Today's Irish Times

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

Yes, he would be, as would the Prime Time editors. Even if the mods had to take it in shifts to enforce the "be civil" rule

Ohhhhhhh dont worry yourself on that point Sparks....I'll be civil,verry civil.Would suggest wearing Artic mitts tho when typing,and Artic kit when reading:D

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Sparks,
Where exactly do you see that PT left him out to dry???As far as I see PT in the last page stated "that they had no reason to doubt his competance."

Yup, that's the spot. Because now when we show that the technical details in the report were wrong, RTE just says "Oh, we already said we relied on Clonan's technical expertise, how were we to know it was wrong?".

cavan shooter

Guys, it was a positive article compared to the last couple of news items and I think thats what counts. RRPC is right when he said what was printed was printed and what was aired was aired.

Focus on the positive:)

G17

cavan shooter wrote: »

Focus on the positive:)

It's Friday, tomorrow, we go shooting!! WOO HOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Johnathon Swift

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

2] I dont buy for ONE instant that PT chopped out everything positive that Dr Clonan might have said about shooting and just left negative coments in there.
3] I dont like people who blow hot and cold on an issue,who have public influence,or set themselves up as "experts" then when the going gets rough turn around and try an appease the opposite side,by playing to their weaknesses.
I would have more respect for the man if he had stayed sthumm and waited the outcome of the BCC,than trying a pretty underhanded tactic like this.He threw us an article,and we are all now falling all over ourselves congratulating him on being such a decent ,nice,terribly misunderstood chap,that was edited out in the programme????

Grizzly 45, for once I agree with you

Vegeta

Johnathon Swift wrote: »

Grizzly 45, for once I agree with you

lol

meathstevie

Personally I can only see one reason why Tom Clonan wrote this article and that's an attempt to rectify what was broadcast by RTE.

Especially making the point that there are justified reasons for civilian possession of high powered full bore rifles and full bore pistols and emphasising the high level marksmanship and stringent safety precautions makes me think that this is a genuine attempt at putting the record straight.

As for RTE sticking by the point that they deem Mr. Clonan's expertise sufficient for them to rely on is a very handy position indeed. Edit a few answers to questions about potential risks and capabilities of certain ammunition out of context and pass the hot spud to the expert when the booboo hits the prop.

I don't know if any of you do but I clearly remember Mr Clonan's coverage of the Beslan school siege on the Pat Kenny show as events were unfolding and except the grief and anger I felt as a father I can clearly recall a man who was delivering very clear comments and not in the least about the sort of armaments and their completely unsuitable nature for the job at hand used by the security forces there. At that moment I was very positively surprised about his level of competence on such matters so I could hardly believe that the same man would be spouting such scaremongering about highly monitored and regulated possession of sporting arms in Ireland.

Suffice to say that his article goes a long way towards putting the record straight and the fact that it was published in a quality newspaper with his name under it, hereby assuming full responsibility for it's content, only adds to this.

patbundy

meathstevie wrote: »

Personally I can only see one reason why Tom Clonan wrote this article and that's an attempt to rectify what was broadcast by RTE.


i agree stevie


Suffice to say that his article goes a long way towards putting the record straight and the fact that it was published in a quality newspaper with his name under it, hereby assuming full responsibility for it's content, only adds to this.

im afraid stevie its only a start on a very long road to be (as grizzly said) forgiven. in my books the media couldnt give two sh*ts about us. dont worry lads given half a chance clonan will put the boot in again.
btw welldone to the midlands

rrpc

patbundy wrote: »

im afraid stevie its only a start on a very long road to be (as grizzly said) forgiven. in my books the media couldnt give two sh*ts about us. dont worry lads given half a chance clonan will put the boot in again.
btw welldone to the midlands

You might bear in mind that Midlands hosted this press briefing in the full knowledge of what happened the last time and were prepared to put it behind them.

Something we should all be capable of I think.

meathstevie

Plain and simple, give the media half a chance to put guns, havoc and mayhem in one sentence they will. Tabloids sell and the station gets viewers. Remember the bullshet that went on when Willy O'Dea posed with a pistol owned by his department.

Especially for this reason I think Tom Clonan's article is genuine. It would have been so much easier to do nothing and stick to the original line out there. Specificly so for the simple reason that a lot of non-firearms savvy people go completely bananas when you mention guns, be it legal or illegal ones.

