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Lisbon I is over, roll on Lisbon II...

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    #122
    ruskin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 400 ✭✭ruskin


    If there is Lisbon 2, it would really show how little Cowen and co. think of the electorate. However, if it actually happened, I'd say bring it on, so we can beat your asses again


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    #123
    carveone
    Registered Users Posts: 1,228 ✭✭✭carveone


    ruskin wrote: »
    However, if it actually happened, I'd say bring it on, so we can beat your asses again

    It's all. A game. I see. Would you like more drama next time. Dancing clowns maybe...


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    #124
    amacachi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    menoscemo wrote: »
    Constitutuional issues.

    Right, so if it doesn't affect a country's constitution then there's no need for a vote on it? Hence why no other countries had a vote?


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    #125
    SkepticOne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭SkepticOne


    axer wrote: »
    Since it is being suggested that many of the EU countries are going to still go ahead with the ratification process how long shall before lisbon 2 comes?

    I love our democratic system - we have another "are you sure" more than likely coming our way.
    At least a year before Lisbon 2 I would think. Possibly longer given that we may be heading into economic difficulties.


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    #126
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    amacachi wrote: »
    Right, so if it doesn't affect a country's constitution then there's no need for a vote on it? Hence why no other countries had a vote?

    It does affect their constitutions, just their constitions can be changed by a parliamentary majority. In most cases it has to be by more than just a 50.1% majority or else there must then be a referendum.


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    #127
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »
    I favour democracy and I don't like seeing national parliaments ignoring the rights of people.

    Let's see referendums!

    If referendums were their "right" then none of those nations could have prevented them. They are not a right but at best a privilege. They vote for governments, not legal documents. We are an oddity.


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    #128
    kerry4sam
    Registered Users Posts: 15,127 ✭✭✭✭kerry4sam


    O'Morris wrote: »
    From the RTE News site:
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0613/eulisbonreax.html

    Interesting that Eamon Gilmore has come out and said that he wouldn't support a rerun of the referendum.
    menoscemo wrote: »
    http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/212248,extra-lisbon-treaty-still-alive-barroso-says.html

    I am taking the last sentence of "The commission head said he had invited the Irish government to explain the motives behind the no vote" as meaning he will later try to fix whatever our objections were.

    the fact is that Lisbon is a dead duck unless all 27 members approve it, so if he wants the reamining countries to ratify it then he must plan to come back to Ireland later.

    cheers, makes for interesting reading and certainly interesting times ahead.


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    #129
    amacachi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    menoscemo wrote: »
    It does affect their constitutions, just their constitions can be changed by a parliamentary majority. In most cases it has to be by more than just a 50.1% majority or else there must then be a referendum.

    Right, so they're using the method set out by their own constitution to ratify the treaty? Almost sounds like democracy to me.


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    #130
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,249 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Can the rest of the EU simply kick us out?


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    #131
    carveone
    Registered Users Posts: 1,228 ✭✭✭carveone


    I am taking the last sentence of "The commission head said he had invited the Irish government to explain the motives behind the no vote" as meaning he'd like to know what they were doing playing for lolz, face time, drama in dressup costumes and generally screwing around looking for the villian in the black cloak instead of doing their damn job properly.

    Sorry, I think I need to lie down :)


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    #132
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    amacachi wrote: »
    Right, so they're using the method set out by their own constitution to ratify the treaty? Almost sounds like democracy to me.

    Shockingly, the EU consists of 26 democracies which allow their politicians to make political decisions.

    In other news: next weeks referendum in Ireland will determine if Brian Cowen should wear his red underpants on Saturday night. A no vote is expected to have dire consequences.


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    #133
    Rb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭Rb


    From watching interviews on Sky today, they keep mentioning that we're in "unchartered waters" and everyones baffled as to how to proceed.

    Barrosso is calling for every other country to continue ratifying(as he would, the citizens aren't getting a say in it afterall), some politicians are saying Lisbon is dead, like the constitution was back when France and the Netherlands said no.

    Surely they had some sort of contingency plan in case a country said No? How effective and organised is the EU if they didn't?

