How do you see the word "Spirituality"?

Zillah

Settle a disagreement between myself and Sapien if you please. Derived from this thread. Specifically I want to know if people generally associate the word "spiritual" with the supernatural/mystical.

Sapien

Strangely phrased, Zillah. I would have to tick the second box. Did you mean to put it the other way around?

Asiaprod

It is a good argument. I do not rigidly associate the word "spiritual" with the supernatural/mystical only. There are many interpretations, though the most common perspective is definitely an association with things Religious/Mystical.
I lean towards Sapiens's argument. For me, the answer depends on ones perspective. It is no problem for an Atheist to accept that there are forms of spirituality that have nothing to do with Religion or Mysticism. IMO

pH

Spiritual
What to call a belief that perhaps is not terribly plausible or even possible but makes people feel special and magical.
http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com/dictionary.php

Zillah

Sapien wrote: »

Strangely phrased, Zillah. I would have to tick the second box. Did you mean to put it the other way around?

You're the one who was asserting that "spirituality" is not popularly associated with magic/spirits.

Sapien wrote:

And the immediate association with magic is not common - it seems to me like a peculiar hang-up of yours.

Sapien

Zillah wrote: »

You're the one who was asserting that "spirituality" is not popularly associated with magic/spirits.

Not necessarily, or immediately, associated. In your poll, the second option encompasses the first, whereas our disagreement is that you deny the first part as being sufficient. Of course spirituality "sometimes involv[es] spirits, magic, astral journeys and similar things." This really doesn't address the question.

Zillah

There's two main points of disagreement:
1 - Your assertion that spirituality is a good term for a broad range of human experiences such as the experiences we feel as a result from contemplation, meditation, experiencing nature or art.
2 - Whether spirituality is popularly associated with magic and spirits (which you clearly asserted earlier that it was not, describing this as my own peculiar hang up).

This poll is about the second.

Talliesin

Funny, I didn't notice this thread, though I did mention Atheist spirituality in another thread around the same time.

I won't vote because I'm not an Atheist or Agnostic and so not the caucus being polled, but if I were to I wouldn't vote for either.

For one thing, "similar things" is too vague. I don't associate spirituality much with spirits, magic or astral journeys (though I do believe in, and have experienced, all three) but I suspect that you might include under "similar things" things that I wouldn't, since those are three quite different things to my mind.

Another issue is the value of what is "generally associated". There are communities within which "Atheist" is generally associated with a disregard for all concepts of morality. Would you say that general association gives that definition value? Association is not the same as definition.

I would say that association between magic and spirituality is relatively rare. Pretty much the only people to do so are some people who value both (though many who do would not see a connection, or see it as a weak connection) and people who devalue both. This is largely a forced association, IMO - people who do magic label it spiritual to justify it to other spiritual people, or people who devalue both magic and spirituality lump the two together to tar spirituality with magic's brush (given that we live in a society were belief in the efficacy of magic is relatively rare).

And it's pretty hard to see how such a connection could be made, IMO. I can see how such "high" magical works such as the Great Work would be spiritual, and I can see how people may use artefacts of religious belief to which they also respond spiritually in magic, but operative magic is just a means to an end. To turn Clarke's observation on its head, and sufficiently successful operative magic is indistinguishable from advanced technology.

Ultimately, spirituality is about the value human response places on something and the meaning the ascribe to it. Someone who believes in the existence of gods but does not feel anything about them is not being spiritual in that belief. The beliefs I have as a practitioner of a fertility religion as to how reproduction happens is no different to that of anyone else who knows the basics of how chromosomes work; it's the meaning I give to it that makes it a matter of spirituality.

Dades

Option #2 in the poll is option #1, but broader to allow other potential meanings as well. So #2 seems the obvious choice.

I wouldn't generally use the word myself, but I reserve the right to do if I experience some wondrous (supernatural or not) event that seems worthy of it.

Akrasia

Is this a normative question or a positivist one?

Is it how I thing spirituality ought to be used, or how I think Spirituality actually is used, because I personally think people can be spiritual without believing in spirits or the supernatural, but I also believe that when most people use the word they're using it in a mystical way.

iUseVi

Badly worded poll.

calahans

I agree that the two choices aren't really sufficient. I definitely dont associate it with magic, so I would lean toward the first definition.

I think that the term these days is related to elements/thoughts that are related to the essence of a person.

Sapien

Zillah wrote: »

There's two main points of disagreement:
1 - Your assertion that spirituality is a good term for a broad range of human experiences such as the experiences we feel as a result from contemplation, meditation, experiencing nature or art.
2 - Whether spirituality is popularly associated with magic and spirits (which you clearly asserted earlier that it was not, describing this as my own peculiar hang up).

This poll is about the second.

