Libertas - friend or foe

DishonestPikey

Foe. We elected politicians to make professional informed decisions for us. Who elected Libertas? Don;t get me wrong, they are entitled to their say. But they're not entitled to lie and mislead people - this has been confirmed by the independent referendum commission....yet people still believe them.

Rb

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

thanks for that. It changed my mums vote from a no to a yes showing her that.

She wouldnt believe me that Libertas couldnt be trusted, once I showed her that she actually read the treaty website.

Your mother based her decision on the operations of an airport here in Ireland?!

Rb

DishonestPikey wrote: »

Foe. We elected politicians to make professional informed decisions for us. Who elected Libertas? Don;t get me wrong, they are entitled to their say. But they're not entitled to lie and mislead people - this has been confirmed by the independent referendum commission....yet people still believe them.

Are you implying that because our Government were elected by a (foolish) majority, they're entitled to lie to us?

Libertas aren't elected, nor do they need to be to run a campaign for/against a referendum here. If you don't get that, refrain from voting.

DishonestPikey

Rb wrote: »

Are you implying that because our Government were elected by a (foolish) majority, they're entitled to lie to us?

Libertas aren't elected, nor do they need to be to run a campaign for/against a referendum here. If you don't get that, refrain from voting.

You have missed what I have said completely. Maybe you miss what the treaty says too mmm?

sink

Rb wrote: »

Are you implying that because our Government were elected by a (foolish) majority, they're entitled to lie to us?

Libertas aren't elected, nor do they need to be to run a campaign for/against a referendum here. If you don't get that, refrain from voting.

It's funny how people complaining about others not getting to vote, also complain when we do vote and the vote doesn't got their way.

oscarBravo

Clare_Guy wrote: »

Questioning their motives is irrelevant because if they fulfill the criteria of being irish or at least european then their motivations are clear. The result of this referendum will affect their lives and their families lives.

That is, quite possibly, the most naive thing I've ever read on boards.ie.

BlitzKrieg

Rb wrote: »

Your mother based her decision on the operations of an airport here in Ireland?!

Dont you love how people dont read the full post

hanks for that. It changed my mums vote from a no to a yes showing her that.

She wouldnt believe me that Libertas couldnt be trusted, once I showed her that she actually read the treaty website

I said it changed it. It wasnt the basis of her decision. She didnt believe me initially when I argued against her that the libertas campaign was not to be taken at face value.

The knock airport news link encouraged her to go to the treaty website and actually read what was in the treaty.

Not unlike many other people who passed through here in the weeks coming up to the election she like many other accepted libertas lies.

which isnt hard to believe if you could see my hometown, every large billboard (including the one outside the polling station) are taken up with huge scaremongering libertas adverts.

FrankGrimes

The Indymedia article includes on page one of this thread a link to here which is an article written by Declan Ganley in December 2003 in a publication by the US Foreign Policy Research Institute.

On their About Us page it is stated "FPRI is devoted to bringing the insights of scholarship to bear on the development of policies that advance U.S. national interests."

In that article, under a heading of 'Preventing Disaster' Ganley writes

The forces at work within the Europolitical elites make a momentous force behind this power grab. Each state’s senior socialist and centrist political figures will call for adoption of the draft constitution as a “reasonable compromise” and a “historic achievement”—of which Europe has had too many with sad consequences already. The extreme right and fringe parties will argue against them, which will only make the proponents look more correct.

The convention can only be countered with a true and fair vision for a United Europe. Europeans who until now have kept their views to themselves should mobilize to stop this tide. They must overcome groupings and parties based on legacy national organizations to form a new organization and articulate a clear and achievable vision for Europe’s future. Rather than try to define itself in contradistinction to the United States, this new Europe must be an equal partner and influence for the worldwide extension of justice and liberty. Such a political party— I will for the sake of discussion call it “Libertas”—will need to challenge the engrained composition of the convention in local and regional elections, as well as running candidates at member-state and EU levels. The old structures need shaking up.