    Barrosso mentioned that this doesn't solve the problems that the Treaty was drawn up to solve, surely that would mean it's back to the drawing board? Officially, and Barrosso has recognised this, it does mean that it's back to the start and re-negotiations, yet he's now backpeddling and has mentioned the power of France and Germany??


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    #134
    Rb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭Rb


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    Shockingly, the EU consists of 26 democracies which allow their politicians to make political decisions.

    They haven't been given an option in this.


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    #135
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    Sleepy wrote: »
    Can the rest of the EU simply kick us out?

    Probably, but it's unlikely they ever would unless we do something much more significant. A more likely scenario is that the EU will simply become something that we haven't signed up to, therefore making us part of some vague superset of the real EU.


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    #136
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    Rb wrote: »
    They haven't been given an option in this.

    Just as we've never been given the option to vote on the budget. What sort of democracy doesn't allow it's citizens to micro-manage everything?


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    #137
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    Rb wrote: »
    Surely they had some sort of contingency plan in case a country said No? How effective and organised is the EU if they didn't?

    They expected it to be ratified because we were involved in negotiating it I guess. And I guess they expected that the government were reflecting our wishes when they negotiated. They probably were, but they did a terrible job of making people aware of that. No lessons learnt from Nice, sadly.


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    #138
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,186 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    #Just hearing on RTE, Sarkozy's party spokesman has stated that there will probably have to be asnother go at referendum and that Irish government should have the wherewithall to convince the Irish people to vote for it.

    That is the French view of how EU and our own democracy should work.

    Also discussion on if there is a way that Ireland can be legally tied into Lisbon in some other way.

    I am not allowed discuss …



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    #139
    SkepticOne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭SkepticOne


    One thing I find interesting is that the public No vote is exposing the horse-trading and cajoling that would otherwise be conducted behind closed doors.


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    #140
    edanto
    Registered Users Posts: 2,809 ✭✭✭edanto


    bauderline wrote: »
    Maybe we have reached the limit of the level of european integration people are prepared to accept or are comfortable with.

    Maybe. I don't think so, though.
    I think too much store is being put on the effectiveness of the EU going forward. We live in a GLOBAL economy not a european one, many of issues we face today can only be truly resolved at a global level. At the risk of sounding as mad as a hatter maybe we need a global government / parlament ?

    Baud.

    That is the worst nightmare of the richest people in the world and I'll tell you why. If that were to happen, then global financial transactions could be taxed, e.g. currency speculation, at which point they're not profitable (see Tobin Tax) and the group of people at the top of the world that get richer by handing money round and round in circles and charging us each time would have to come up with a new plan.

    In other news, the dollar finally recovered against the euro a bit today - so one immediate consequence of the No vote will be more expensive petrol as and from this weekend.


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    #141
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    jmayo wrote: »
    #Just hearing on RTE, Sarkozy's party spokesman has stated that there will probably have to be asnother go at referendum and that Irish government should have the wherewithall to convince the Irish people to vote for it.

    That is the French view of how EU and our own democracy should work.
    It pretty much coincides with my view.

    There's nothing inherently undemocratic about asking the same question twice, particularly if you give people better information the second time around.

    People whine continuously about having had two referenda on the Nice treaty, but I've yet to hear one of them ever complain about the fact that we've had two divorce referenda, and two (more, if you count separate proposals for constitutional amendments on the same day) on abortion.


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    #142
    zenno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    excellent result. fair play to the irish people that went out and voted no even though the thing is half unreadable. the government should cop on now that their not in touch with the citizens of ireland and should have done a better job on explaining it to us. but as it stands i dont think that was the cause of the no vote. most irish people are intelligent enough to see it is a bad ****ty deal. i do have to say though that there is a few good points in the lisbon treaty but the bad outways the good. and another point is the Lisbon treaty is dead any attempt to do a nice 2 will not work now as there was a very good turnout of people and it would be an insult to irish intelligence. no means no the sooner the assholes get that the better. happy day's.


