Lisbon I is over, roll on Lisbon II...

bauderline · 13-06-2008 4:05pm

djpbarry wrote: »

People have come out with this argument over and over and over again without (as yet) providing any evidence whatsoever that the majority of people in Britain, France or the Netherlands (or any other EU state for that matter) actually want to vote on the Lisbon Treaty. Can you please either provide some evidence to back up this claim, or else ditch it and just accept that most EU citizens are happy enough for their parliaments to ratify the treaty for them.

Have a wee a look through the 160 odd comments here, some rubbish as usual but a lot of people in the UK giving a clear indication of their thoughts on the matter !

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91211-1318932,00.html

DishonestPikey · 13-06-2008 4:07pm

SkepticOne wrote: »

No, in a democracy there is no right or wrong reasons, there is only the will of the people.

Wrong. The will of 1 million does not get to decide the will of 500 million. that is not a democracy. and I might add this sort of "democracy" would have been addressed had the treaty passed.

BobTheBeat · 13-06-2008 4:10pm

The yes campaign were continually referring to the fact that we were a 'central player' and 'highly regarded coutry' amongst the rest of europe. I think the fact they plan to continue ratification says alot about how they feel about Ireland and its citizens opinions. Very worrying.

If we are that central, why isnt it stopping the whole process right now?

Rb · 13-06-2008 4:10pm

djpbarry wrote: »

People have come out with this argument over and over and over again without (as yet) providing any evidence whatsoever that the majority of people in Britain, France or the Netherlands (or any other EU state for that matter) actually want to vote on the Lisbon Treaty. Can you please either provide some evidence to back up this claim, or else ditch it and just accept that most EU citizens are happy enough for their parliaments to ratify the treaty for them.

Might not be a majority but it's a start Click

menoscemo · 13-06-2008 4:12pm

I am not sure that all countries will now ratify the treaty. I think the UK in particualr will have a hard job pushing it through. I believe 15 countries have yet to ratify the treaty in their parliaments and many of them were waiting to see how the irish voted first.
There may yet be referendums in other countries.....

If everyone ratifies this there will be some concessions to the irish and we should have Lisbon 2 in about a years time.

Scofflaw · 13-06-2008 4:15pm

Rb wrote: »

Might not be a majority but it's a start Click

It was about a hundred people all across Europe. The pictures are here, on the organisers' site.

regards,
Scofflaw

DishonestPikey · 13-06-2008 4:16pm

bobmeaney wrote: »

The yes campaign were continually referring to the fact that we were a 'central player' and 'highly regarded coutry' amongst the rest of europe. I think the fact they plan to continue ratification says alot about how they feel about Ireland and its citizens opinions. Very worrying.

If we are that central, why isnt it stopping the whole process right now?

Its a bit late now to be getting worried.

fitzer1982 · 13-06-2008 4:20pm

bobmeaney wrote: »

The yes campaign were continually referring to the fact that we were a 'central player' and 'highly regarded coutry' amongst the rest of europe. I think the fact they plan to continue ratification says alot about how they feel about Ireland and its citizens opinions. Very worrying.

If we are that central, why isnt it stopping the whole process right now?

Because the No vote just came through today! Hardly expect everything to collaps straight away!

Mr.Nice Guy · 13-06-2008 4:24pm

djpbarry wrote: »

People have come out with this argument over and over and over again without (as yet) providing any evidence whatsoever that the majority of people in Britain, France or the Netherlands (or any other EU state for that matter) actually want to vote on the Lisbon Treaty. Can you please either provide some evidence to back up this claim, or else ditch it and just accept that most EU citizens are happy enough for their parliaments to ratify the treaty for them.

You want me to provide you evidence that the Dutch and French electorate - who rejected the document which we just rejected - were not happy with being denied a vote?

Are you for real man?

BobTheBeat · 13-06-2008 4:27pm

fitze69 wrote: »

Because the No vote just came through today! Hardly expect everything to collaps straight away!

Figure of speach... just concerned with the sentiment among the rest that "regardless we will carry on".

kerry4sam · 13-06-2008 4:28pm

Their is NO LISBON 2 ... that was it! :mad: That was Irelands chance to secure a stable reliable future

Scofflaw · 13-06-2008 4:29pm

bobmeaney wrote:

The yes campaign were continually referring to the fact that we were a 'central player' and 'highly regarded coutry' amongst the rest of europe. I think the fact they plan to continue ratification says alot about how they feel about Ireland and its citizens opinions. Very worrying.

If we are that central, why isnt it stopping the whole process right now?

One can be central to Europe because you're a vital part of the power-balance of Europe - and one can be central to Europe because you've cleverly insinuated yourself into the corridors of power by being great guys, always on-side, etc, despite being a complete non-entity.

We are about to find out which one we are, and I'm afraid it's going to be a bit of a shock for some people.

cordially,
Scofflaw

lisbon_lions · 13-06-2008 4:32pm

Barosso has just been on the box. He basically said that the remaining countries should continue to ratify the treaty and Brian it is over to you. We wait to hear what you do next?

nhughes100 · 13-06-2008 4:34pm

djpbarry wrote: »

This is not true and has been debunked over and over again.
quote]

It's in the treaty - Read it. It was debated on Prime time so if you still think it's not true make sure to tell RTE's researchers and the people who debated it live on national television.

In any case I don't see what all the yes voters are in such a panic over, you'll get a second chance unlike if a no vote had been carried.

Read the comments page on Sky News, people from all over Europe thanking us for the No vote, lets have a referedum in every country and we'll see how united this so called union is.

