Lisbon I is over, roll on Lisbon II...

seamus

gurramok wrote: »

Of course they had hundreds of reasons whether valid or not. The yes side didn't convince and intelligent people voted either way based on this, its time to accept the way people voted.

And if it comes out as a "No", the constitution won't be changed. That's acceptance.

Putting it up for vote again, with changes, is not disregarding people's wishes. As I said in another thread, if the country really thinks it's a bad idea then we can continue defeating it, then vote out the idiots who keep putting it up for vote.

colly10

gurramok wrote: »

Of course they had hundreds of reasons whether valid or not. The yes side didn't convince and intelligent people voted either way based on this, its time to accept the way people voted.

+1 - I'm getting sick to death of listening to this crap, if your on the yes side ye it's a pity that not everyone agrees with you, get over it ffs.

Zube

biko wrote: »

Yes voters, how about you sit down and let us grown ups handle this?

[grabs popcorn]

Should be good for a laugh. Declan "businessman" Ganley for pope!

gurramok

seamus wrote: »

And if it comes out as a "No", the constitution won't be changed. That's acceptance.

Putting it up for vote again, with changes, is not disregarding people's wishes. As I said in another thread, if the country really thinks it's a bad idea then we can continue defeating it, then vote out the idiots who keep putting it up for vote.

Sadly it dont work like that. People vote in general elections based on their pocket, not on a European issue which is way down their list.

If there is a Lisbon II with changes and put again in a referenda, so be it.

I'd respect the result and so should anyone who cares about democracy where you have to convince voters to sway your way and not brand them as stupid(not you, other yessers are)

djpbarry

nhughes100 wrote: »

All member states to increase spending on their military capabilities...

This is not true and has been debunked over and over again.

Kaptain Redeye wrote: »

The majority of ppl are saying they didnt understand the treaty, so lets educate them

There's only so much that can be done. People have to take some responsibility and educate themselves - with the wealth of information available (on the internet in particular), there really is no excuse.

Dinner

gurramok wrote: »

Tripe or not, do you not realise what your saying?

In other words, your saying the electorate who are over 18 are of very low intelligence to vote no, thats deeply insulting to hundreds of thousands of adults.
If it turns out to be a Yes vote, will your respect that unlike the No vote?

I'm not saying that at all. I'm simply saying that the majority (but not all) of No voters that I've come across both on boards and off have had questionable reasons to do so. Some no voters have based their vote on the truth, while most others I've encountered have based it on personal feelings or campaign posters and not on the facts.

Judging by the amount of people voting no because "I don't want higher taxes" it seems that so many people have bought into the poster campaign and are basing their decisions on that and other mistruths. I don't put this down to lack of intelligence, I think it's more to do with convenience. It's a lot easier to read all the posters than to sit down to an evening with the referendum commision. It's also to do with a far from perfect Yes campaign which hasn't made itself entirely clear on the treaty, but thats a very difficult thing to do. It's easier to put "Keep your taxes low, vote no" on a poster than "Lisbon is a very complex treaty which will help to streamline the EU into a more effective machine". Add to this the people who went against the treaty because FF supported it it's no surprise that it looks to be defeated.


By the way, I'm under no illusion that this doesn't happen on the other side too. I'm sure some people voted yes because mammy told them to and thats just as bad as the no side, but I doubt it happened on as large a scale.

colly10

Arabel wrote: »

Judging by the amount of people voting no because "I don't want higher taxes" .

I would be surprised if many of the no side voted based on this

Arabel wrote: »

it seems that so many people have bought into the poster campaign and are basing their decisions on that and other mistruths.

Some of the yes side also voted yes based on the partys which voted yes

Arabel wrote: »

It's a lot easier to read all the posters than to sit down to an evening with the referendum commision. .

I never believed that this commission was completly impartial, i've stated this a few times and don't really want to get into it again, also there failure to answer some questions is a little worrying, if they can't answer some direct questions on the treaty then it's hard to trust them to find potential loopholes let alone report them

Arabel wrote: »

Add to this the people who went against the treaty because FF supported it it's no surprise that it looks to be defeated.

Or the people who voted yes because Sinn Fein/Libertas cannot be trusted?

Dinner

colly10 wrote: »

Or the people who voted yes because Sinn Fein/Libertas cannot be trusted?

I've already acknowledged that some people voted yes because of family lines or a dislike of SF and think that those reasons are as rediculous as the reasons that some people had for voting no, but in my experience there have been more people voting no for the wrong reasons than yes.

Inquitus

There will be a Lisbon 2 and it will be passed, mark my words, it's Nice all over again

cornbb

Inquitus wrote: »

There will be a Lisbon 2 and it will be passed, mark my words, it's Nice all over again

A massive font doesn't make you correct. Read my earlier post again (#4)

jaqian

If the Treaty is defeated the Govt have to take a lot of the blame for how they handled it. There should have been a point for point analysis on the treaty clearly defining what the Treaty meant for us and then had serious debate on these points instead of all the hearsay throw around by both the Yes and No camps.