It was posted above that it's not clear why Libertas are against the treaty - I think this article makes Ganley's position quite clear.

BMH

Rb wrote: »

Your mother based her decision on the operations of an airport here in Ireland?!

This is not After Hours.

Paulmin

I've been very curious about Libertas - where have they come from? whose funding them? Apparently they are spending about a million euro on the referendum more than any of the political parties. Are they being funded from people living outside Ireland

So I logged onto their site yesterday. And I sent them an e-mail. I asked them: After the referendum will they be publishing the financial backers of their organisation and their country of residence.

This was the reply I got:

Further to your inquiry I can confirm that Libertas will furnish a report as statutorily required to the Standards in Public Office Commission.

I can further confirm that all funds raised by Libertas have been from Irish citizens in accordance with the Electoral Acts and the guidelines laid down by the Standards in Public Office Commission.

We have received no funding from any person or body outside Ireland.

Kind regards,

Naoise.

Naoise Nunn
Executive Director
The Libertas Institute

Rb

Heard last night that Libertas is mainly comprised of Pro-Life/Anti-abortion campaigners (including Caroline Simons - google). No point in mentioning that at the time though, it would only put people off in the same fashion that Sinn Fein's backing of the No vote has put people off.


Regarding the AH comment, well thankfully it is not, would hate to see the same condescending attitude displayed by a lot of posters (that appear to be confined to here) spill into AH to be quite honest.

marco_polo

Rb wrote: »

Your mother based her decision on the operations of an airport here in Ireland?!

Clearly his point went way over your head. That or you are deliberately avoiding the issue as to why a key member of an organisation that has been using neutrality as a cornerstone of its No campaign, is so keen to land Millitary planes in Knock. Isn't this type of thing supposed to be frowned upon by neutrality campaigners?

seanieb

FrankGrimes wrote: »

The Indymedia article includes on page one of this thread a link to here which is an article written by Declan Ganley in December 2003 in a publication by the US Foreign Policy Research Institute.

On their About Us page it is stated "FPRI is devoted to bringing the insights of scholarship to bear on the development of policies that advance U.S. national interests."

In that article, under a heading of 'Preventing Disaster' Ganley writes


It was posted above that it's not clear why Libertas are against the treaty - I think this article makes Ganley's position quite clear.

Frank, may I commend you on your post. I think it sums up their motives. And the relationship to the Foreign Policy Research Institute explains their tactics.

My only question is, why didn't the media pick up on this angle?

IRLConor

seanieb wrote: »

My only question is, why didn't the media pick up on this angle?

Libel/slander suits are expensive.

BMH

seanieb wrote: »

Frank, may I commend you on your post. I think it sums up their motives. And the relationship to the Foreign Policy Research Institute explains their tactics.

My only question is, why didn't the media pick up on this angle?

The Irish Times did, but I imagine the state broadcaster might have been condemned for being biased. Of course, they should have tackled his claims, not his background.

FrankGrimes

IRLConor - I don't think there would have been anything even remotely libellous if the national media highlighted the information I have linked to and repeatedly questioned Declan Ganley as to his motives. I think they would have been fulfilling their duty to the public in doing so.

Personally, I respect the fact that the majority have voted No, but in isolation from that I have grave reservations about what it means for democracy in this country when an entity such as Libertas can effect a significant influence on the outcome of a vote without the public fully understanding their background, why their actions do not fully tally with their stated goals (e.g. the posters talking about neutrality from an organisation with clear military links were a bit much to swallow), and also without transparent funding information being made in a timely manner.

I don't believe that their campaign did influence a majority of the 800k No voters, but I do believe they may have swayed more than the 55,000 voters that if they had voted Yes, would have led to a Yes vote. That is just my personal opinion and many will disagree with it (particularly on a forum such as this where the average poster is, almost by definition, more engaged in this subject matter than the average voter I encounter around Dublin 24 on a daily basis), though I'm not sure there are many people who would hold the Libertas campaign model out as an example of informed, educated democracy at its finest.

