RTE suggests treaty is in trouble...

bill_ashmount

Call_me_al wrote: »

i know you are being sarcastic but tbh too fecking right, voting is a privilege and should be treated as such. and a certain level of intelligence should be required to vote.

EDIT: Think i answered your question Darragh

Go away and fu*k off. I suppose you'll be the person to decide who is intelligent enough to vote??

Those who voted No are just as intelligent as those who voted Yes

lisbon_lions

Call_me_al wrote: »

i know you are being sarcastic but tbh too fecking right, voting is a privilege and should be treated as such. and a certain level of intelligence should be required to vote.

Perhaps throw in a certain colour of skin and maybe a gender there while your at it, eh?

mcaul

suimhneas wrote: »

Whats going to happen if the no vote wins, which i sure as hell hope it does! whats is it that sinn fein and libertas have to take responsibality for? is the sky about to fall?

Euro has already fallen 1% in the past 30 minutes as a direct result of this. It brings instability and uncertainty to the European market. It will delay foreign investment and probaly cost jobs - Just at a time we don't need it.

Lies by SF & Libertas have caused this. - but they will not take responsibilty.

In future, the referendum commission should vet all posters & advertising to ensure that the fairly reflect what people are voting on - this would prevent the trash that was put about the place.

- Any new deal will not in anyway be more favourable.

Stabshauptmann

If you want to force people to vote then there has to be a none of the above option; people have the right to abstain (in fact people should if they dont know what they're voting for)

Pal

What Vision? wrote: »

I'd be interested to find out where Libertas get their funding!!!!
.

american military interest .

IRLConor

Jip wrote: »

And again you're making the assumption that everyone who voted 'No' done so because they're gullible and believed in the lies.

Not necessarily, but given the amount of crap spread by both sides perhaps some of it stuck.

You only have to look through this forum and see all of the posts made by people saying things like:

• Lisbon makes us lose our commissioner!
• We're getting our influence in the council halved!
• We're losing our constitutional neutrality! (:rolleyes:)
• It's going to force us to raise our tax rates.

all of which are factually, provably untrue and have been repeatedly and thoroughly debunked here and elsewhere. And they're just the arguments that are based on the treaty! There were loads of people voting yes "because we got loads of money from the EU" or voting no "because the EU [sic] didn't give other countries the vote" too.

An impartial Referendum Commission with the power to fine the bejaysus out of anyone publishing lies about the matter being voted on would be a very good thing IMHO.

Darragh29

Call_me_al wrote: »

a learning disability does not reflect intelligence, my 18 year old brother is dyslexic and still managed to make an informed opinion by researching up on the treaty.

and if a mentally disabled person cant grasp the concept of what they are voting on then no of course they shouldnt be allowed to vote on it. may seem a bit extreme but you may as well close your eyes and see what you mark.

is that not why people under the age of 18 cant vote because we dont "trust" them to make an informed responsible decision?

No, but a learning disability can obviously affect reasoning and logical decision making.

Chardee MacDennis

bill_ashmount wrote: »

Go away and fu*k off. I suppose you'll be the person to decide who is intelligent enough to vote??

Those who voted No are just as intelligent as those who voted Yes

well if you read what i said you wouldnt jump to such conclusions. whatever way people want to vote is up to them but they should have a reason, if they dont understand the treaty well then they can abstain or spoil their vote. but voting no because you dont understand is not a good use of your vote.

kenco

Writing was on the wall when the turnout figures were estimated last night.

The Yes side needed a higher turnout as it looked all along that the No side would get their vote out regardless.

Interesting to see what happens now

justfortherecor

Looks like a depressing day unfolding.

What Vision?

Kaptain Redeye wrote: »

If you want to force people to vote then there has to be a none of the above option; people have the right to abstain (in fact people should if they dont know what they're voting for)

I'm just thinking out loud. buy if you can't decide either way then spoil your vote. Atleast that would be a good protest. Imagine if 25% of the votes were spoiled!!! then there would be questions asked.