There also should have been better reporting on what we have gained from Europe as there seems to be great confusion over "what has Europe ever done for us" mentality.

And why-oh-why did they tack on getting rid of the right to hold a referendum as regards future Treaties? That should have been kept separate so as not to confuse people.

Dinner

Inquitus wrote: »

There will be a Lisbon 2 and it will be passed, mark my words, it's Nice all over again

You mean we can renegotiate and modify some aspects of the treaty and put the reformed treaty to the people again?

You're right, that is nice.

VoidStarNull

In Nice II, the treaty itself was left unchanged but the government added side conditions to the constitutional changes to address the neutrality concern. That meant that treaty negotiations did not have to begin again.

In the case of Lisbon, it's pretty hard to identify anything the Irish government can do by itself to satisfy people's concerns. Neutrality, abortion, etc have already been done to death. Maybe a constitutional amendment to guarantee low corporation tax? Would be daft, and wouldn't satisfy many people anyway. Perhaps an amendment to guarantee worker's rights? The question of whether we want to be more socialist would appear to be an issue for the Dail, not the constitution.

That leaves changing the treaty itself, which would require new negotiations - the outcome of which are not under our control alone. That may be what people want, but it's not a Nice II scenario.

Our man in Havana

Inquitus wrote: »

There will be a Lisbon 2 and it will be passed, mark my words, it's Nice all over again

I concur.

DishonestPikey

Inquitus wrote: »

There will be a Lisbon 2 and it will be passed, mark my words, it's Nice all over again

Yeah only if they use big fonts and give a free lolly pop to everyone who votes. Maybe they should redo it as an Ann and Barry picture story?

On a more serious note, I think it will be put back to us with concessions and vetos. The British did not accept the treaty as is and if you look back they never do. They take what they want and reject what they don't want. This is the problem with having a referendum. you don't get to tick a box for the parts you like and dislike. Its take it all or leave it.

mumhaabu

Ireland today has fired a warning shot over the European bureaucracy of red tape and corruption. I voted NO yesterday, I voted no because the EU is not a free market and until the day that I can import a Car into Ireland without VRT free I will NO to the EU forever.

The United Kingdom will elect the Conservative party in a years time and I firmly believe the time will then be right for Ireland & the UK to withdraw from the European Union and negotiate a free trade deal with the United States & NAFTA. The EU are currently trying this with the Transatlantic Economic Council & Ireland and the United Kingdom could create a Transatlantic Free Trade Area, this could then be advanced towards a common market and free movement of people between the British Isles and the USA and Canada.

Ireland and the UK have more in common with the USA than Europe and the the fact that we speak English and both our countries share massive ancestry in North America. Our future lies westward and we must move closer to Boston than Berlin.

DishonestPikey

mumhaabu wrote: »

Ireland today has fired a warning shot over the European bureaucracy of red tape and corruption. I voted NO yesterday, I voted no because the EU is not a free market and until the day that I can import a Car into Ireland without VRT free I will NO to the EU forever.

The United Kingdom will elect the Conservative party in a years time and I firmly believe the time will then be right for Ireland & the UK to withdraw from the European Union and negotiate a free trade deal with the United States & NAFTA. The EU are currently trying this with the Transatlantic Economic Council & Ireland and the United Kingdom could create a Transatlantic Free Trade Area, this could then be advanced towards a common market and free movement of people between the British Isles and the USA and Canada.

Ireland and the UK have more in common with the USA than Europe and the the fact that we speak English and both our countries share massive ancestry in North America. Our future lies westward and we must move closer to Boston than Berlin.

And what exactly do we have to offer the US if we were to severe links with the EU? Potatoes?

RE*AC*TOR

I'm surprised and pleased that the vote seems to be for no.

Delighted in fact. If the government put it up for vote again, I hope people will have learned their lesson from Nice.


Lot of sour auld heads posting here.

molloyjh

mumhaabu wrote: »

Ireland today has fired a warning shot over the European bureaucracy of red tape and corruption. I voted NO yesterday, I voted no because the EU is not a free market and until the day that I can import a Car into Ireland without VRT free I will NO to the EU forever.

The United Kingdom will elect the Conservative party in a years time and I firmly believe the time will then be right for Ireland & the UK to withdraw from the European Union and negotiate a free trade deal with the United States & NAFTA. The EU are currently trying this with the Transatlantic Economic Council & Ireland and the United Kingdom could create a Transatlantic Free Trade Area, this could then be advanced towards a common market and free movement of people between the British Isles and the USA and Canada.

Ireland and the UK have more in common with the USA than Europe and the the fact that we speak English and both our countries share massive ancestry in North America. Our future lies westward and we must move closer to Boston than Berlin.

If we pull out of the EU then we will lose a lot of, if not all of, our foreign investment. Most foreign companies come here due to our low corporation tax and our free trade agreement with the EU. I we lose one we immediately become far moe unattractive to foreign companies, and in the current economic times thats a very bad news story!

vandermeyde

mumhaabu wrote: »

Ireland today has fired a warning shot over the European bureaucracy of red tape and corruption. I voted NO yesterday, I voted no because the EU is not a free market and until the day that I can import a Car into Ireland without VRT free I will NO to the EU forever.

