Heard rumour

thehair

Vegeta wrote: »

A little yeah, not every second post

Yes, I would like the FCP to be a little more transparent.

Don't think it will happen though. I want results, if the meeting minutes being made public hinder this then I don't mind. If the shooting community can help by commenting on or submitting info based on meeting minutes then there could be benefit from making them public.

+1 steve

Vegeta

rrpc wrote: »

I'm not on the FCP, but I have just spent the last two days and driven four hundred miles for the benefit of all shooters.

I'm not being trying to be an ass hole here so sorry if i come across as one but maybe it would not be such thankless work if folks were actually told what was going on, so we could actually direct thanks and praise.

The majority of people are in favour of the FCP and I for one am very thankful to the people who are on the panel and are doing the work.

From the outside though it seems little has happened and we are told little to nothing of the huge effort put in (for example your 2 day and 400 miles). When you're not told what's being done its hard to be appreciative.

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

According to Sparks himself it wasn't anybody on the FCP. Read his post again.

Well, erm, technically I didn't (I wasn't quite clear enough looking back), but it's true nonetheless. I mean, the complaint did get routed through the FCP members, but it didn't originate with them and I got the impression they were being put in an awkward spot by someone who was basicly throwing a temper tantrum. Which is why I didn't cause a fuss on the day. Though I was tempted to do so, especially when I noticed that the complaint was pointed at me, but several others that day were happily trying to provoke a reaction by pointedly sitting where I had been sitting, tapping away on their laptops. But I figured somethings are more important than my ego. Granted, not many, but still

Sparks

Vegeta wrote: »

I'm not being trying to be an ass hole here so sorry if i come across as one but maybe it would not be such thankless work if folks were actually told what was going on, so we could actually direct thanks and praise.

True that. I know why RRPC did what he did and in a few days we all will and thanks are due to him and others and at that point it'll be obvious and I'll bet they'll be forthcoming; but sometimes I think one of our weaknesses in running this sport is that we've gotten so used to not being able to trust the few bad apples out there that we tend to lock the doors and take on the world alone.
And I'm not any better than anyone else in that regard, I admit, but it's still a valid point I think.

rrpc

Vegeta wrote: »

I'm not being trying to be an ass hole here so sorry if i come across as one but maybe it would not be such thankless work if folks were actually told what was going on, so we could actually direct thanks and praise.

The majority of people are in favour of the FCP and I for one am very thankful to the people who are on the panel and are doing the work.

From the outside though it seems little has happened and we are told little to nothing of the huge effort put in (for example your 2 day and 400 miles). When you're not told what's being done its hard to be appreciative.

Much as thanks and gratitude are appreciated, most people are solely concerned with results. Publishing discussions on topics that are ongoing and incomplete could cause those discussions to fail.

I have no doubt that as agreements are reached, the results will be announced as has been the case with the last report. I think the FCP has only met once since the conference, so to expect something new this early is a bit of a stretch.

I do know that some of the participants have to take time off work in order to attend meetings. This is being taken from their annual leave. Add together what must be at this stage around eight meetings and you've a weeks holidays gone right there.

That's just the meetings. Those who attended the conference were given some of the documents produced by the Panel and they are hefty peices of work. You have to think of the time involved in producing this stuff, adding in everyone's input, passing it around again to make sure it's been properly incorporated, bringing it back to the meeting for final approval and getting further amendments etc. etc.

I'm getting tired just thinking about it

thehair

Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 376
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thank you
at the end of the day we the sports shooter of ireland(32) counties
i hope will have our own (peace process) for the good or better and i thank all the people that work so hard for NOTHING for sports shooting
and all of our interest at HEART THANK YOU steve

[/LEFT]
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[/CENTER]

Vegeta

rrpc wrote: »

Much as thanks and gratitude are appreciated, most people are solely concerned with results.

I agree I suppose I was just trying to give the perspective of someone who can not see what is going on behind the closed doors.

