Unfair Tag Rugby Grades

Worrytahs

Amz wrote: »

The same refs aren't there every week. Our coach from last year refs there and he's an AIL ref, but he hasn't been there every week.

The core of 6-7 refs for each night are there most weeks. I allow them time off for holidays and to see their family from time to time

Amz

Oh I've no issue with it not being the same refs week in week out. I know people have lives.

quad_red

Played my second ever tag rugby game last night and it was an eye opening experience.

A team of absolute losers who have put themselves into the bottom league and are proceeding to annihilate every team they play. To put it into context they've scored twice as many points and have three times the points difference as the team in second place in the league.

With four games played.

They were dour and humourless and were nigh on taunting. What satisfaction could they get from that

Luckycharm

Amz wrote: »

Elaborate please?

If Worrytahs is prepared to advertise and encourage participation in the IRFU tag he has to be answerable for it too. This is a discussion forum.

However, if personal abuse is being directed towards Worrytahs as a result of his association with the IRFU tag I will be taking a very dim view of it.

I know Worrytahs so it was an in joke

By the way there is an alternative to the IRFU and ITRA tag that goes all year around.

Luckycharm

To be fair to the organisers of new venues. It is very hard for them to know who are the good teams and who are the bad ones at a new venue. Teams change names, players change venues.
If leagues are full you cannot simply pull one team out of a league if there is no where else to put them? Unfortunately some teams take Tag waaaay too seriously and if they want to get their agression they should join a real rugby team. Often found also the women can be as bad as the men.
Another point I feel sorry for refs who have to ref teams that have never played the game before - have no idea of the rules, constantly offside, handing off etc. The ref could penalise them every 20 secs but they try and accomadate them a bit while they come up to speed, this can also be frustrating for other teams who know the rules and these players give the ref abuse for being Lenient on them

valleyoftheunos

Luckycharm wrote: »

I know Worrytahs so it was an in joke

By the way there is an alternative to the IRFU and ITRA tag that goes all year around.

A little more info perhaps?

Luckycharm wrote: »

To be fair to the organisers of new venues. It is very hard for them to know who are the good teams and who are the bad ones at a new venue. Teams change names, players change venues.
If leagues are full you cannot simply pull one team out of a league if there is no where else to put them? Unfortunately some teams take Tag waaaay too seriously and if they want to get their agression they should join a real rugby team. Often found also the women can be as bad as the men.
Another point I feel sorry for refs who have to ref teams that have never played the game before - have no idea of the rules, constantly offside, handing off etc. The ref could penalise them every 20 secs but they try and accomadate them a bit while they come up to speed, this can also be frustrating for other teams who know the rules and these players give the ref abuse for being Lenient on them

My experience is that In those teams who are decimating everyone The guys are physical and agressive while the Girls taunt and gloat, despite the fact that they might not touch the ball more than twice in a game.

Luckycharm

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

A little more info perhaps?



My experience is that In those teams who are decimating everyone The guys are physical and agressive while the Girls taunt and gloat, despite the fact that they might not touch the ball more than twice in a game.

If you want to play Tag in the Autumn look up http://www.astro.ie

Disagree I have been playing tag since the beginning and touch before tag started. A twat is a twat, I often find you get the most hassle when you get 2 good teams who are very close and it gets too competitive. THe other times you get hassle are when you get new players to the game who have no clue of the rules (there can be alot of them for new players) and start getting arguementive and question every decision. You do need a strong ref to put them both back in their box.
At the end of the day it is only supposed to be a bit of fun and some teams take it too seriusly. You can spot a player who has played rugby very quickly simply by the way they do simple things draw and pass etc.

valleyoftheunos

Luckycharm wrote: »

If you want to play Tag in the Autumn look up http://www.astro.ie

We played with Astro last autumn and decided not to go back to them in the spring, it was quite expensive but there seemed to be minimal organisation. Wouldn't rule them out in future but not overly keen.

Diamondmaker

Never played tag at home but am involved in the league equivilent here.

