more technical/administration jobs to diploma or degree level.

the amount of people i know who took total advantage from the factory floor of part time education, applied and got jobs and made their way for themselves is massive. thats what they had to do and they done it. thats what it was built on, that type of attitude.

ireland was also a very attractive place for europeans to come and work. dublin, cork, galway, were all seen as cool cities to get a job abroad for other europeans, and thats down to the irish and their culture. and it worked.

our infrastructure was new and connectivity, after a while, was well ahead of a lot of the other countries vying for their business, that weren't german, french or english. we would walk all over italy, spain, austria, switzerland, scandanavia and that was an irish thing.

ScumLord

suspectdevice wrote: »

it was medium to long term investment strategies for growth industries.

we are talking about the 80's early 90's even. we had a surplus of grads that had to go abroad to get work, why not keep them at home. we had an education system that had focussed on technology and engineering.

maybe the sales pitch from ei was bullpoop, i don't know. but the ida was a genuine effort to draw world class employers due to our intelligence and our tax breaks, based on the education system turning out educated people, educated for the factory floor to leaving certificate level or for the more technical/administration jobs to diploma or degree level.

the amount of people i know who took total advantage from the factory floor of part time education, applied and got jobs and made their way for themselves is massive. thats what they had to do and they done it. thats what it was built on, that type of attitude.

ireland was also a very attractive place for europeans to come and work. dublin, cork, galway, were all seen as cool cities to get a job abroad for other europeans, and thats down to the irish and their culture. and it worked.

our infrastructure was new and connectivity, after a while, was well ahead of a lot of the other countries vying for their business, that weren't german, french or english. we would walk all over italy, spain, austria, switzerland, scandanavia and that was an irish thing.

Maybe the promise of infrastructure was there but it never materialized. I don't see how we where ever ahead of the pack in that respect, maybe when we had little cars on the road. I firmly believe the boom was completely wasted we drew in the company's with big promises (there's no doubt the Irish worker was attractive but.. bottom lines) and now we've nothing to show for it. Companies are leaving our transport system is still backward with no end in sight (I'm in the west where our N17 upgrade has been promised for years but stupid planning has seen it sent back because bypasses shouldn't include 7 roundabouts going back into the town (Tuam)).

Irish grads are going to have to start leaving the country again, if they set up shop here they can't compete on a global level and the country can't pull in foreign investment anymore.

The leaders had one good idea 20 years ago and ruined it.

ART6

micmclo wrote: »

Ireland, the UK and places like Australia all have common law systems. We didn't get them from Europe, we always had it.
Unless you want to waaaaay back to the Gaelic chiefs and Brehon law.

The French model is a civil code system based on codes which is different to common law. So how did we replace the system we already had?

I think you misunderstand me. I didn't say we never had a system of common law until the EU came along. What I said was it gave us a system that largely replaced our own historical one for one based to an extent at least upon French law. As I undertand it, some 80% of Ireland's law is now founded in the superior court of the ECJ.

It might be worth noticing, in that respect, that for all of it's faults the common law of the countries you mention was based upon English law that had develoved in 800 years of steady implementation and reinforcement of democracy. If we look around the world, one of the oldest true democracies is the UK, followed (surprisingly) by the USA. France, Germany, and many of the mainland EU countries are very new democracies. Their law and democratic systems have not yet stood the test of time, but we are being told to give up our system for theirs.

suspectdevice

ScumLord wrote: »

Maybe the promise of infrastructure was there but it never materialized. I don't see how we where ever ahead of the pack in that respect, maybe when we had little cars on the road. I firmly believe the boom was completely wasted we drew in the company's with big promises (there's no doubt the Irish worker was attractive but.. bottom lines) and now we've nothing to show for it. Companies are leaving our transport system is still backward with no end in sight (I'm in the west where our N17 upgrade has been promised for years but stupid planning has seen it sent back because bypasses shouldn't include 7 roundabouts going back into the town (Tuam)).

Irish grads are going to have to start leaving the country again, if they set up shop here they can't compete on a global level and the country can't pull in foreign investment anymore.

The leaders had one good idea 20 years ago and ruined it.

i was talking about technology, met area networks, intl links, that type of thing. connectivity wise we were as advanced as the the uk since bt considered us to be domestic uk.

on the roads, regardless of anything, there must have been some huge incentives for companies to base themselves here and not in, say holland. huge.

and you're right, it was mismanaged. thats why we have to build upon what we have, 20 years experience of a well trained workforce and continued tax breaks

we should have held back on europe for a while, see how things would pan out

ScumLord

suspectdevice wrote: »

i was talking about technology, met area networks, intl links, that type of thing. connectivity wise we were as advanced as the the uk since bt considered us to be domestic uk.

on the roads, regardless of anything, there must have been some huge incentives for companies to base themselves here and not in, say holland. huge.

and you're right, it was mismanaged. thats why we have to build upon what we have, 20 years experience of a well trained workforce and continued tax breaks

we should have held back on europe for a while, see how things would pan out

Oh connectivity wise, we're still in reeling in amazement of this "broadband" thing out here in the west. It's only recently made it out past the pale. Dublin had these things for years but the rest of the country was forgotten about. Companies that set up in the west where probably given all types of promises and there was no real reason why they couldn't have been implemented on time if it wasn't for the toolbags in government.