I'm sure the people involved in the FCP who spent their spare time producing that information and taking holidays from work to attend meetings, really appreciate the little regard yhou have for their input, work and sacrifice.

As I say its hard to have the proper level of regard for the work when we don't know how much is being done by who

Publishing discussions on topics that are ongoing and incomplete could cause those discussions to fail.

Fair enough but it can be quite frustrating to be so powerless. Other than boards I wouldn't even know there was an FCP. All the clubs I am a member of have told me fcuk all. I have e-mailed them with my thoughts on reloading and said if they wanted to talk or help just to contact me, none of them even confirmed the receipt of my e-mail. I get 27 days holidays a year, carried over 11 days from last year and have only taken 1 this year so far. I can spare a few

People here are willing to help. So again I feel if it was more open then maybe folk could volunteer to take some of the load.

rrpc

Vegeta wrote: »

I
Fair enough but it can be quite frustrating to be so powerless. Other than boards I wouldn't even know there was an FCP. All the clubs I am a member of have told me fcuk all. I have e-mailed them with my thoughts on reloading and said if they wanted to talk or help just to contact me, none of them even confirmed the receipt of my e-mail. I get 27 days holidays a year, carried over 11 days from last year and have only taken 1 this year so far. I can spare a few

People here are willing to help. So again I feel if it was more open then maybe folk could volunteer to take some of the load.

I understand what you are saying and I appreciate that it is frustrating. It's equally frustrating to be given a job to do and then not trusted to do it properly. I'm not suggesting that that's your point of view, but there are people on here who are constantly sniping at the people they elected to do a job for them.

Whats worse is that unfounded rumours get posted here, some seem to be deliberate attempts to drive a wedge between the various parties involved, with absolutely no regard for the consequences such a split could have for the wider shooting community.

There have been occasions that people have made posts here either deliberately or accidentally which have had far reaching consequences for their own or other clubs and organisations.

The rumour that started this thread has had NARGC members up in arms wanting to know what's going on. Was that the objective?

Grizzly 45

Also a thank you from me,to those who are doing this job,and giving their time and monies.
I was suss about this at first,but seeing that people took the time to post what was going on in this process,it has allayed a lot of my misgivings and fears.I never expect to get a 100% full story,but getting 2/3rd of it will allow anyone to draw their own conclusions as to what is going on in any paticular situation.

And that is one way of sorting out IMO alot of this problem of rumours and infighting.The more info there is out there and that people see it is an open and transparent system,the more I belive the less rumours will circulate about what goes on behind closed doors at the FCP.So it would be proably best if breifs of each meeting are disclosed,and if there is a reason anyone wants the meeting minutes for whatever reason they can apply for them under the freedom of information act.

Vegeta

rrpc wrote: »

There have been occasions that people have made posts here either deliberately or accidentally which have had far reaching consequences for their own or other clubs and organisations.

The rumour that started this thread has had NARGC members up in arms wanting to know what's going on. Was that the objective?

I agree some of the stuff posted here can be and is often potentially damaging to the sport. After becoming a mod, it is very obvious that a lot of people who make decisions on the future of shooting sports read this forum and I wish people would always take that into consideration when posting. A lot of folk don't and it can be very frustrating to have to watch.

Saying all that, if people (on the FCP or other NGBs) don't want rumours being posted then make the facts known. What do they expect, people gossip and share news. I don't blame bunny shooter one bit for posting this to be honest (despite what his motives may or may not be), you cant keep people in the dark and expect them not to speculate, which as you say can often be worse

As others are saying on the other thread if agendas and decisions were being published maybe this would stop or at least discussion on relevant reltaively harmless topics is what we'd see.

This will definitely continue if the FCP keeps as tight lipped as it is, I think they are being naive if they expect no gossip/rumour on such an important happening in shooting sports. I wont personally post rumours as I know it may damage the process but other users might not realise that.