At the beginning of the season there are 4 / 6 games played out of a random pool. This is used as grading and then the teams appropriately get allocated based on their results, the competiton league they enter.

Sounds a bit of a mess the way the grading is self declaration as being described here.

Amz

Let's face it though folks, really tag rugby, in this country, is primarily a money making operation.

If it wasn't making money for these various groups it wouldn't be run. So if grading and organisation aren't top notch, it's because they don't have to be, it's going to continue until people put pressure on the various groups; IRFU, ITRA, Astro, to get their acts together.

I can understand IRFU have some teething problems as it's only their second year, but one would hope that they'll be eliminated by summer '09.

DaveMR

Guys,
have just read with interest the various views and opinions on TAG here and I thought I'd throw in my opinion and experience.
Let me start by saying I am involved in organising an IRFU tag rugby venue. I dont work for the IRFU and in fact have never played rugby of any shape or form, so I feel I can look at the game with an open view
It is our clubs first year undertaking tag and in general I would like to think that it has been a success both from a playing and more importantly a social point of view. The bottom line is that TAG rugby is ultimately meant to be a social and enjoyable offshoot of what is a very competitive sport.
In relation to some of the points brought up in the thread so far including competitive individuals, grading, referees & the money making aspect
Yes - the clubs are using TAG as a fundraising exercise but it really isnt the main priority (in fact we will probably only cover the costs) and I would imagine most clubs are hoping to make most money from their bars in the clubhouses!
Grading can be very difficult, particularly if it is a first year and to a certain extent you have to rely on people's honesty in where they place themselves. There will always I'm sure be individuals that try and place themselves in a league that they know they are too good to be playing in - but you can only try and manage those situations once they happen. In fact we have experienced the opposite, where teams have underestimated their own standard and put themselves in too high a grade.
In order to overcome grading issues, we are also streaming/seeding teams after a few weeks of games and promoting/moving teams. Teams then arent stuck with 8 weeks of one team dominating a league or one team losing every match.
I would also reiterate that referees are giving up their time and commitment on a voluntary basis. If people have serious issues with Referees I would recommend they should let their venue managers know of their specific issues. Sometimes players have misinterpreted the rules and occasionally the referees get it wrong too - they are only human. But a quick chat with an organiser could sort it out
Again I would say that TAG should be a social sport and I'm sure most venue managers, either IRFU or ITRA, are trying to ensure that the majority of players come home having enjoyed the evening whether they have won or lost.

valleyoftheunos

The Refs cant get it right everytime, they can only call what they see.

valleyoftheunos

After my last post this was bound to happen,

Played a game last night, nice friendly, fair, and FAST team against us good fun to play against but the ref was a complete tool.

On more than one occasion he verbally demonstrated a complete lack of knowledge of the rules and had absolutely no consistency in what he called. in one passage of play he's warnignt he Oppo not to block their tags then 30 seconds later they are batting hands away all over the place, right in front of him and he calls nothing!

Like I said they can only call what they see but when they dont call whats right in front of them its incredibly frustrating. I wanted to complain but I wasn't captain and really, whats the point?

Diamondmaker

I think thngs need a bit of perspective:

Pro, full time refs get dogs abuse week in week out from fans.

How much better can tag, un paid refs possibly be.

If someone thinks they can do better go ref. All associations are desperate for refs, but who wants to be a ref ?!?!?

When players consider themselves as good as pro players then they have the right to request the refs are as good as pro refs !

Why would people expect the standard of reffing be any better than standard of player in any given league?!

Give the poor guys a break!

On a seperate note the refs here are paid, ( no idea how much ) on average I dont ever have a grievence with them and they all see pretty good.

Downtime

Diamondmaker wrote: »

I think thngs need a bit of perspective:

Pro, full time refs get dogs abuse week in week out from fans.

How much better can tag, un paid refs possibly be.

If someone thinks they can do better go ref. All associations are desperate for refs, but who wants to be a ref ?!?!?

When players consider themselves as good as pro players then they have the right to request the refs are as good as pro refs !

Why would people expect the standard of reffing be any better than standard of player in any given league?!

Give the poor guys a break!