The country's completely unbalanced. Development barely makes it out west, and what development we do get is so poorly planned they might as well have not bothered. This means Dublin is overburdened with everything.

I don't trust our lot, they're just not cut out for the job and need Europe there to show them how it's done.

suspectdevice

ScumLord wrote: »

Oh connectivity wise, we're still in reeling in amazement of this "broadband" thing out here in the west. It's only recently made it out past the pale. Dublin had these things for years but the rest of the country was forgotten about. Companies that set up in the west where probably given all types of promises and there was no real reason why they couldn't have been implemented on time if it wasn't for the toolbags in government.

The country's completely unbalanced. Development barely makes it out west, and what development we do get is so poorly planned they might as well have not bothered. This means Dublin is overburdened with everything.

I don't trust our lot, they're just not cut out for the job and need Europe there to show them how it's done.

maybe cowen and his cohorts will improve things.

best of luck anyways, nice talkin' to ya

ruskin

Vote no to Lisbon. Theres no going back after a yes vote, Europe will be changed forever

Macha

ruskin wrote: »

Vote no to Lisbon. Theres no going back after a yes vote, Europe will be changed forever

Do you have another reason for voting no, apart from an irrational fear of change?

Steve_o

ruskin wrote: »

Vote no to Lisbon. Theres no going back after a yes vote, Europe will be changed forever

This is a prime example of what pi$$es me off the most... stupid statements like this. This is the 3rd or 4th thread running on AH at the moment about the Lisbon Treaty... ENOUGH already!!!:mad:

SimpleSam06

suspectdevice wrote: »

the eu pays for infrastructure to a certain extent but we have paid all the way along personally.

And what a great infrastructure we have to show for it.

suspectdevice wrote: »

oil has gone up because of profiteering, massive profiteering by everyone in the supplychain

Oil has gone up because people are worried about the economy, so they are starting to buy in oil on the world markets, its where they feel their money is safest, after the credit crunch. No conspiracy required.

Farming isn't screwed because of corporations, its screwed because the first world can't compete with the pennies per day labour rates of the third world, BUT they can't just start buying in food from Africa because that means the dictator du jour has complete control over your food supply. Hence the subsidies.

taconnol wrote: »

ALSO, Irish people don't seem to realise how screwed we are when it comes to energy. We import over 90% of our energy (98% when it comes to transport - remember all those miles we're driving in our beloved cars?) We are on the end of a VERY long gas pipline from Russia & if they switch off the gas, we will be the first and worst hit. It is only as part of the EU and part of a new EU common energy policy that we will be able to have any influence over Russia.

So hold on there a minute, if we don't vote yes they will cut off the power? wtf?

Not to mention that Ireland is as screwed on energy as it wants to be. Its the most ideally placed country in the world to take advantage of wind power (we already produce a good percentage of our power from wind), and with new developments in deep water turbines, we could handily produce the vast majority of our power from Atlantic winds. Not to mention stimulating local industry and jobs - just look at Denmark to see what I mean.

ScumLord

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Not to mention that Ireland is as screwed on energy as it wants to be. Its the most ideally placed country in the world to take advantage of wind power (we already produce a good percentage of our power from wind), and with new developments in deep water turbines, we could handily produce the vast majority of our power from Atlantic winds. Not to mention stimulating local industry and jobs - just look at Denmark to see what I mean.

We've loads of gas too, no? If only we could turn rain into power.

Irelands dieing farms could be an instant source of methane power.

Macha

*Sigh* I didn't say they WOULD cut the power off but my point is that as a single nation of approx 4m people, Russia isn't going to listen to us, but is a lot more likely to listen to the EU. It's about security of supply. I don't particularly trust Russia & I would feel a lot more secure if the EU was doing some energy negotiating on our behalf. Have you seen any of the shenanigans going on in the former Soviet-bloc countries with Russia? The whole situation is very volatile. Plus at the moment, Lithuania (I think) are stopping a pipeline being built from Russia into Europe. If the treaty goes through, one country won't be able to do this: to hold back the rest of Europe. It's more democratic.

Yeah, you're totally right about our wind & wave potential. It's just a shame FF is blind to it.

I don't think suspectdrive was talking about any sort of conspiracy theory. Profiteering is profiteering, not a conspiracy theory.

Edit: Scumlord, you're so right. Anaerobic digestion ftw. Plus we'd reduce our methane emissions & get rid of some waste. 3 birds, 1 stone.

SimpleSam06

ScumLord wrote: »

We've loads of gas too, no? If only we could turn rain into power.

