Overtaking

fricatus

lightening wrote: »

You never start an overtaking maneuver until the person overtaking in front of you has completed their one. This is simple learner rules of the road stuff. Both drivers you know need to re-sit their test if the started overtaking behind a car they 'assumed was overtaking"

Well said - I've seen so many cars following another into an overtaking manoeuvre without having a clue what will be in front of them when the first car pulls in. I saw one guy forcing his way in in front of a lorry when the car in front moved back over to the left, revealing an oncoming lorry uncomfortably close! At least the lorry driver on our side had the presence of mind to slow down and let the guy back over.

cabrwab wrote: »

What i meant Zube is that the road marking in this country can be funny sometime, solid white line straight stretch of road clear visiblity nothing coming but you over take a gaurd see's you points!

If there's a white line, it's there for a reason, even though that may not be obvious to you or me. I learned my lesson one day trying to overtake a slow mover on a continuous white line. Turned out the slow mover was slowing to turn right. I tend to trust the white lines now...

WHITE_P wrote: »

As for oncoming traffic I can't see why they have to get all shirty about an oncoming car overtaking if there is a perfectly usable hardshoulder they could move on to safely, again this comes back to their awareness of the road ahead.

Are you for real?

The Rules of the Road say:

"Make sure the road ahead is clear so you have enough distance to allow you to overtake and get back to your own side of the road without forcing any other road user to move to avoid you."

If oncoming road users get "shirty" it's because you're being irresponsible and putting their lives in danger. It was bad enough the OP admitting to leaving only 100m of a gap (1-2 seconds depending on speed), but it is unacceptable to force people onto the hard shoulder so that you can overtake. At national-road speeds, it only takes the oncoming driver to be distracted (by kids, phone, changing the CD) for a couple of seconds, and bang - their lives and yours can be wiped out. No use you explaining to the judge that they should have been watching the road ahead.

I was forced onto the hard shoulder by someone like you a few years back and I had to swerve back out onto the main carriageway because I just caught the reflection from a badly-lit cyclist in front of me. What galls me is that if I'd killed that cyclist, yer man who forced me over onto the hard shoulder would have continued on his way, oblivious to the carnage he'd caused.

WHITE_P

jackhammer wrote: »

Maybe I mis-read this. Are you saying that you can't see why a driver, travelling in the oncoming direction, is getting shirty because he/she is being forced to take evasive action to avoid a head-on collision?

Just an example, a driver starts overtaking when there is no oncoming traffic, a car appears in the distance on the opposite side of the road, and starts flashing lights etc. even though there is loads of room for the overtaking car to complete their manoeuver safely, now I have seen this happen quite a bit on our roads.

Thats what I meant about people getting shirty, its seems to me to be a case of get off MY side of the road.

I personally have moved into the hardshoulder to allow people complete overtaking safely, without ever feeling the need to flash lights etc., afterall no one is infallible when it comes to driving.

WHITE_P

fricatus wrote: »

I was forced onto the hard shoulder by someone like you a few years back and I had to swerve back out onto the main carriageway because I just caught the reflection from a badly-lit cyclist in front of me. What galls me is that if I'd killed that cyclist, yer man who forced me over onto the hard shoulder would have continued on his way, oblivious to the carnage he'd caused.

Come down off your hobby horse there like a good man / woman and read what I actually said, also see my post above for clairification if you need it.

Zube

WHITE_P wrote: »

starts flashing lights etc. even though there is loads of room for the overtaking car to complete their manoeuver safely, now I have seen this happen quite a bit on our roads.

That's an entirely different situation from what you said earlier:

As for oncoming traffic I can't see why they have to get all shirty about an oncoming car overtaking if there is a perfectly usable hardshoulder they could move on to safely, again this comes back to their awareness of the road ahead.

Why bring the hard shoulder into it if there's plenty of room for you to get back onto your own side of the road?

All of us have met people who drive the way your quote there reads: "Here I come overtaking! Everyone out of my way!". This is just playing chicken on the open road, the idiot who thinks he's invincible makes progress, while everyone else scatters out of the dangerous moron's path.

WHITE_P

Zube wrote: »

All of us have met people who drive the way your quote there reads: "Here I come overtaking! Everyone out of my way!". This is just playing chicken on the open road, the idiot who thinks he's invincible makes progress, while everyone else scatters out of the dangerous moron's path.

I think you's are misreading the point I'm trying to make.

Yeah I've seen this situation on the roads, it's not my style, and I personally don't care for it, but I don't think the OP was referring to this type of driving.

But people do get caught out on the wrong side of the road and its no help to them or anyone else if the oncoming car sits there flashing their lights and loosing the head while the overtaking driver tries to sort it all out.