SkepticOne · 13-06-2008 4:36pm

lisbon_lions wrote: »

Barosso has just been on the box. He basically said that the remaining countries should continue to ratify the treaty and Brian it is over to you. We wait to hear what you do next?

Yes although I expect Cowan's explanation as to why the people are wrong will be done behind closed doors.

kerry4sam · 13-06-2008 4:37pm

thecaptain wrote: »

Agreed. Although they will avoid a vote the next time. This pack of scum will not let this stop them. Time for the people to make further stands.

They can't avoid a vote the next time! It's in our constitution that any changes need to be ratified by vote by the people of Ireland ...

Andystoran · 13-06-2008 4:40pm

Im sick as a small hospital here:(

I cant believe its a no.

I wonder what the first wrap on the knuckles will be?:rolleyes:

menoscemo · 13-06-2008 4:44pm

kerry4sam wrote: »

Their is NO LISBON 2 ... that was it! :mad: That was Irelands chance to secure a stable reliable future

Not according to what Manuel barroso just said.

kerry4sam · 13-06-2008 4:48pm

menoscemo wrote: »

Not according to what Manuel barroso just said.

have a link ? Their won't be another chance for the people of Ireland to vote in a Lisbon Treaty again

Paddyo · 13-06-2008 4:55pm

These are questions rather than comments.

1) Just because other countries ratify the treaty, surely this does not mean that it comes into effect?

2) How can it come into effect, for example, with the commissioners, will we keep a commissioner all of the time and the other 26 countries only have one for 10 in 15 years?

Paddyo

woodseb · 13-06-2008 4:58pm

there's a very good reason treaties like this don't get to the general public -they are complicated legal documents by necessity and hence it is sometimes better that elected representatives (you see democracy) negotiate and agree on the general publics behalf. A major complaint of no voters that it was too complicated and didn't know what was in it so rather than not vote on something they didn't understand they voted No

Kovik · 13-06-2008 5:00pm

We have until January 1st to ratify. I'm thinking the government will launch an enormous fundraising campaign, take a few months to prepare a more refined, expensive campaign (more akin to their general election efforts) and come back. It'll be the autumn, I would imagine.

carveone · 13-06-2008 5:01pm

Paddyo wrote: »

These are questions rather than comments.

1) Just because other countries ratify the treaty, surely this does not mean that it comes into effect?

Why not. 26/27 ratify, Ireland will be the only one on a single speed in a two speed Europe. That's what "they" are saying - to be honest I need to do more reading to find out what that means.

2) How can it come into effect, for example, with the commissioners, will we keep a commissioner all of the time and the other 26 countries only have one for 10 in 15 years?

Nope. Nice is active anyway so we could lose "our" commissioner tomorrow.

O'Morris · 13-06-2008 5:01pm

kerry4sam wrote: »

have a link ? Their won't be another chance for the people of Ireland to vote in a Lisbon Treaty again

From the RTE News site:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0613/eulisbonreax.html

Interesting that Eamon Gilmore has come out and said that he wouldn't support a rerun of the referendum.

menoscemo · 13-06-2008 5:03pm

kerry4sam wrote: »

have a link ? Their won't be another chance for the people of Ireland to vote in a Lisbon Treaty again

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/212248,extra-lisbon-treaty-still-alive-barroso-says.html

I am taking the last sentence of "The commission head said he had invited the Irish government to explain the motives behind the no vote" as meaning he will later try to fix whatever our objections were.

the fact is that Lisbon is a dead duck unless all 27 members approve it, so if he wants the reamining countries to ratify it then he must plan to come back to Ireland later.

carveone · 13-06-2008 5:03pm

woodseb wrote: »

A major complaint of no voters that it was too complicated and didn't know what was in it so rather than not vote on something they didn't understand they voted No

Boards has seen major arguments on this all day but I'd have rather they'd just stayed at home. Yes and No side both.

menoscemo · 13-06-2008 5:04pm

O'Morris wrote: »

From the RTE News site:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0613/eulisbonreax.html

Interesting that Eamon Gilmore has come out and said that he wouldn't support a rerun of the referendum.

Thanks, your link is better than Mine!

Rb · 13-06-2008 5:08pm

Paddyo wrote: »

These are questions rather than comments.

1) Just because other countries ratify the treaty, surely this does not mean that it comes into effect?

Officially it's not supposed to, Barrosso acknowledged this on Sky News a few minutes ago. If it does, well it'll say a huge amount about the EU, what they really think of Ireland and their stance on democracy.

They're shocked that a country voted no, despite two countries voting no to a very similar document. They literally do not know what to do now, how could such an institution as the EU have NO contingency plan for this? How could they stand there baffled as to what to do if one country voted no?

paddyo wrote:

2) How can it come into effect, for example, with the commissioners, will we keep a commissioner all of the time and the other 26 countries only have one for 10 in 15 years?

Paddyo

Nah we'll lose him soon enough, as agreed in the Nice Treaty.

amacachi · 13-06-2008 5:09pm

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I favour democracy and I don't like seeing national parliaments ignoring the rights of people.

Let's see referendums!

I've been wondering about this point for a while, where do you draw the line on what to have a referendum on? Why elect politicians if we want to make every slight decision on a referendum?

menoscemo · 13-06-2008 5:11pm

amacachi wrote: »

while, where do you draw the line on what to have a referendum on?

Constitutuional issues.

Lisbon I is over, roll on Lisbon II...

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