I did not assert that it is not. I asserted that it is not necessarily associated with magic/spirits. I find it difficult to believe that you could have misunderstood me so completely, having discussed it at such length, but there you go. Spirituality may involve magic, and it may not. Hence Alan Watt's musings may be called spiritual, without implying that they have anything to do with spirits. Really quite simple.

Zillah

Sapien wrote: »

I find it difficult to believe that you could have misunderstood me so completely, having discussed it at such length, but there you go.

Did you or did you not say the following?

Sapien wrote:

And the immediate association with magic is not common - it seems to me like a peculiar hang-up of yours.

Apparently 11/19 people so far have the same peculiar hang up.


To the "I don't like the poll" crowd: I don't care. It was designed to settle one specific question, whether you associate the word spirituality with magic/spirits or not. You want to discuss other aspects of it, go nuts, make your own poll.

Zillah

Akrasia wrote: »

Is it how I thing spirituality ought to be used, or how I think Spirituality actually is used

Is more than ought.

Sapien

Zillah wrote: »

Did you or did you not say the following?

Sapien wrote:

And the immediate association with magic is not common - it seems to me like a peculiar hang-up of yours.

I did. People do not immediately associate "spiritual" with "magic". They sometimes do, though. That is not inconsistent.

Zillah wrote: »

Apparently 11/19 people so far have the same peculiar hang up.

There is no way of telling that from your poll. You have said that you refuse to use "spiritual" to refer to non-magical things because you assume people will think you mean magical. That is what I described as your hang-up. There is no way of knowing whether a person shares that concern from the way they answer your poll, which very clearly asks whether spirituality "sometimes" involves magic, et cetera.

bogwalrus

as a positivist vote1 as normalist vote 2 but could have been wordereded differently to be more specific.

i dont believe in the supernatural but consider myself to be spiritual. Is that an ok thing to say? Or do i have to be both? anyway:)

JC 2K3

Spirituality: Feelings of euphoria or profoundness arising from some form of abstract thought.

An evolutionary trait prompting humans to think outside the box?

Sapien

In fact, from the results of the poll - having just checked at 3:44am Thursday - half of those who answered seem not to associate "spirits, magic, astral journeys and similar things" with the word "spiritual" at all! Which surprises (and confuses) me a little, but ultimately can only support my perspective. Presumably most of the other 50% believe that "spiritual" sometimes involves these things. There is no evidence that anyone polled necessarily associates "spiritual" with "spirits, magic, astral journeys and similar things".

I would consider the question solidly settled.

toiletduck

In my experience, as soon as someone starts on about "spirituality" it's followed by some non-sense involving tarot cards, angels or whatever you're having yourself!

aidan24326

I would see the word 'spirituality' as basically being pretty meaningless and open to meaning just about anything a person wants it to. Undefined and arbitrary. Bit like god really.

iUseVi

aidan24326 wrote: »

I would see the word 'spirituality' as basically being pretty meaningless and open to meaning just about anything a person wants it to. Undefined and arbitrary. Bit like god really.

It really does have too broad a meaning. I think we can all agree on that.

18AD

aidan24326 wrote: »

I would see the word 'spirituality' as basically being pretty meaningless and open to meaning just about anything a person wants it to. Undefined and arbitrary. Bit like god really.

Maybe that's the point. It has different meaning to different people. Just like everyone responds differently to various stimuli.
It's what holds meaning to you personally. Wrapped up into one little word, 'spirituality' and applying to anything you want it to!

If spirituality is meaningless to you then it's not part of your spirituality...
And if you want to call it something else then it's, by all means, up to you anyway, because it's yours.

Merry evenings.
AD.

aidan24326

18AD wrote: »

Maybe that's the point. It has different meaning to different people. Just like everyone responds differently to various stimuli.

So 'god of the gaps' just becomes 'spirituality of the gaps'? I don't understand something so rather than admit that I'll just make stuff up instead.

18AD

aidan24326 wrote: »

So 'god of the gaps' just becomes 'spirituality of the gaps'?

I meant that there is no defined path of spirituality that will suit everyone. Eveyone must find their own personally rewarding practice. So the term 'spirituality' refers to different things for different people...

I don't see how it becomes 'spirituality of the gaps'. How does 'meaning' explain things?

I don't understand something so rather than admit that I'll just make stuff up instead.

That's one way to put it. Another is that I don't understand it, so I'll make an effort towards making sense of it, utilising what I know and what other people know in order to do so. I find this approach the most enjoyable.

Good day.
AD.

Zillah

So I was trying to explain a concept to someone the other day and without thinking I used the word spiritual in a completely non-magical sense.

Beruthiel

I would definately see it as the first option and nothing to do with spirits, magic and astral journeys. Those have nothing to do with spirituality and more to do with escapism.

Rev Hellfire

Zillah wrote: »

So I was trying to explain a concept to someone the other day and without thinking I used the word spiritual in a completely non-magical sense.

The word is appropriate for both a worldly experience and one people attribute to a supernatural element to, so option one makes no sense.