Clash

Vegeta wrote: »

Saying all that, if people (on the FCP or other NGBs) don't want rumours being posted then make the facts known. What do they expect, people gossip and share news. I don't blame bunny shooter one bit for posting this to be honest (despite what his motives may or may not be), you cant keep people in the dark and expect them not to speculate, which as you say can often be worse

This is kinda funny

What you're saying is that a rumour that could potentially damage the negotiating position of your representatives and therefore your sport is OK because they didn't tell you about it in public.

And they're also at fault because they didn't realise that a rumour was going to circulate

JunkieW

Clash wrote: »

This is kinda funny

What you're saying is that a rumour that could potentially damage the negotiating position of your representatives and therefore your sport is OK because they didn't tell you about it in public.

Wasn't the catchphrase 'loose lips sink ships'?

JunkieW

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

And that is one way of sorting out IMO alot of this problem of rumours and infighting.The more info there is out there and that people see it is an open and transparent system,the more I belive the less rumours will circulate about what goes on behind closed doors at the FCP.So it would be proably best if breifs of each meeting are disclosed,and if there is a reason anyone wants the meeting minutes for whatever reason they can apply for them under the freedom of information act.

I don't think you can ever stop rumours no matter what you do. People like the sound of their own voices and you know the old saying that paper nevr refuses ink.

All you have to do is listen to teh news any day or read nwespappers and everyone seems to have a runour or a specualtion about stuff that's going on.

Giving out more information seem to feed the beast, not the other way around.

I just would have thought that people who have the most to lose in wild speculation or passing on information would be the first to make sure that they didnt upset the applecart

doesnt matter if its true or not.

Vegeta

Clash wrote: »

This is kinda funny

What you're saying is that a rumour that could potentially damage the negotiating position of your representatives and therefore your sport is OK because they didn't tell you about it in public.

No what I'm saying is that someone should have specifically told bunny shooter that the info shouldn't be discussed in public

And they're also at fault because they didn't realise that a rumour was going to circulate

Well yeah basically. Someone high up is talking folks, its not our loose lips which are the problem.

If you want no rumours you either close shop completely or become transparent. Info which folk don't want getting out is becoming public, someone told bunny shooter after all, and unless he was told the full story i.e. not to post the info here, then I find it hard to blame him.

Vegeta

JunkieW wrote: »

I just would have thought that people who have the most to lose in wild speculation or passing on information would be the first to make sure that they didnt upset the applecart

doesnt matter if its true or not.

Frustrating as it can be it just doesn't seem to work like that

Clash

Vegeta wrote: »

No what I'm saying is that someone should have specifically told bunny shooter that the info shouldn't be discussed in public

Your making two jumps here. One that the rumour was true which so far I've seen nothing to support it and two that the person who told bunny wasn't intent on doing damage.

Well yeah basically. Someone high up is talking folks, its not our loose lips which are the problem.

Someone is talking and spreading rumours. Who they are and where they're placed is not certain. Apart from any other considerations with regard to rumours, someone overhearing something could draw the wrong conclusions and start a rumour which is completely untrue. Then there's the whole chinese whispers effect where something becomes so garbled in translation that it bears no relationship to the original statement.

If you want no rumours you either close shop completely or become transparent. Info which folk don't want getting out is becoming public, someone told bunny shooter after all, and unless he was told the full story i.e. not to post the info here, then I find it hard to blame him.

There's not much you can do to prevent rumours. I could start one today with no foundation in fact whatsoever and let it out in the public domain to see how far it will go. JunkieW makes the same point above.

I would have thought that people would act responsibly where rumours or any kind of leaked information is concerned. After all, you can't be sure that information that's leaked or otherwise disseminated is true, is advancing someones position in an underhand manner or will just do damage because ill-informed people may take it up wrong.

Sparks

There's not much you can do to prevent rumours.

Except to continually put information out there so that people get used to just going to the original source for information. Which was the point of the FCP conference...