Even when PT cobbled their program together they wouldn't have had an ounce of trouble finding a score of Supers stating that they have no problem at all approving the overwhelming majority of firearms applications.

patbundy

rrpc,it might be easy for some but i personally dont like to be connected to dunblane,do you?

patbundy

rrpc i do mean welldone to the midlands and the lads

thehair

patbundy wrote: »

rrpc,it might be easy for some but i personally dont like to be connected to dunblane,do you?

+ 1steve i agree pat dunbland no thank you

thehair

patbundy wrote: »

im afraid stevie its only a start on a very long road to be (as grizzly said) forgiven. in my books the media couldnt give two sh*ts about us. dont worry lads given half a chance clonan will put the boot in again.
btw welldone to the midlands

pat think:eek:Focus on the positive;)steve

Grizzly 45

Personally I can only see one reason why Tom Clonan wrote this article and that's an attempt to rectify what was broadcast by RTE.

Considering that the man works as a media advisor,teaches media studies,and features regurlarly on our TV screens and radio.I cant belive that he would not know what kind of pitfalls and double talk the media could pull on such a topic,and that anything remotely sensationalist would not be aired??Go on outta tha!

Especially making the point that there are justified reasons for civilian possession of high powered full bore rifles and full bore pistols and emphasising the high level marksmanship and stringent safety precautions makes me think that this is a genuine attempt at putting the record straight.

And three weeks before he is predicting dire consequences of mere civillians owning such firearms on the national airwaves?? Which is it?We are safe and okay or we are nutters ready to take out a schoolyard??
Would it not be better to say."say listen about that PT programme,a lot of what I said was edited and taken out of context,and I am sorry if ti looked like I implied that the Irish gunowner is a dangerous person.

As for RTE sticking by the point that they deem Mr. Clonan's expertise sufficient for them to rely on is a very handy position indeed. Edit a few answers to questions about potential risks and capabilities of certain ammunition out of context and pass the hot spud to the expert when the booboo hits the prop.

Doesnt get them off the hook though.By admitting that and passinjg the hot spud to the Doc,all he has to do is state that he was quoted out of context and the questions were such and such.

I don't know if any of you do but I clearly remember Mr Clonan's coverage of the Beslan school siege on the Pat Kenny show as events were unfolding and except the grief and anger I felt as a father I can clearly recall a man who was delivering very clear comments and not in the least about the sort of armaments and their completely unsuitable nature for the job at hand used by the security forces there

I do,and also on the unsuitability of surplus NBC equipment being of no use to civillians in the event of an anthrax scare.
That the US Army would be thrown out out of Iraq within 12 months after deposing Saddam by gureilla action,and that the Iraquis would fight to the last man for Iraq in the face of the invasion,or words to that effect,and somthing on the ERU being highlly trained after shooting two people in a post office van robbery in Dublin.
So he was out on the ground at Beslan as well??And was clued up by Russian FSU Alpha teams and SPETNATZ on their tactics??Trouble was russia [1] hasnt the experiance yet of having news crews and media scrutiny their actions[2] they never really had seige situations to deal with under the old Soviet regime,where they could be simply hushed up or simply be blown to bits with a tank squadron.Ergo they would handle that as a military situation rather than a police situation.[3]Russia doesn't buy,up to very recently Western style LE equipment or at that time have any training or much of it from Western LE agencies on siege handling.Nor do they paticullarly want it.They have a different outlook on these things there.Somthing the good Doc should have mentioned.

. At that moment I was very positively surprised about his level of competence on such matters so I could hardly believe that the same man would be spouting such scaremongering about highly monitored and regulated possession of sporting arms in Ireland.

I'm not. considering that we all posted what we knew about him and googled him and found out about him,and the consensus was back last weeks ago was he didnt know a buttsock from a barrel .I had a look at the interview again,and far from looking like a man who is put out,he looks like a man who doesnt know how to answer the questions as he is lacking the revelant knowledge to them.

Suffice to say that his article goes a long way towards putting the record straight and the fact that it was published in a quality newspaper with his name under it, hereby assuming full responsibility for it's content, only adds to this.

After being edited,spellchecked,and all the other processes legal and otherwise an article goes thru in a newspaper,before it is sold.What exactly is he risking in responsibility???And how is he setting the record straight???All he is saying is I had a jolly nice day shooting with the good people in the Midland range.And what a fine setup it is there.And did you know Ireland has a fine shooting tradition going back to the 1800s,plus these shooting chaps are really nice people,so we should be abit nicer to them???