Yeah, that would be great. We could call it water electric, or hydro power or something.

taconnol wrote: »

*Sigh* I didn't say they WOULD cut the power off but my point is that as a single nation of approx 4m people, Russia isn't going to listen to us, but is a lot more likely to listen to the EU.

Thats not how it works. There isn't a pipe going from Moscow to Dublin with "Ireland's supplies" on it. In this case we are buying resold fuel from other countries, not just Russia, and importing it from commercial groups. Russia can't stipulate that Ireland doesn't get any, as if they would ever have reason to do so. Our distance from them is an advantage.

taconnol wrote: »

Yeah, you're totally right about our wind & wave potential. It's just a shame FF is blind to it.

Donkey cart politicians in the 21st century. Its time for a change.

Macha

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Thats not how it works. There isn't a pipe going from Moscow to Dublin with "Ireland's supplies" on it. In this case we are buying resold fuel from other countries, not just Russia, and importing it from commercial groups. Russia can't stipulate that Ireland doesn't get any, as if they would ever have reason to do so. Our distance from them is an advantage.

Yes it does come through other countries and if there is any shortage, we are at the back of the breadline. The rest of Europe will make sure to satisfy its consumers before any is sent on to us. It is a disadvantage

SimpleSam06

taconnol wrote: »

Yes it does come through other countries and if there is any shortage, we are at the back of the breadline. The rest of Europe will make sure to satisfy its consumers before any is sent on to us. It is a disadvantage

Oil companies will sell to whoever wants to buy. If only Russia didn't control the entirety of the world's oil supplies, ha? You're using fear to try to gain support for a yes vote, and you and various ministers who have made threatening noises towards the Irish if we don't vote yes are going to learn the hard way that we don't like that sort of thing around here.

We really don't.

suspectdevice

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

And what a great infrastructure we have to show for it.

we have? where? we have classic irish fu'ck ups everywhere but i can't see where we have adequate infrastructure

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Oil has gone up because people are worried about the economy, so they are starting to buy in oil on the world markets, its where they feel their money is safest, after the credit crunch. No conspiracy required.

who mentioned conspiracy? taints your response a little for me

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Farming isn't screwed because of corporations, its screwed because the first world can't compete with the pennies per day labour rates of the third world, BUT they can't just start buying in food from Africa because that means the dictator du jour has complete control over your food supply. Hence the subsidies.

farming as a way of life, a culture is screwed. same way as fishing. take the post in context. its a cultural thing we are losing. more and more people all over europe are moving from rural villages with small farmholdings in to the big cities in search of jobs and lifestyle. with no one to take up inheriting and working the land they have no other option than to sell it on to the large food producers.

cornbb

One of the primary visions of the EU was to create friendship between European nations thus preventing wars like WW2. It's been vastly successful in doing this. It promotes peace using a carrot approach, unlike the stick approach of the US. The EU is Batman, the US is the Incredible Hulk

So yes, the EU has been undeniably good for the whole world, including Ireland, who have also done extraordinarily well in a financial sense.

Macha

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Oil companies will sell to whoever wants to buy. If only Russia didn't control the entirety of the world's oil supplies, ha? You're using fear to try to gain support for a yes vote, and you and various ministers who have made threatening noises towards the Irish if we don't vote yes are going to learn the hard way that we don't like that sort of thing around here.

We really don't.

I would suggest you get rid of the 'you and your kind' tone. I'm not talking about oil. I'm talking about gas. You want to try and cook your dinner on an oil stove? Go right ahead. Good luck to you.

It isn't scaremongering to acknowledge an existing threat to the security of Ireland's gas supply. Ireland is seriously over dependent on imported energy. Fact. Europe, including Ireland, is highly dependent on Russia for gas. Fact. We are at the far end of the gas pipe. Fact. If Russia turns it off (which they have done in the past), we will be the first to suffer. Fact.

Conclusion: The Lisbon Treaty unites the EU's energy policy and therefore will allow us a better hand at the bargaining table with Russia. This will go some way to dealing with situation as described above.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0228/gazprom.html

You would do well to think before you accuse others of conspiracies and scaremongering.

SimpleSam06

suspectdevice wrote: »

we have? where? we have classic irish fu'ck ups everywhere but i can't see where we have adequate infrastructure

Sarcasm!

suspectdevice wrote: »

farming as a way of life, a culture is screwed.

They'd better get in line with the buggy whip makers so.

cornbb wrote: »

So yes, the EU has been undeniably good for the whole world, including Ireland, who have also done extraordinarily well in a financial sense.

Sloblocks. We lost three euros for every euro we gained, and thats just in fish stocks.

taconnol wrote: »

You want to try and cook your dinner on an oil stove? Go right ahead. Good luck to you.

I cook it on an electric hob, no luck required.

taconnol wrote: »

Fact. Europe, including Ireland, is highly dependent on Russia for gas. Fact. We are at the far end of the gas pipe. Fact. If Russia turns it off (which they have done in the past), we will be the first to suffer. Fact.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.