On a seperate note the refs here are paid, ( no idea how much ) on average I dont ever have a grievence with them and they all see pretty good.

Well said - couldn't have put it better. Refs are there to enjoy themselves too!!

valleyoftheunos

Diamondmaker wrote: »

I think thngs need a bit of perspective:

Pro, full time refs get dogs abuse week in week out from fans.

How much better can tag, un paid refs possibly be.

If someone thinks they can do better go ref. All associations are desperate for refs, but who wants to be a ref ?!?!?

When players consider themselves as good as pro players then they have the right to request the refs are as good as pro refs !

Why would people expect the standard of reffing be any better than standard of player in any given league?!

Give the poor guys a break!

On a seperate note the refs here are paid, ( no idea how much ) on average I dont ever have a grievence with them and they all see pretty good.

Similarly if you aren't up to the job dont do it. there are plenty of refs struting about the place, "asserting" themselves when they haven't a clue.

Diamondmaker

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

Similarly if you aren't up to the job dont do it. there are plenty of refs struting about the place, "asserting" themselves when they haven't a clue.

Oh get a grip man.

If that was the case you would be sent home every odd week due to there being no ref.
Better a rookie than NO ref !

Where do you expect poor refs to cut their teeth?

Tag is the lowest of the low, with regards to player standards. SO why would the refs to be expected to be better than the players?

They dont get paid, so obviously some are doing it to improve - to perhaps move up the chain, or just to keep fit, or just get some form of enjoyment or kick from it !

Ill say it again! when you are any where as good as pro, then you can expect the refs to be at that level - still getting dogs abuse from fans !

The only tie to reffing I have was going to an ITRA ref course to help out as they were desperate one day. It was tough and I did not go back as it is a alot harder than you may think. And who really needs all the grief when they make an error from a bunch of players up their ass!

dub_skav

To clear one thing up. ITRA refs are getting paid this year. Not a huge amount I will admit but paid nonetheless.
I have reffed ITRA tag and I think the "training" is appalling. I myself know the rules very well so didn't have many problems, but if I was going purely on the ITRA training I wouldn't have a bogs notion.

However, my major gripe with refs is that there is a very simple rule of no contact. Any time there is contact it is a penalty offence - this can be harsh in the case of slips - but it needs to be very clear that contact will not be tolerated. However, referees let a lot of players away with murder.

valleyoftheunos

Just a few things pal

Diamondmaker wrote: »

Oh get a grip man.

If that was the case you would be sent home every odd week due to there being no ref.
Better a rookie than NO ref !

Where do you expect poor refs to cut their teeth?

Tag is the lowest of the low, with regards to player standards. SO why would the refs to be expected to be better than the players?

Keep your Judgements to yourself

They dont get paid, so obviously some are doing it to improve - to perhaps move up the chain, or just to keep fit, or just get some form of enjoyment or kick from it !

IRTA refs are paid

Ill say it again! when you are any where as good as pro, then you can expect the refs to be at that level - still getting dogs abuse from fans !

Not expecting any pro refs, just ones who actually know the rules and apply them consistantly.

The only tie to reffing I have was going to an ITRA ref course to help out as they were desperate one day. It was tough and I did not go back as it is a alot harder than you may think. And who really needs all the grief when they make an error from a bunch of players up their ass!

I've done two IRTA ref courses so I know exactly how it is, I'd be reffing myself but for work commitments which mean I struggle to get to half of my own games. I dont chat back to Refs but there have been occasions when calls or inconsistencies have been so bad I've had to air grievences after a game.

GreenHell

Easy there. Its only tag....

/me runs for cover

Diamondmaker

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

Just a few things pal

I stand corrected with regards pay, but that just goes to show they couldnt get people to do it other wise as this is a new thing.

On average there are many pepole who have never even seen a game of rugby, let alone played, in tag leagues. It is therefore fair to say that the standard of average player, would be lower than any other organised leagues.

Everything else you say is objective, so I wont comment further, you are entitled to your view.

valleyoftheunos

Diamondmaker wrote: »

I stand corrected with regards pay, but that just goes to show they couldnt get people to do it other wise as this is a new thing.