Folks if that is setting the record straight,and you are all happy and all forgiving just because the man who wittingly or un wittingly brands us a bunch of dangerous people who shouldnt have anything more leathl than a feather duster on our national airwaves writes an article in a IMO highbrow,liberal leftish styled newspaper,and three weeks ago we were almost going to plant him and the PT crew out on Midlands range in front of the targets..It doesnt say very much for us for our sense of ,morality steadfastness and willingness to fight our corner.It is actually very HYPROCRITICAL and two faced of us.
I would compare it to a domestic violence scene.Where we the injured party hear."Sorry darling ,didnt mean it,wont do it again,heres a bunch of garage fore court flowers and a box of Cadbury Roses for when your jaw is unwired again!"Thats what this feels like to me.:mad:

Sorry ,it's going to take a Hell of a lot more than that to sort out my feelings,than the figuative box of Roses& flowers. My answer would be "Darling ...FK you!See you in divorce court"

Grizzly 45

Remember the bullshet that went on when Willy O'Dea posed with a pistol owned by his department.

Uh Huh..and remember the big hue and cry here about it here???
As well as the hue and cry about the pic on the cover of the Irish Shooters Digest of April 2008?????
And here we have saftey infractions on the range or a posed pic, with saftey infractions and it is all right?????? a bit of a laugh actually here :eek::eek::eek: WTF????
Oh sorry..I gettit Willie O Dea and the ISD didnt write a butter us up article in the Irish Times,after screwing us on the airwaves with their media pals in a hatchet job.:mad::mad::mad::mad:

meathstevie

Grizzly, the point I'm trying to make is that it's very easy to stir a lot of emotive billocks when firearms are the issue and that it's very easy for an expert or a so called expert for all I care to jump on that bandwagon and in the meantime doing untold damage to the position of the sports shooter and hunter.

If someone, his level of expertise aside, thinks he has made that mistake and tries to row back on it I for one I'm quite happy with that.

Personally I stated the belief that Mr. Clonan's expertise lies in the field of military armaments and use of such a lot more than in the field of civilian target shooting and hunting and I still believe this to be a fact. Having said that I still believe the IT article to be a genuine attempt at trying to make ammends with the shooting community and I am very inclined to accept it as such.

thehair

meathstevie wrote: »

Grizzly, the point I'm trying to make is that it's very easy to stir a lot of emotive billocks when firearms are the issue and that it's very easy for an expert or a so called expert for all I care to jump on that bandwagon and in the meantime doing untold damage to the position of the sports shooter and hunter.

If someone, his level of expertise aside, thinks he has made that mistake and tries to row back on it I for one I'm quite happy with that.

Personally I stated the belief that Mr. Clonan's expertise lies in the field of military armaments and use of such a lot more than in the field of civilian target shooting and hunting and I still believe this to be a fact. Having said that I still believe the IT article to be a genuine attempt at trying to make ammends with the shooting community and I am very inclined to accept it as such.

+ 1 steve:cool:

Grizzly 45

meathstevie wrote: »

Grizzly, the point I'm trying to make is that it's very easy to stir a lot of emotive billocks when firearms are the issue and that it's very easy for an expert or a so called expert for all I care to jump on that bandwagon and in the meantime doing untold damage to the position of the sports shooter and hunter.

Agree 100% with you

If someone, his level of expertise aside, thinks he has made that mistake and tries to row back on it I for one I'm quite happy with that.

Fine no problem with that either...But ADMIT publicaly to it then!!The way it is now it just looks so dead suss!! Here is a man who is trained in the media ways,who was slating us a month ago,now "apologising"in the most oddest ways known to man,with a bunch of BCC complaints hanging over him as well.But it seems to me he cant admit publicly that he is wrong as it would be detrimental to his career.

Personally I stated the belief that Mr. Clonan's expertise lies in the field of military armaments and use of such a lot more than in the field of civilian target shooting and hunting and I still believe this to be a fact.

Agree 100% too

Having said that I still believe the IT article to be a genuine attempt at trying to make ammends with the shooting community and I am very inclined to accept it as such]

WHY doesn't he just say that then??He has had over three weeks to defend his position either here in Boards,in response to any of Sparks letters in the print media or wherever?It's not as if he is isolated in Siberia,and even there one will have access nowadays to some form of mod comms?I'll accept it possibly too if I have some explanations from him as to why the things he said,and he MUST have known they could be used out of context,why did he say them then if he is such a fan of pistols,and he is now as well a mere civillian,then to say he loves pistol shooting in his IT article makes no sense at all.So is he now saying that only Ex mil types are only qualified to shoot pistol?The whole thing makes no sense.If he felt hard done by RTE in this segment,wouldnt you think he would say sod off to them as well publicly??And lodge a complaint with the BCC as well,for being mis repersented?
If I didnt belive in them I would swear there was a conspiricy theory going on here.:eek:
BTW I am not picking faults with your arguement or personal opinion.I just thought you brought up some good points.

bunny shooter

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Considering that the man works as a media advisor,teaches media studies,and features regurlarly on our TV screens and radio.I cant belive that he would not know what kind of pitfalls and double talk the media could pull on such a topic,and that anything remotely sensationalist would not be aired??Go on outta tha!