IRLConor

FrankGrimes wrote: »

IRLConor - I don't think there would have been anything even remotely libellous if the national media highlighted the information I have linked to and repeatedly questioned Declan Ganley as to his motives. I think they would have been fulfilling their duty to the public in doing so.

Sorry, I should have been more clear.

If anyone came out and said that Libertas and/or Declan Ganley were liars they'd end up going to court over it. The court case wouldn't be over until after the referendum. If they won and proved Libertas were lying then it would be a moral victory but useless for the purposes of the campaign. If they lost, they would have lost a bunch of money for nothing.

TBH, if the politicians had any sense they would have hammered at it in the Dail where they're privileged. It'd make the papers that way and there wouldn't be much comeback for Libertas. Then again, if they had the sense to do that properly they probably would have run a good campaign.

FrankGrimes

Ah, I get ya Conor and yep you're dead right - that would've been a very smart way for the Yes campaign to approach it, but unfortunately, the Yes campaign was a complete shambles devoid of such strategic thinking.

Much as I disapprove of the message and manner of the Libertas campaign, I will admit that they ran a very effective campaign, likewise Sinn Fein. I felt the COIR campaign was simply too juvenile and extreme and that only a small minority of voters would be influenced by such an approach, but I can see how the Libertas approach got more people thinking....though it shouldn't have been too hard for a decent Yes politician to completely rubbish and undermine the Libertas campaign.

IRLConor

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Much as I disapprove of the message and manner of the Libertas campaign, I will admit that they ran a very effective campaign, likewise Sinn Fein. I felt the COIR campaign was simply too juvenile and extreme and that only a small minority of voters would be influenced by such an approach, but I can see how the Libertas approach got more people thinking....though it shouldn't have been too hard for a decent Yes politician to completely rubbish and undermine the Libertas campaign.

It's why in some ways I'm more annoyed at the FF/FG/Lab campaign. I mean, you can't really blame a dog for crapping on a path, that's what dogs do. When the owner doesn't pick it up and bin it though...

jaqian

mike65 wrote: »

Ganley has already stated he has no party political ambitions for Libertas...
Mike.

I thought I read in the Sunday Business Post about him getting into politics here. I got the impression that he might turn Libertas in a political party. Then again its was 2am and could have been reading it ar$e-ways

Kovik

To any Libertas apologists, I would suggest applying the same skepticism to their activities that one would naturally afford any other political group. That they spent potentially upwards of 2 million on their campaign, supposedly raised through a ludicrous number of 6,000 euro contributions (the legal limit) is cause for extreme suspicion. If this were Fianna Fáil, these boards would be unanimous in their condemnation.

Ganley would never make in politics. He survived the Lisbon treaty because he was not vetted the way a politician would. A man that's spent his life exploiting collapsed Eastern European industry and working for US defense contractors would not play well in this country (or anywhere except apparently Italy, really). In addition, the Irish press despises him.

Come to think of it, I'm not even sure Ganley holds Irish citizenship. He's lived here for many years but spent the first 13 in England and most of his professional life abroad. Did he have a photo op voting last Thursday?

It would scare me to no end if Libertas became a party. Thus far, we've avoided the elitist incompetence of so many similarly inclined parties that have taken route across Europe.

Boggle

It would scare me to no end if Libertas became a party.

Why? Compare them to the scum we already elect.

Thus far, we've avoided the elitist incompetence of so many similarly inclined parties that have taken route across Europe.

Let me see: Health, infrastructure, education, planning, law, environment, economy, energy. All areas nicely screwed up the elitist twats we already have.

The only dept that actually works is taxation - does that give you enough of an insight into your current leaders?

ionix5891

Boggle wrote: »

Why? Compare them to the scum we already elect.
Let me see: Health, infrastructure, education, planning, law, environment, economy, energy. All areas nicely screwed up the elitist twats we already have.

The only dept that actually works is taxation - does that give you enough of an insight into your current leaders?

if you think Ireland is bad you should go travel a bit, the other 90% of the countries are much worse of

as for Libertas, can these people be tried for Treason? its disgusting that Ireland now makes Ukraine look good thanks to the US pulling the strings above these Liberats puppets

Kovik

Boggle wrote: »

Why? Compare them to the scum we already elect.