Chardee MacDennis

lisbon_lions wrote: »

Perhaps throw in a certain colour of skin and maybe a gender there while your at it, eh?

dont be stupid, thats racism and sexism. but i suppose you have no problem with the ageism that doesnt allow people under 18 to vote then?

i am not saying base the right to vote on colour, gender, age, beliefs, religion, but on intellect.

suimhneas

Seamus when did you become a psychic? im not libertas and not sinn fein, and i think ye are going totally overboard. dont believe all the government tells you or have you not learnt that yet. As for Mr "no a in responsibility" get a flippin life. Really

j2dab

Here we go folks.............Get ready for the recession!!

Indie18

Weathercheck wrote: »

A terrible day for Ireland unfolding.

A terrorist organisation and an American Libertas Organisation (which obviously care oh so much for us Irish) look like defeating all the parties we trust and have voted for all our lives.

It looks a resounding No at this stage.

do really actually trust any of the parties in this politically backwards country cause if i was being honest when the general elections were running i would have felt dirthy no matter who i voted for. as for this lisbon treaty not much will change one way or the other. so i could care less which way it goes. doesn't mean i wouldn't go out and vote i think it's important to use your vote.

conceited

if they dont understand the treaty well then they can abstain or spoil their vote. but voting no because you dont understand is not a good use of your vote. __________________

If they explained the thing in the first place and they couldn't even do that,what does that make them then?Idiots?

Stabshauptmann

But spoiling a vote does nothing. If there is a proper "Non of the above" option and it wins, then you would have to re run the election or referendum

DOCARCH

What Vision? wrote: »

I'd be interested to find out where Libertas get their funding!!!!

I'd say FF were not asking that when Ganley was donating to them!

oscarBravo

Darragh29 wrote: »

Nope, voting is a right, not a privilage. That's where the government got it wrong here, people can vote a particular way for any reason or indeed for no reason at all, there is no responsibility either explicit or implied, that is required of a voter when they vote.

Please read everything FionnMatthew has posted in this forum, and come back to me.

As for people being entitled to vote for any reason whatsoever: I find that view utterly irreconcilable with the wailing and gnashing of teeth that will ensue if and when this treaty is put to a vote again.

"Wah! I voted for stupid reasons, and I demand that you respect that!"

Stabshauptmann

conceited wrote: »

If they explained the thing in the first place and they couldn't even do that,what does that make them then?Idiots?

the information was there.

Cadet?

j2dab wrote: »

Here we go folks.............Get ready for the recession!!

Indeed. I am quite depressed. First time I've ever felt strongly about any Irish political issue. Next few years have just got bleaker.

Chardee MacDennis

conceited wrote: »

If they explained the thing in the first place and they couldn't even do that,what does that make them then?Idiots?

do they have to hold your hand in the polling booth too? people have the internet and public libraries etc find out for yourself. when you're picking your holiday you dont let someone else decide the dates and destinations do you? and this is far more important.

Pal

Call_me_al wrote: »

getting a bad feeling that the no vote has it. fools....

a lot of fools in this country. much more than I ever imagined.

What Vision?

IRLConor wrote: »

Not necessarily, but given the amount of crap spread by both sides perhaps some of it stuck.

You only have to look through this forum and see all of the posts made by people saying things like:

• Lisbon makes us lose our commissioner!
• We're getting our influence in the council halved!
• We're losing our constitutional neutrality! (:rolleyes:)
• It's going to force us to raise our tax rates.

all of which are factually, provably untrue and have been repeatedly and thoroughly debunked here and elsewhere. And they're just the arguments that are based on the treaty! There were loads of people voting yes "because we got loads of money from the EU" or voting no "because the EU [sic] didn't give other countries the vote" too.

An impartial Referendum Commission with the power to fine the bejaysus out of anyone publishing lies about the matter being voted on would be a very good thing IMHO.

Miss Information
Comissioner is an overrated position. They are not there for ireland. they are supposed to be neutral. What jobs do you give then all. they have to be made up. Even governments don't have that many departments

Neutrality is gaurenteed.

We have a veto on tax.

in what way is our "influence being "halved"

Darragh29

justfortherecor wrote: »

Looks like a depressing day unfolding.

I have a picture in my head of the scene out of Fr. Ted where Bishop Brennan tells Ted & Dougal to organise a protest against a firm in the local cinema that the Vatican has banned, but instead of people boycotting it, they turn up to watch it! The reverse has happened here, I'd say the EU top brass will be ending Biffo to some far flung corner of South America where they have been knocking the ****e outa each other since 1807!