And three weeks before he is predicting dire consequences of mere civillians owning such firearms on the national airwaves?? Which is it?We are safe and okay or we are nutters ready to take out a schoolyard??
Would it not be better to say."say listen about that PT programme,a lot of what I said was edited and taken out of context,and I am sorry if ti looked like I implied that the Irish gunowner is a dangerous person.


Doesnt get them off the hook though.By admitting that and passinjg the hot spud to the Doc,all he has to do is state that he was quoted out of context and the questions were such and such.



I do,and also on the unsuitability of surplus NBC equipment being of no use to civillians in the event of an anthrax scare.
That the US Army would be thrown out out of Iraq within 12 months after deposing Saddam by gureilla action,and that the Iraquis would fight to the last man for Iraq in the face of the invasion,or words to that effect,and somthing on the ERU being highlly trained after shooting two people in a post office van robbery in Dublin.
So he was out on the ground at Beslan as well??And was clued up by Russian FSU Alpha teams and SPETNATZ on their tactics??Trouble was russia [1] hasnt the experiance yet of having news crews and media scrutiny their actions[2] they never really had seige situations to deal with under the old Soviet regime,where they could be simply hushed up or simply be blown to bits with a tank squadron.Ergo they would handle that as a military situation rather than a police situation.[3]Russia doesn't buy,up to very recently Western style LE equipment or at that time have any training or much of it from Western LE agencies on siege handling.Nor do they paticullarly want it.They have a different outlook on these things there.Somthing the good Doc should have mentioned.



I'm not. considering that we all posted what we knew about him and googled him and found out about him,and the consensus was back last weeks ago was he didnt know a buttsock from a barrel .I had a look at the interview again,and far from looking like a man who is put out,he looks like a man who doesnt know how to answer the questions as he is lacking the revelant knowledge to them.




After being edited,spellchecked,and all the other processes legal and otherwise an article goes thru in a newspaper,before it is sold.What exactly is he risking in responsibility???And how is he setting the record straight???All he is saying is I had a jolly nice day shooting with the good people in the Midland range.And what a fine setup it is there.And did you know Ireland has a fine shooting tradition going back to the 1800s,plus these shooting chaps are really nice people,so we should be abit nicer to them???

Folks if that is setting the record straight,and you are all happy and all forgiving just because the man who wittingly or un wittingly brands us a bunch of dangerous people who shouldnt have anything more leathl than a feather duster on our national airwaves writes an article in a IMO highbrow,liberal leftish styled newspaper,and three weeks ago we were almost going to plant him and the PT crew out on Midlands range in front of the targets..It doesnt say very much for us for our sense of ,morality steadfastness and willingness to fight our corner.It is actually very HYPROCRITICAL and two faced of us.
I would compare it to a domestic violence scene.Where we the injured party hear."Sorry darling ,didnt mean it,wont do it again,heres a bunch of garage fore court flowers and a box of Cadbury Roses for when your jaw is unwired again!"Thats what this feels like to me.:mad:

Sorry ,it's going to take a Hell of a lot more than that to sort out my feelings,than the figuative box of Roses& flowers. My answer would be "Darling ...FK you!See you in divorce court"

+1

I agree 100%.

Well said !

patbundy

stevie his military expertise is on killing humans ,thats not the way we want to be seen. he knows he f**ked up.its going to take more than that report to make up

bunny shooter

patbundy wrote: »

stevie his military expertise is on killing humans ,thats not the way we want to be seen. he knows he f**ked up.its going to take more than that report to make up

+1

I agree 100%

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Uh Huh..and remember the big hue and cry here about it here???
As well as the hue and cry about the pic on the cover of the Irish Shooters Digest of April 2008?????
And here we have saftey infractions on the range or a posed pic, with saftey infractions and it is all right?????? a bit of a laugh actually here :eek::eek::eek: WTF????