As an instructor on a defensive driving course I did a few years ago said, the person overtaking has enough to be dealing with (when they have made a mistake), without someone coming towards them getting all aggressive.

If its safe to do so, just move over a bit and let them pass.

cyclopath2001

lightening wrote: »

You never start an overtaking maneuver until the person overtaking in front of you has completed their one[/I][/B]. This is simple learner rules of the road stuff.

Interesting, does this mean it's illegal to overtake a cyclist who is overtaking a parked vehicle?

WHITE_P

Lads (Fricatus, and Zube) ask yourself this, are you a perfect driver and have you never made a mistake while driving.

I only ask this because, you are not only misconstruing what I'm saying but you are coming accross as the type of people who would rather take the high moral ground, and continue on a crash course with your lights flashing as you go, than take the safe approach and move over.

Personally I wouldn't overtake nowadays unless I can clearly see that there is enough room for me to do so safely.

WHITE_P

fricatus wrote: »

If there's a white line, it's there for a reason, even though that may not be obvious to you or me. I learned my lesson one day trying to overtake a slow mover on a continuous white line. Turned out the slow mover was slowing to turn right. I tend to trust the white lines now...

You obviously weren't paying attention to the road ahead, your mistake and nothing to do with the road markings. There are plenty of roads in this country that had broken white lines years ago and are now solid, despite no marjor change to the road itself.

StonedParadoX

cabrwab wrote: »

Overtaking is such a funny thing, safe to some unsafe to others, i know the situation where you are waiting a chance to overtake a slow moving car and you've got a person forcing you into the hard shoulder because they think they know better!

But i must say overtake drop it down a gear and go for it quick! With my licence so important for work, i need to only overtake in the correct areas (broken white lines) as not to give an gardai any excuse this is frustrating sometimes to me and other drivers.

I dont give a flip if you want to overtake go ahead, i wont flash at you. What more annoy's me is when your doing for example 100km in a 100zone you pull in to let a guy flying up behind you and they don't say thanks!

iv always wondered about that
i blink anyone with my back lights if they let me in or out
but on the moterway is it really needed?
no i do say thanks anyway

but iv always been curious as to do they know why im thanking them

Fredser

WHITE_P wrote: »

However I do dislike having some muppet 6 inches off my rear right hand corner when I'm travelling along at or above the speed limit.

A nice serving of lime-green phlegm delivered to their windscreen via my rolled down window usually makes them back off.

Seriously.

F

WHITE_P

Fredser wrote: »

A nice serving of lime-green phlegm delivered to their windscreen via my rolled down window usually makes them back off.

Seriously.

F

LOL

Andrewf20

It doesnt happen too often, perhaps 1 in every 30 or so overtakes.

Just to clarify, that when overtaking there would be roughly 100m or more left between me and the car comming towards me by the time I am already pulled back in. It may be more, its hard to say, but I would interpret it as more than enough time / space before the car gets near.

One time I got a hand guesture from a truck driver. Such an idiot, as I had tons of room!

On some of the occasions that I get a flash, its when myself and the car ahead of me are turning right or left onto a new road, but the car ahead takes forever to accelerate. Some people seem to doodle at unbelieveably slow rates, taking forever to get up to 40mph.

fricatus

WHITE_P wrote: »

You obviously weren't paying attention to the road ahead, your mistake and nothing to do with the road markings.

You couldn't be more wrong there. I was paying attention only to the (wide, clear) road ahead and the slow driver - who didn't indicate - ahead of me. What I didn't pay attention to was the white line on that occasion (or the fact that there were a few business premises over on the right - the reason for the white line) and I nearly caused an accident because of it. I drive that route every day and I've learned by experience that I don't always know best...

WHITE_P wrote: »

Lads (Fricatus, and Zube) ask yourself this, are you a perfect driver and have you never made a mistake while driving.

Why is it that if someone like me criticises someone else's obviously dangerous behaviour on the road, that they immediately ask "well, are you the perfect driver?" Of course I'm not! See a few lines back for the proof! But like Jules in Pulp Fiction, I'm trying...

WHITE_P wrote: »

I only ask this because, you are not only misconstruing what I'm saying but you are coming accross as the type of people who would rather take the high moral ground, and continue on a crash course with your lights flashing as you go, than take the safe approach and move over.

Let's be clear about this. You complained about people getting shirty and flashing you when instead they could move over onto the hard shoulder to make way for you overtaking. This clearly implies that you're on their side of the road, and will still be when you pass each other, and you think they should get out of your way. That's EXACTLY what happened to me that time just south of Carlow when I nearly mashed the cyclist and I stick by what I said.