Raskolnikov

j2dab wrote: »

Here we go folks.............Get ready for the recession!!

You've got to be kidding, right?

All a No vote means is that is that the status quo continues. There's absolutely no reason to suggest that this will cause a recession (although some would say due to other factors, we're in one already).

El Stuntman

j2dab wrote: »

Here we go folks.............Get ready for the recession!!

we're already there

johnnyq

Call_me_al wrote: »

sure the democratic process is a joke anyway, even if the no votes "wins" only 25% of the country's eligible voters would have made the decision, of which i would say 10% voted no because they didnt "understand" the treaty. and they my friend are the fools..

You are condemning people on your own estimate (=opinion).
Doesn't say much for you.

conceited

Kaptain Redeye

Don't talk ****e.

Pal

Weathercheck wrote: »

A terrible day for Ireland unfolding.

A terrorist organisation and an American Libertas Organisation

It looks a resounding No at this stage.

A terrorist organisation and an American Libertas Organisation fooled our people and they bought it.

IRLConor

What Vision? wrote: »

Miss Information
Comissioner is an overrated position. They are not there for ireland. they are supposed to be neutral. What jobs do you give then all. they have to be made up. Even governments don't have that many departments

Neutrality is gaurenteed.

We have a veto on tax.

in what way is our "influence being "halved"

Precisely. I was pointing out those things as blatant lies which were repeatedly put forward.

Biro

Kaptain Redeye wrote: »

TBH if I was running the country there'd be severe penalties for people deliberatly peddling lies in the run up to a referendum or election

You'd have everyone in jail if that's the case!

bill_ashmount

Call_me_al wrote: »

well if you read what i said you wouldnt jump to such conclusions. whatever way people want to vote is up to them but they should have a reason, if they dont understand the treaty well then they can abstain or spoil their vote. but voting no because you dont understand is not a good use of your vote.

I read your entire one line post in which you decided that the NO voters were fools.

Call_me_al wrote: »

getting a bad feeling that the no vote has it. fools....

Anyway, I'm done with you now, going away to celebrate the result...:D

Pal

Raskolnikov wrote: »

You've got to be kidding, right?

All a No vote means is that is that the status quo continues. There's absolutely no reason to suggest that this will cause a recession (although some would say due to other factors, we're in one already).

wake up
All a No vote means is that is that the people of Ireland bought the lies.
its hard to fathom this.
our country could be seriously fcukked

ShooterSF

mcaul wrote: »

In future, the referendum commission should vet all posters & advertising to ensure that the fairly reflect what people are voting on - this would prevent the trash that was put about the place.

The same "impartial" commission that put a rosy tint on everything. Again ,sick of repeating this, "We will keep some of our vetoes" while not finishing an impartial sentence "and loose others" is tinting the points.

Now on the other hand an outright ban on posters I'd support as not one of them stated anything factual about the treaty. They all took one of 3 approaches, orders to vote one way or another without any reason, vague statements like It'll cost you or of be at the heart of it (what the ****?) or outright lies. But a commission that proved itself partial can not be trusted with vetting posters without risking the ruin of free debate.

Stabshauptmann

Raskolnikov wrote: »

You've got to be kidding, right?

All a No vote means is that is that the status quo continues. There's absolutely no reason to suggest that this will cause a recession (although some would say due to other factors, we're in one already).

The status quo wont continue. There have been agreements already for numerous changes, these changes must be detailed and formalised.

We will lose our commissioner (one of the things no votes think they have stopped).
The Treaty actually gave a lot of protection for irish interests

Chardee MacDennis

johnnyq wrote: »

You are condemning people on your own estimate (=opinion).
Doesn't say much for you.

i spoke to no one over the last week that could tell why they were voting no, except for replying "i dont know enough about it to make a deicion so i am voting no"

seamus

suimhneas wrote: »

Seamus when did you become a psychic?

What do you mean? We *are* going to lose our Commissioner, regardless of how this vote turns out. I'll be on the edge of my seat to see how Libertas defends that one.

bookiebasher

hey Daragh29 ..who is biffo..???

cornbb

Raskolnikov wrote: »

You've got to be kidding, right?

All a No vote means is that is that the status quo continues. There's absolutely no reason to suggest that this will cause a recession (although some would say due to other factors, we're in one already).