I'm pretty sure no Irish cabinet minister has turned a personal profit on the crumbling industries of an impoverished nation in crisis. Your fantasy of "the system" being inherently corrupt isn't apt in modern Ireland. I vote against Fianna Fáil, but I'm in no way deluded enough to call them "scum."

Let me see:

Okay.

Health,

Emergency services need to be worked on, but the figures for last year showed 80-90% of people satisfied with their general health service treatment.

infrastructure,

Has improved by ridiculous lengths in the past two decades and is set to continue.

education,

Free third level education, high international secondary standards a more favourable proportion of people engaged in employment, training or further education than most other western nations. Education is very good in this country, it's mostly population dynamics causing logistical issues in primary schools. Ever been to school in the UK? Wouldn't recommend it.

planning

By virtue of the fact that the country's economy and services are in relatively very good shape, I'd say they have this nebulous concept down.

law

I have major qualms with family law here, but criminal justice is extremely effective.

environment

A concerted effort is being made to improve this area, more than many of our neighbours though behind some of the most serious zealots. Not like we have a whole lot to clean up, mind you.

economy

Our economy is fantastic. Fifth highest GDP per capita in the world, fifth on the UN human development index, very high employment, extremely buoyant trends in the current climate of downturn, enormous spending power in other eurozone nations. We have a housing bubble (a soft landing one in my view as I think the large investment in property simply reflects a new money economy) and inflation is a wee bit steep. That's about it, really.

energy

What little resources we have are handled without much complaint.

All areas nicely screwed up the elitist twats we already have.

Who are these elitists you speak of? If you're describing Cowen or Ahern as "elitist" then you need to have a look at the Oxbridge/Eton cronyism happening across the Irish sea, or the access major business interests and big money concerns have to the US congress.

The only dept that actually works is taxation - does that give you enough of an insight into your current leaders?

There's a department of taxation?

The Corinthian

ionix5891 wrote: »

as for Libertas, can these people be tried for Treason? its disgusting that Ireland now makes Ukraine thanks to the US pulling the strings above these Liberats puppets

While I agree that given the associations that certain top members of Libertas raise questions as to their motivations, it does not in any way confirm them. It is equally possible, that the motivation of Libertas' Euroscepticism is based upon something completely removed from the interests of a foreign state and that their associations are based upon the principle of 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'. All of which of course is based upon the association of individuals within Libertas rather than any direct association with Libertas itself.

In short, stick to the facts and don't jump to any fantastic conclusions. The reality could well be far more mundane.

jmayo

I know off topic but if poster is going to describe us in such glowing terms then we should debunct some of the myths.

Kovik wrote: »

Emergency services need to be worked on, but the figures for last year showed 80-90% of people satisfied with their general health service treatment.

Obviously the misdiagnosis of numerous cancer cases, the fact that old and sick people are left lying in pain on trolleys doesn't figure on your stats.
These would be the same stats that Harney probably trots out with the next time the shi* flies due to another cockup.

Kovik wrote: »

infrastructure .... Has improved by ridiculous lengths in the past two decades and is set to continue.

At what cost ?
We have paid way over the odds for any development and even then they are unsuitable for current needs never mind future needs.

Kovik wrote: »

Free third level education, high international secondary standards a more favourable proportion of people engaged in employment, training or further education than most other western nations. Education is very good in this country, it's mostly population dynamics causing logistical issues in primary schools. Ever been to school in the UK? Wouldn't recommend it.

Nice speech...
Our education system is held together by sticky tape, particualrly at primary level. Without the help of parents and the tolerance of teachers the whole thing would come crumbling down.

Kovik wrote: »

By virtue of the fact that the country's economy and services are in relatively very good shape, I'd say they have this nebulous concept down.

Are you on something, our economy is a false one, which has been allowed become over dependent on one sector, a sector that is depenedent on cheap credit availability. Our public service is a dinosuar that is inefficient and allowed by the last two governments to become too large.