You've since said that that's not what you meant, and fair enough - but all I've got to go on is what you wrote. Sorry if I've got you wrong, but I think we both agree that there's a massive difference between forcing oncoming traffic to use the hard shoulder on one hand, and someone flashing you even though there's still plenty of room and time for you to get back to your own side of the road.

And I agree, the road is the last place one should be taking the high moral ground. I would never, EVER, play chicken in the manner you seem to think I would. However, if someone puts me in danger, I've every right to let them know I'm not happy about it by leaning on the lights and the horn.

WHITE_P

fricatus wrote: »

However, if someone puts me in danger, I've every right to let them know I'm not happy about it by leaning on the lights and the horn.

And that's not taking the moral high ground and being aggressive.

As I said earlier no one is infalible when it comes to driving, but there really is little point in exacerbating an already bad situation by being a pratt.

Just for the record I've never put anyone in the situation where they have had to pull onto the hardshoulder while I overtook another car on my side of the road, in fact the few times in 22 years of driving that I have been flashed, I have been comfortably back on my own side of the road and relaxed enough to respond with nice big wave.

Funny you mention Carlow, because I had to come to a dead stop in the road one time near Carlow as a woman driver coming the other way overtook a line of traffic, I don't think she even saw me as she passed the front of my car with inches to spare, there was no hardshoulder on that occassion that I could have moved into either.

peasant

I DO flash people when they come too close for comfort on "my" side of the road ...not because I'm enyoing the view from my high horse or because I may feel the need to communicate my rage or the ROTR or whatever ...but to make DAMN SURE that they've actually seen me and that I'm not the only one taking evasive maneuvres.

Duckjob

As with most of these situations, a bunch of people posting on an internet forum are highly unlikely to be able to usefully call a given overtake as safe or dangerous. The only ones qualified to make that call or the occupants of the cars in question IMO.

Some people are over nervous on the road anyway, and for others, the constant diet of "Speed Kills" hype from the government has brainwashed them into thinking anybody performing an overtake is a homicidal lunatic that has to be reprimanded by flashing their lights.

WHITE_P

Duckjob wrote: »

The constant diet of "Speed Kills" hype from the government has brainwashed them into thinking anybody performing an overtake is a homicidal lunatic that has to be reprimanded by flashing their lights.

Couldn't agree with you more.

Now get OFF my side of the road (Joke)

slimjimmc

peasant wrote: »

I DO flash people when they come too close for comfort on "my" side of the road ...not because I'm enyoing the view from my high horse or because I may feel the need to communicate my rage or the ROTR or whatever ...but to make DAMN SURE that they've actually seen me and that I'm not the only one taking evasive maneuvres.

+1

Esel

Andrewf20 wrote: »

...when I get good visibility and its safe to do so, I will overtake, only then to get horns or lights flashed at me from either people driving towards me (despite having roughly 100m distance between me and them by the time I have pulled back in), or by the person I have just passed. I have to be honest and say it really gets on my nerves.

100m = 1.5 sec to 3 sec depending on speeds. I'd say you are getting on their nerves.

Black_Knight wrote: »

Countless times ive passed out cars only to find they are tailgating another car...

Riiight...

Marcus.Aurelius wrote: »

And to all the space hoggers, stay back from the car in front by at least 2 car-lengths for God's sake! :mad:

Because that's all you need to pull back in, yeah?

WHITE_P wrote: »

Personally I wouldn't overtake nowadays unless I can clearly see that there is enough room for me to do so safely.

You finally got sense.

peasant wrote:

I DO flash people when they come too close for comfort on "my" side of the road ...not because I'm enyoing the view from my high horse or because I may feel the need to communicate my rage or the ROTR or whatever ...but to make DAMN SURE that they've actually seen me and that I'm not the only one taking evasive maneuvres.

+1. Hope some of the posters on this thread take your point on board.

RobAMerc

Duckjob wrote: »

Some people are over nervous on the road anyway, and for others, the constant diet of "Speed Kills" hype from the government has brainwashed them into thinking anybody performing an overtake is a homicidal lunatic that has to be reprimanded by flashing their lights.

+1 - 100%

You can't even overtake at the speed limit now and folk are calling you a lunatic while the twats going along in a procession at 20kms under the limit are 'Safe' :rolleyes: my boll*x

unkel

I do a lot of overtaking and I don't recall being flashed by traffic coming from the opposite direction

Andrewf20 wrote: »

having roughly 100m distance between me and them by the time I have pulled back in

100m is nowhere near enough (as first commented on this thread by Pete67). As he rightly states, if the overtaker significantly exceeds the speed limit and the uncoming traffic goes faster than the limit too on a national road, there isn't much more than a second in it before collision.