The status quo does not continue. The EU has been meandering on its way for years, under the hope that the reform treaty everyone has worked on would come to pass. If it is not passed, there will be a period of uncertainty and the progress the EU needs to make will be slowed down for years. Every major international news organisations, even those not reknowned for hyperbole or scaremongering, have matter-of-factly said that a No result will result in a crisis for Europe.

Did you really think a No vote would have no consequences?

Darragh29

I think the government has for many years, failed to keep people educated with regard to the different institutions of the EU and how they affect us. For example, I know in Ireland we have two houses (Dail & Senead), that passes legislation. In the EU, there is an EU commission, an EU council, a Council of Ministers, ECJ this and EU that, I don't know how these organisations work with regard to each other or how they affect me as a citizen. The whole thing looks to me like one big gravy train that is fond of dictating what we should do, particularly with regard to voting. You can't blame the people for not understanding something, either in a treaty form or in terms of what exactly the EU is, which many people simply do not know. To quote Mr. Miagoe of Karate Kid, "there is no such thing as bad student, only bad teacher"...

Stabshauptmann

conceited wrote: »

Don't talk ****e.

you dont think there was enough information to make an informed decision.

Lets see there was the referendum commission, prime time, newspapers, the info booklets sent to every home and oh yes, free and easy access to the Treaty itself.

But no, lets vote based on posters of monkeys

johnnyq

mcaul wrote: »

Euro has already fallen 1% in the past 30 minutes as a direct result of this.

Absolute crap. You have no evidence to support this AT ALL.

The euro has fallen before in the past without a speculative lisbon no vote.

Lies by SF & Libertas have caused this. - but they will not take responsibilty.

So you obviously think there was no good reason to reject this....

Any new deal will not in anyway be more favourable.

Do you expect people to vote yes to a worse deal?

Pal

Cowen must go (thats a joke. don't go getting uposet)

arybvtcw0eolkf

Pal wrote: »

wake up
All a No vote means is that is that the people of Ireland bought the lies.
its hard to fathom this.
our country could be seriously fcukked

I see you bought into the scare tactics.

IRLConor

ShooterSF wrote: »

The same "impartial" commission that put a rosy tint on everything. Again ,sick of repeating this, "We will keep some of our vetoes" while not finishing an impartial sentence "and loose others" is tinting the points.

Now on the other hand an outright ban on posters I'd support as not one of them stated anything factual about the treaty. They all took one of 3 approaches, orders to vote one way or another without any reason, vague statements like It'll cost you or of be at the heart of it (what the ****?) or outright lies. But a commission that proved itself partial can not be trusted with vetting posters without risking the ruin of free debate.

I don't buy your "partial Referendum Commission" shtick for one minute.

In fact, the statement you keep quoting does not appear anywhere on their website! (At least not anywhere I could find)

Kaptain Redeye

Kaptain Redeye wrote: »

The status quo wont continue. There have been agreements already for numerous changes, these changes must be detailed and formalised.

We will lose our commissioner (one of the things no votes think they have stopped).
The Treaty actually gave a lot of protection for irish interests

I agree with that.
Though a yes voter for that exact reason,the cat is among the pidgeons now and I am excited at the prospect of what happens next.

Theres a separate thread for collating the results and tallys by the way everyone

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055313273

What Vision?

seamus wrote: »

What do you mean? We *are* going to lose our Commissioner, regardless of how this vote turns out. I'll be on the edge of my seat to see how Libertas defends that one.

That's an interesting point.

Cos the number is Limited to 27 by the Nice Treaty, so if another country joins, what then. Are they not entitled to one? Or does someone have to go without every year.

lisbon_lions

Call_me_al wrote: »

dont be stupid, thats racism and sexism. but i suppose you have no problem with the ageism that doesnt allow people under 18 to vote then?

i am not saying base the right to vote on colour, gender, age, beliefs, religion, but on intellect.

so lets set up IQ booths at polling stations to ascertain who can vote? come on, ffs. With statments like that you wouldnt make the grade.

Biro

Cadet? wrote: »

Indeed. I am quite depressed. First time I've ever felt strongly about any Irish political issue. Next few years have just got bleaker.

Sensationalist drivel.