Vegeta

Clash wrote: »

Your making two jumps here. One that the rumour was true which so far I've seen nothing to support it and two that the person who told bunny wasn't intent on doing damage.

Your first point I don't agree with but the second I do. I was considering putting in a disclaimer that I assume bunny shooter or his source were not trying to do the FCP damage.

To the first point telling someone not to put information in the public domain in no way makes the assumption the info is true or false. Its just good practice not to post rumours (again true or false) when they relate to NGBs and the FCP.

Someone is talking and spreading rumours. Who they are and where they're placed is not certain. Apart from any other considerations with regard to rumours, someone overhearing something could draw the wrong conclusions and start a rumour which is completely untrue. Then there's the whole chinese whispers effect where something becomes so garbled in translation that it bears no relationship to the original statement.

I agree completely

There's not much you can do to prevent rumours. I could start one today with no foundation in fact whatsoever and let it out in the public domain to see how far it will go. JunkieW makes the same point above.

Again when people are not informed it increases the damage done and length of a rumour. If everyone here was well informed then your rumour may not go very far at all.

I would have thought that people would act responsibly where rumours or any kind of leaked information is concerned. After all, you can't be sure that information that's leaked or otherwise disseminated is true, is advancing someones position in an underhand manner or will just do damage because ill-informed people may take it up wrong.

Again I completely agree with you but time and time again we see that not everyone takes the above into consideration.

Clash

Sparks wrote: »

Except to continually put information out there so that people get used to just going to the original source for information. Which was the point of the FCP conference...

I read some time ago, coincidentally enough a thread started by bunny shooter where he said something about a body on the FCP giving a list of pistols to the DoJ that could only be used here or something like that.

Everyone denied it strenuously and published information on this board to quash the rumour and yet it persisted.

Publishing stuff didn't help in that case.

Grizzly 45

OTOH,trying to control rumours has been the bane of mankind since the dawn of time.Only way to sort it out is somhow is IMO that the group in charge issues a statement as to what the rumour is and wether it is true or not.Transperency to a degree does work.There is no point in staying sthumm and encouraging the rumour to grow.You wil always have the paranoid petes who belive that there is a conspiricy behind every offical statement as well.Nothing you can do about this either,i find it is best that anyone tries to get as much info and verifies it from a 2nd source before disseminating it as fact goes a long way.

So BS heard this rumour from a "reliable source" is this reliable source the same person who told him the story about the pistol list? If that is the case then BS has two strikes against his reliable source,and should be careful in beliving anything he says in the future.

marlyman

man when is the bs politics going to stop on thid forum about this organistion and that organisation said this and that. im sick of logging onto the boards as a guy interested in shooting, guns and hunting and theres pages of the sh*t. Can we have another subforum for organisational chit chat where people can snipe at eachother and argue their point. that way everyone can blank it out who is not interested. and id say thats quite a few ........

meathstevie

I for one am not the least bit interested in seeing the verbatim records of the FCP meetings. To be quite honest I'm not interested of getting a to the letter record of negotiations, granted it could be quite nice to see positions shift and compromises being made. The only thing I'm interested in is results and and relevant updates being made public ( at least to the shooting community ) as important decisions are being made. So far this has been happening and personally I'm quite happy with the situation as is.

In the meantime I think we should be well aware that a fair few people are investing a good bit of their own time and resources into this proces and that so far the whole setup has been quite fruitfull.

Gunter Mauser

Meathstevie I totally agree, its the only way to keep things on track respecting the effort put into the sport by all concerned, in the end everyone benefits. Give it time.

Sparks

Clash wrote: »

Publishing stuff didn't help in that case.

Because it's not a quick fix. It's something you have to do continuously until people get used to going to the source for information.