You do realise that VRT is imposed by the Irish Government and it's the EU which has ruled that this is an unfair and unjust tax which goes against the ethos of EU free market principles? It'll be scrapped after we've had our knuckles rapped from Brussels but will morph into some kind of carbon based import tax in replacement..

molloyjh

vandermeyde wrote: »

You do realise that VRT is imposed by the Irish Government and it's the EU which has ruled that this is an unfair and unjust tax which goes against the ethos of EU free market principles? It'll be scrapped after we've had our knuckles rapped from Brussels but will morph into some kind of carbon based import tax in replacement..

My understanding of VRT is that it is (in legal terms) a charge on all cars regardless of where they were manufactured. Therefore if a car was made here and sold here it would be subject to VRT. Therefore the way in which the law is phrased means that it cannot be deemed to be anti-competitive as it makes no distinction on imports or domestically made products. The obvious thing being that we don't manufacture cars here and realistically speaking its a replacement for the import duty. Its a bit of a loop-hole/work-around thats legally sound but morally dodgy.

vandermeyde

molloyjh wrote: »

My understanding of VRT is that it is (in legal terms) a charge on all cars regardless of where they were manufactured. Therefore if a car was made here and sold here it would be subject to VRT. Therefore the way in which the law is phrased means that it cannot be deemed to be anti-competitive as it makes no distinction on imports or domestically made products. The obvious thing being that we don't manufacture cars here and realistically speaking its a replacement for the import duty. Its a bit of a loop-hole/work-around thats legally sound but morally dodgy.

Yep, you're right there. Whilst not technically illegal, It does go against the ethos of the EU tho so they aint happy about it. Particularly as its applicable to cars which may have been already registered elsewhere in the EU.

Anyway, going a bit off-topic here so I'll leave it at that

ircoha

mumhaabu wrote: »

Ireland and the UK have more in common with the USA than Europe and the the fact that we speak English and both our countries share massive ancestry in North America. Our future lies westward and we must move closer to Boston than Berlin.

Lets get a bit of perspective here:
using the phrase both our countries for Ireland and the UK is an insult to the Scots and Welsh.

the UK is not a country: where is your sense of history?

Our man in Havana

the UK is not a country: where is your sense of history?

Yes it is. It is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. A sovereign nation.

thecaptain

Inquitus wrote: »

There will be a Lisbon 2 and it will be passed, mark my words, it's Nice all over again

Agreed. Although they will avoid a vote the next time. This pack of scum will not let this stop them. Time for the people to make further stands.

VoidStarNull

mumhaabu wrote: »

Ireland and the UK have more in common with the USA than Europe and the the fact that we speak English and both our countries share massive ancestry in North America. Our future lies westward and we must move closer to Boston than Berlin.

We also drink tea and read the Sun Newspaper.

Hands off our culture, Frenchies! We are British.

molloyjh

thecaptain wrote: »

Agreed. Although they will avoid a vote the next time. This pack of scum will not let this stop them. Time for the people to make further stands.

What like they did in the GE last year? Or this referendum where 1/2 the country didn't bother their @rse. The Irish electorate are incapable of making a stand as a whole. Of the people that did bother to turn up yesterday how many (on either side) really had any idea what they were voting for? So while 1/2 weren't bothered how many more were bothered but ignorant on top of that? I'd hate to see a % figure on the number of people who genuinly knew what the Treaty was about.

Ronan|Raven

mumhaabu wrote: »

Ireland today has fired a warning shot over the European bureaucracy of red tape and corruption. I voted NO yesterday, I voted no because the EU is not a free market and until the day that I can import a Car into Ireland without VRT free I will NO to the EU forever.

The United Kingdom will elect the Conservative party in a years time and I firmly believe the time will then be right for Ireland & the UK to withdraw from the European Union and negotiate a free trade deal with the United States & NAFTA. The EU are currently trying this with the Transatlantic Economic Council & Ireland and the United Kingdom could create a Transatlantic Free Trade Area, this could then be advanced towards a common market and free movement of people between the British Isles and the USA and Canada.

Ireland and the UK have more in common with the USA than Europe and the the fact that we speak English and both our countries share massive ancestry in North America. Our future lies westward and we must move closer to Boston than Berlin.

I could have done with a laugh today thank you for providing it.

axer

Since it is being suggested that many of the EU countries are going to still go ahead with the ratification process how long shall before lisbon 2 comes?

I love our democratic system - we have another "are you sure" more than likely coming our way.

AtomicHorror

axer wrote: »

Since it is being suggested that many of the EU countries are going to still go ahead with the ratification process how long shall before lison 2 comes?

I love our democratic system - we have another "are you sure" more than likely coming our way.

It's not more than likely. It's quite uncertain if we'll get a second chance or a re-negotiation.