On average there are many pepole who have never even seen a game of rugby, let alone played, in tag leagues. It is therefore fair to say that the standard of average player, would be lower than any other organised leagues.

Everything else you say is objective, so I wont comment further, you are entitled to your view.

If you had read the original post you would realise that the initial point of this thread is the inordinately high standard of play in tag rugby.

Downtime

dub_skav wrote: »

To clear one thing up. ITRA refs are getting paid this year. Not a huge amount I will admit but paid nonetheless.

It should be pointed out that they are not getting paid to referee tag they are getting paid out of pocket expenses e.g. food / fuel allowance. All referees that are associated with a province are paid expenses during the regular season. There is a difference. It doesn't make them professionals!!

IMHO the fact that they are getting a few quid makes the standard worse as the demand to referee is high and ITRA can't cope with the demand and do not have the bodies to go out and train / assess and coach referees. It was a stupid move to offer any money. I agree with Amz when she said that it is a money making racket - the referees in tag are not answerable for their poor standards as referees in the 15 man game are.

valleyoftheunos

Downtime wrote: »

It should be pointed out that they are not getting paid to referee tag they are getting paid out of pocket expenses e.g. food / fuel allowance. All referees that are associated with a province are paid expenses during the regular season. There is a difference. It doesn't make them professionals!!

IMHO the fact that they are getting a few quid makes the standard worse as the demand to referee is high and ITRA can't cope with the demand and do not have the bodies to go out and train / assess and coach referees. It was a stupid move to offer any money. I agree with Amz when she said that it is a money making racket - the referees in tag are not answerable for their poor standards as referees in the 15 man game are.

I'm a bit confused here, are you talking about IRFU tag or ITRA tag? ITRA Refs are paid to ref tag, ther more matches reffed in a night the more they are paid.

Diamondmaker

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

I'm a bit confused here, are you talking about IRFU tag or ITRA tag? ITRA Refs are paid to ref tag, ther more matches reffed in a night the more they are paid.

It is all so confusing, isnt it.

If you had read the original post you would realise that the initial point of this thread is the inordinately high standard of play in tag rugby.

Downtime

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

I'm a bit confused here, are you talking about IRFU tag or ITRA tag? ITRA Refs are paid to ref tag, ther more matches reffed in a night the more they are paid.

IRFU Tag refereeing is not paid. ITRA tag referess are paid expenses not to referee the game. They get paid more expenses the more they referee. There is a difference in paying someone to do a job and paying them expesnes. ITRA clearly state that it is expenses so they are less accountable for the referees actons and to distinguish it from a professional form of refereeing.

valleyoftheunos

Downtime wrote: »

IRFU Tag refereeing is not paid. ITRA tag referess are paid expenses not to referee the game. They get paid more expenses the more they referee. There is a difference in paying someone to do a job and paying them expesnes. ITRA clearly state that it is expenses so they are less accountable for the referees actons and to distinguish it from a professional form of refereeing.

I have no experience of the IRFU situation so I cant comment but ITRA pay €10 for one match reffed on a night, €25 for two and €45 for three, thats an attempt to get people to ref more matches, they can say its only expenses but if that were the case it would be one payment regardless of how many many games a person Refs

JWAD

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

I have no experience of the IRFU situation so I cant comment but ITRA pay €10 for one match reffed on a night, €25 for two and €45 for three, thats an attempt to get people to ref more matches, they can say its only expenses but if that were the case it would be one payment regardless of how many many games a person Refs

Before tax of course, yes?

valleyoftheunos

JWAD wrote: »

Before tax of course, yes?

Tax? oh yes of course em tax, yes before Tax, certainly.

Sundy

Theres no tax on expenses.

But i have to agree with the complaints about bad refs in ITRA. Il excuse a ref for missing foul play, knock on etc but some of them just dont know the basic laws of rugby. One ref we had was giving a knock on everytime the ball hit the ground and it wasnt a forward pass if you caught it! Allowing a guy like that to ref is asking for trouble.