Sparks

marlyman wrote: »

man when is the bs politics going to stop on thid forum about this organistion and that organisation said this and that. im sick of logging onto the boards as a guy interested in shooting, guns and hunting and theres pages of the sh*t. Can we have another subforum for organisational chit chat where people can snipe at eachother and argue their point. that way everyone can blank it out who is not interested. and id say thats quite a few ........

You missed the "Target Shooting" and the "Hunting" sub-forums and their "No Politics" rule, didn't ya?

bunny shooter

The representatives of the various shooting organisations involved in this panel are accountable to the members of their organisations.

I don't think this should be forgotten.

Who gave them the right to decide on things without consulation with the members of these organisations ?

This dictatorial attitude is not acceptable.

This thread and others of it's kind are drawing a lot of discussion and there are those attempting to quash the discussions with threats of the FCP collapsing.

I had doubts at the beginning of this venture whether this panel was nothing more than a PR exercise and the more I see the more I am convinced.

The secrecy of it stinks to high heavens.

I heard a rumour and I posted the content of it up here. I looked for feedback.

We got a document recently of all that's been agreed. Well believe me my local Super isn't working to that document ! :mad:

Not worth paper it's written on, cause legally the only way to reverse his decisions is through a ruling in Court. The legislation still says it's the Supers decision on my firearms licence/s refusal or renewal.

So bull****e doesn't baffle brains :mad:

bunny shooter

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

So BS heard this rumour from a "reliable source" is this reliable source the same person who told him the story about the pistol list? If that is the case then BS has two strikes against his reliable source,and should be careful in beliving anything he says in the future.

For the record 2 x different sources

For the record there is no attempt to damage FCP or NARGC

All that I want is some confirmation or denial.

Personally if the NARGC are threatening to pull out as there is/are problems with Gardai and/or Justice then IMO fair dues to them ! The NARGC got us to the point where they DOJ even wanted to talk.

There is no point cowing down to them. Where has it got shooters in the past.

Court cases got us this far, not meetings !

bunny shooter

Clash wrote: »

I read some time ago, coincidentally enough a thread started by bunny shooter where he said something about a body on the FCP giving a list of pistols to the DoJ that could only be used here or something like that.

Everyone denied it strenuously and published information on this board to quash the rumour and yet it persisted.

Publishing stuff didn't help in that case.

Read it again there were admissions of a list/s of photos being given to DOJ

Clash

bunny shooter wrote: »

The representatives of the various shooting organisations involved in this panel are accountable to the members of their organisations.

I don't think this should be forgotten.

Who gave them the right to decide on things without consulation with the members of these organisations ?

You did by electing them to do a job.

This dictatorial attitude is not acceptable.

But your dictatorial attitude is?

This thread and others of it's kind are drawing a lot of discussion and there are those attempting to quash the discussions with threats of the FCP collapsing.

Rumour mongering is hardly conducive to good relations all round.

I had doubts at the beginning of this venture whether this panel was nothing more than a PR exercise and the more I see the more I am convinced.

The secrecy of it stinks to high heavens.

I heard a rumour and I posted the content of it up here. I looked for feedback.

When the first place you should have checked the rumour with is with the body central to that rumour. It's not as though Des Crofton hides his email address or doesn't answer his phone.

We got a document recently of all that's been agreed. Well believe me my local Super isn't working to that document ! :mad:

Not worth paper it's written on, cause legally the only way to reverse his decisions is through a ruling in Court. The legislation still says it's the Supers decision on my firearms licence/s refusal or renewal.

So bull****e doesn't baffle brains :mad:

I agree that there are Supers making it up as they go along, but their position in law is that they are only answerable to the courts. Yet the body that's done the most work in taking these cases to court on your behalf doesn't merit a quick email to ask them about the rumour or to alert them to it's existence?

Clash

bunny shooter wrote: »

Read it again there were admissions of a list/s of photos being given to DOJ

Not the list you were talking about or in the circumstances you described.

Quite like this thread really and every other one that you've started to denigrate the workings and membership of the FCP.