I'm shocked to read some of the posts in this thread, to be frank...

Conar

Fredser wrote: »

A nice serving of lime-green phlegm delivered to their windscreen via my rolled down window usually makes them back off.

Seriously.

F

I'm not quite as hardcore but I find that my front windscreen wipers kick a reasonable amount of water over the back of my car so if someone is tailgaiting they get a lot of awkward spray. Works quite well.

OP, this has quite often happened to me and so many times and while on the section of N4 between Kilcock and Enfield on the overtaking area when there is no oncoming traffic and I leave plenty of room.
I also find that most people tend to accelerate when they are being overtaken.....whats up with that?

Now don't get me started about how people go around that N4/M4/Kilcock roundabout in the wrong lane and start trying to cut me off when I get to my exit :mad:

Andrewf20

Folks, as per my post in page 5, 100m is at best a very rough guess. Believe me though, there is always plenty of space, otherwise I wouldnt pull out.

Steve

Andrewf20 wrote: »

Folks, as per my post in page 5, 100m is at best a very rough guess. Believe me though, there is always plenty of space, otherwise I wouldnt pull out.

Just bear in mind the next time you do it that you are essentially driving at 200kph towards a brick wall and leaving your self 100m or 1.8 seconds grace to avoid death.

Look at your watch and see how long 1.8 seconds actually is - even double it and think long and hard about how little you're leaving yourself if something goes wrong.

The most important thing to think about before making any decision on overtaking is "what are my escape options if it all goes tits up?"

What if the guy you are overtaking turns out to be an muppet who's just finished his phone call and decides to pick the moment you're overtaking and in his blind spot to speed up again?

I'm hot on a high horse BTW, I do my share of overtaking and admit to using the go pedal to minimise time on the wrong side of the road. All I'm asking you to do is be prepared for the worst before you start, that way you have a better chance of not killing yourself and taking out an innocent as well.

Andrewf20

I have experienced that also, when the person ahead decides to floor it while im overtaking. Beggars belief.

WHITE_P

esel wrote: »

You finally got sense.

? Pedantic or what.

I didn't mean nowadays literally, and if you read some of my other posts you will see that I not only have responsible attitude to my driving, I'm quite prepared to forgive others who may get it wrong, without feeling the need to vent any anger on them.

Some people here need to chill out a bit, its not about who's right and who's wrong, we should all try to be as responsible as is humanly possible when driving.

Zube

WHITE_P wrote: »

Some people here need to chill out a bit, its not about who's right and who's wrong, we should all try to be as responsible as is humanly possible when driving.

I disagree. There is right and wrong on the road, and it's a matter of life and death. On the law of averages, several people will die this weekend, and it's quite likely one of those accidents will be an overtaking manoeuvre gone wrong.

You have back-pedalled away from your "shirty oncoming drivers won't use the hard shoulder" comment when people pointed out how bonkers it was, but I meet people driving that way every week.

peasant

The safest way to approach an overtaking maneuvre (besides following the obvious ROTR stuff) is to imagine that somwhere just beyond your line of sight in oncoming traffic someone is about to pull off the same maneuvre as you are about to.

Or to imagine that just behind that bend that forms the end of your overtaking zone, that there is an accident / tractor blocking the road.

Always expect the worst and only overtake when you are sure that you can do so safely even in the worst possible scenario.

If not ...just take a chill pill and wait.

_Kaiser_

I travel mostly on N-roads and all too often get stuck behind a convoy of traffic doing 70-90 because the guy/girl at the top of the queue won't move in to let everyone else past them.

So, when the opportunity presents itself I'll generally end up overtaking several at once to try and get past them - or especially if the person in front is the type to brake randonly for no good reason. I think it's better to have a clear road ahead and people like that behind me.

As far as the manouevre itself goes, I reckon the less time spent on the other/wrong side of the road the better so I do tend to exceed the limit until I complete the move, after which I drop back to the posted/appropriate speed - it does help though that I've a 2.0L TDI under me.. as someone posted a few pages back, people who overtake only slightly faster than the car in front or those who just don't have the power to do it quickly enough, just shouldn't bother.

Zube

peasant wrote: »

imagine that somwhere just beyond your line of sight in oncoming traffic someone is about to pull off the same maneuvre as you are about to.

+1

How many of the tear-down-the-white-line overtakers would live if they met themselves coming the other way instead of sane, defensive drivers who dodge out of their way, brake to let them back into traffic, slow down to keep the hell away from them etc.