Kovik wrote: »

I have major qualms with family law here, but criminal justice is extremely effective.

Ah yes it is very effective, espeiclally if you break it.
What is it now for killing someone, 4 odd years behind bars ?

Kovik wrote: »

Our economy is fantastic. Fifth highest GDP per capita in the world, fifth on the UN human development index, very high employment, extremely buoyant trends in the current climate of downturn, enormous spending power in other eurozone nations. We have a housing bubble (a soft landing one in my view as I think the large investment in property simply reflects a new money economy) and inflation is a wee bit steep. That's about it, really.

Yeah what porportion of jobs are construciton related, oh sorry that number is decreasing day by day and so is employment.
Where did all this new money come from ? Oh I know the lending banks :rolleyes:
A soft landing or would that be a hard soft landing or some other such term?
Look at our exports and where they come from, a few multinationals who at any time can pull out when the corpo tax incentive isn't enough to keep them here.
Look at any town that has lost real industry and jobs that have been replaced by retail and construction jobs, how long will they last in the current downturn?

Kovik wrote: »

What little resources we have are handled without much complaint.

Yes they certainly werehandled without much complaint.
They were fu**ing given away.
Oh we have natural gas off the Mayo coast but wait we have to pay market prices to Shell for it because a certain curropt politican gave it away.


As regards Libertas, they have certainly put the cat among the pidgeons and really rocked the political boat. Maybe that is a good thing because politics and particualrly the government parties in Ireland need a swift kick in the ar**.
That is one of the reasons a lot of people voted NO. They do not trust opur politicans to do the right thing for us. They see them as self serving, arrogant, condescending, deceitful.
To use another foul related proverb, "the chickens have come home to roost".

Scofflaw

The Corinthian wrote: »

While I agree that given the associations that certain top members of Libertas raise questions as to their motivations, it does not in any way confirm them. It is equally possible, that the motivation of Libertas' Euroscepticism is based upon something completely removed from the interests of a foreign state and that their associations are based upon the principle of 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'. All of which of course is based upon the association of individuals within Libertas rather than any direct association with Libertas itself.

In short, stick to the facts and don't jump to any fantastic conclusions. The reality could well be far more mundane.

What would concern me there is that the first mention of Libertas is in a talk given by Declan Ganley to a prominent right-wing US think-tank under the remit of securing US interests abroad.

Also, Ganley is a regular speaker on the neo-con/Republican end of US "foreign & security policy" circuit, and has really made no bones about the fact that he would prefer an EU along US lines, and closer to the US. He's an Atlanticist.

As said, that could all be an entirely honest position, and requires no conspiracy theories - but, on the other hand, there have been plenty of signals that the neo-con end of US politics has objections to Lisbon's security elements, while US interests in general would be perfectly well served by an EU crisis during the WTO talks.

cordially,
Scofflaw

The Corinthian

Don't get me wrong; these associations and the lack of financial transparency to date certainly raise disturbing questions. I was merely pointing out that simply saying something is questionable does not automatically equate a motivation as fact.

Kovik

Jmayo, I think responding to a further post would drag the thread far too off topic. If you wish to continue to debate, begin a thread elsewhere or PM me. If you search my post history, I had an identical debate with a number of other people some months ago.

molloyjh

jmayo wrote: »

As regards Libertas, they have certainly put the cat among the pidgeons and really rocked the political boat. Maybe that is a good thing because politics and particualrly the government parties in Ireland need a swift kick in the ar**.
That is one of the reasons a lot of people voted NO. They do not trust opur politicans to do the right thing for us. They see them as self serving, arrogant, condescending, deceitful.
To use another foul related proverb, "the chickens have come home to roost".

If that is the case then why did the people elect the same crowd back in again last year? Surely if the people were so fed up with the Government parties they would have voted for change. One of the big problems we have in this country is that the people are so inconsistant it beggars belief. One minute we say we trust FF, the next we say we don't. Which is it?