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    #143
    Rb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭Rb


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    Just as we've never been given the option to vote on the budget. What sort of democracy doesn't allow it's citizens to micro-manage everything?
    Well, I wouldn't call the Lisbon Treaty and it's amendments to our constitution "micro" to be honest.


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    #144
    democrates
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,046 ✭✭✭democrates


    DishonestPikey wrote: »
    Or possibly the legality of approx 1 million voters deciding the fate of 500 million could be called into question. don't be so sure that this will simply be taken on the chin. Not very democratic when you look at it from the other side.
    It was rejected by a majority of 109,964 so if 54,983 had voted yes instead of no, then just over 1000th of the EU population would have made the difference.


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    #145
    carveone
    Registered Users Posts: 1,228 ✭✭✭carveone


    democrates wrote: »
    It was rejected by a majority of 109,964 so if 54,983 had voted yes instead of no, then just over 1000th of the EU population would have made the difference.

    Population of the EU is 500 million so that's a 10,000th...


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    #146
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,186 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    It pretty much coincides with my view.

    There's nothing inherently undemocratic about asking the same question twice, particularly if you give people better information the second time around.

    People whine continuously about having had two referenda on the Nice treaty, but I've yet to hear one of them ever complain about the fact that we've had two divorce referenda, and two (more, if you count separate proposals for constitutional amendments on the same day) on abortion.

    OB, what I have the problem with is the tone of the supposed comments and it is this talking down to the people that I find disheartening about the EU of late.
    Irish people do not like being lectured and in particular by someone foreign.
    It displays a dangerous conceited arrogance that will ultimately lead to the downfall of the great EU project.
    There are already a sizable number of French, Dutch and British voters that are really peed off with their governments for not accepting their previous views or allowing them have a view on this treaty.

    I am not allowed discuss …



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    #147
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    amacachi wrote: »
    Right, so they're using the method set out by their own constitution to ratify the treaty? Almost sounds like democracy to me.

    I know what you are saying here amacachi, but when the French and Dutch Governments decided (I use this word because they didn't have to) to put the EU Constitution to a referendum and thier people came back and said 'no' the whole ball game changed for me.
    I am not comfortable pushing ahead until that is righted.
    I understand you disagree with me and you think it is none of our business, but I disagree with you on that.
    I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this but no-one can or will convince me that my opinion is not relevant. If you can respect my opinion, I will offer you a handshake and then we will move on......


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    #148
    democrates
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,046 ✭✭✭democrates


    carveone wrote: »
    Population of the EU is 500 million so that's a 10,000th...
    I'm still getting .00011 from 55000/500000000 on my calculator....

    Edit - maybe it's an EU budget payments calculator.


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    #149
    democrates
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,046 ✭✭✭democrates


    bauderline wrote: »
    Maybe we have reached the limit of the level of european integration people are prepared to accept or are comfortable with. I would guess that people want decisions regarding the irish state to be made by the politicians they elected not ones in europe that they did not elect.

    I think the real problem is that people in many european countries perceive that control over social and economic policies are being eroded from the national government in favour of EU.

    If the people of europe favour a loosely based community over a united states of europe who is to say that they are wrong.

    I think too much store is being put on the effectiveness of the EU going forward. We live in a GLOBAL economy not a european one, many of issues we face today can only be truly resolved at a global level. At the risk of sounding as mad as a hatter maybe we need a global government / parlament ?

    Baud.
    I think that's what future generations may end up doing, but it's not on the horizon of anyone alive today. We can make all the international agreements we like without surrendering control over our own lands.


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    #150
    passive
    Registered Users Posts: 2,403 ✭✭✭passive


    Rb wrote: »
    Well, I wouldn't call the Lisbon Treaty and it's amendments to our constitution "micro" to be honest.

    Refresh my memory, which were the major amendments to our constitution?


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    #151
    democrates
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,046 ✭✭✭democrates


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    That's not your call. That's up to the citizens in each country. Our country, our rules - their countries, their rules.


    cordially,
    Scofflaw
    But that ideal you espouse is exactly what is binned when a veto changes to QMV, whereby the individual nation can have rules imposed which it does not want, and by political representatives I might add - a tiny proportion of the EU half billion.


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