There were no safety infractions Grizzly, the instructor who was present on the range already posted and testified to that.

patbundy

rrpc you of all people should know,never leave a bolt in if you are handing a rifle to a civilian

rrpc

patbundy wrote: »

rrpc you of all people should know,never leave a bolt in if you are handing a rifle to a civilian

I know that you show clear when you hand a firearm to anyone. You always keep it pointed down range and you make sure that they know that too. Present on that range were two instructors, an ISSF Judge, a photographer and the journalist.

You won't get a safer situation than that.

All the safety rules were adhered to: strictly.

You'll note that the photograph was taken from the side, at a safe distance using a telephoto lens.

Bananaman

Girls,

That article was not for us - we probably comprise less of the readership of the irish times than the people who respond to the haemhorroid cushion ads.

In my eyes, whether Dr. Clonan was trying to make amends or not is irrelevant in this context.

The article presented a good balanced view of what the shooting sports are in Ireland. FOR SOMEONE WHO DID NOT KNOW THERE WAS SUCH A THING.

Joe and Jane public, who we all agree, probably had the wits frightened out of them by the Prime Time article and were left in fear of their and their childrens lives due to the number of Iraqi insurrgents loose in suburbia. Well, those that weren't watching Dustin anyway, now have a more balanced viewpoint.

Plenty of people who I work with know I shoot competitively and they commented to me on the article and said it was a good piece and a few have asked to come to the range that had not before. That is a result. (Many of them had commented on what a load of tabloid toss the Prime Time article was)

Regardless of the lead up this article, the pressures that may or may not have been brought to bear, the wounds that needed healing etc. I think we have to take an objective look at it.

Full page, Positive article on the shooting sports, no allgations of association with criminals, no allegations of the downfall of society. Highlighting the primary control of the Gardai over the licensing of fireamrs, highlighting of the fact that sports shooters are 100% vetted by the Gardai as being people of good charachter, discussing the FCP, highlighting of the fact that there are very stringent security requirements on all shooters and last but not least highlighting that we have world class competitors in these fields.

I don't care what came before - on it's own merits - this was a VERY good piece. I only hope we have more like it.

B'Man

rrpc

Bananaman wrote: »

Plenty of people who I work with know I shoot competitively and they commented to me on the article and said it was a good piece and a few have asked to come to the range that had not before. That is a result.

Funny you should say that because we got a similar result from an article in the Wicklow News some time ago where a chap saw the article, got in contact and joined the club.

That alone was worth it in my view. There are probably hundreds of people out there who would like to try shooting as a sport, but don't know where to start.

Bananaman

there are probably hundreds of people out there who would like to try shooting as a sport

And far more who did not even know there was a sport to try.

B'Man

IRLConor

Bananaman wrote: »

And far more who did not even know there was a sport to try.

Indeed, only last night I had a conversation roughly like this:

Him: What did you get up to last weekend
Me: I was shooting both days, clay pigeon on the Saturday and target shooting with a rifle on the Sunday.
Him: Really?! Where can I go and do that? I'd love to give it a try.

Cue exchanging of contact details so I can give him a list of places to go.

On Thursday, I bumped into a bunch of guys from my old school who were out collecting for charity. I was wearing DURC branded clothing and one of them asked about shooting in Trinity. If any of them end up in TCD I reckon that they'll turn up to DURC and give it a try.

There are loads of people who are curious about trying shooting but don't know where to start. The end of the Irish Times article points people towards some of the shooting organisation websites and encourages people to check them out. If that only brings one new member to one club then it has been a positive thing for the sport.

In the wider scheme of things the article was important too. It's very easy to write a controversial piece about shooting and gun ownership in Ireland and I would guess that such an article sells better than the positive, measured article we saw. If we can encourage reasoned discussion on gun ownership in Ireland then maybe we can avoid some of the worst "religious" arguments that happen in other countries. It's those kinds of bitter arguments that lead to overly strict or poorly thought out firearms laws.

les45

When have we received a article that outlines all that is good and decent about our sport in one of the most highly respected newspapers in Europe !!! Never .

Whatever has happened in the past will be sorted our with the BCC . lets build from this , update our websites , run more matches and go forward . We all know that the PT feature was pathetic but there is a facility to have this resolved and I have no doubt that we will be vindicated .

So to the folks that organised , took time off work , allowed the use of the range ,thank you .

Possibly the most important article ever written in a mainstream newspaper since the coverage of the the great rifle matches at the turn of the 20th Century

John:D:D:D