Lisbon I is over, roll on Lisbon II...

FionnMatthew

limklad wrote: »

There is no alternative but choose what is available on an election sheet.

For the Referendum we had a choice too YES or NO. We made it and it our elected
Politicians job is to talk to us and find out why we voted NO and find a different path for the EU. Most people complaining here about the referendum are from the yes camp who now have “No respect for Democracy of the people” and trying to smear those who voted NO (who made their own choice) as stupid.

For my part, limklad, I did not vote on either side in the election, and would have held either result as symptomatic of a general rot in the responsibility of the Irish electorate.

I have little respect for the Irish electorate, regardless of its decision. The decision, as far as I am concerned, might as well have been Heads or Tails. I am more concerned with the rather evident general childishness of the electorate than the decision it came to.

FYI, there is no other democracy than the "democracy of the people", since the "democracy of the people" translates roughly as "rule of the people of the people."

FionnMatthew

zenno wrote: »

after all the crap the irish republican army went through to get independance in this country just over 700,000 irish people want to get rid of it and give it to the dictatorship of brussels. how can you people sleep at night your not f,ucking irish.

Not if, for you, the term 'Irish' means ideologically committed romantic nationalist, with arbitrary commitments to unfounded national pride, admiration for terrorist political agitators and an unswerving, and irrational hatred of the British.

No. I'm not Irish either, by those standards. And I didn't even vote YES.

democrates

djpbarry wrote: »

Precisely my point, so voting 'No' in solidarity with our fellow EU citizens is a bit daft when for all we know, they may well support the treaty.

"May well support the treaty" is fair enough compared with you're earlier position of " just accept that most EU citizens are happy enough for their parliaments to ratify the treaty for them" for which is no evidence.

democrates

oscarBravo wrote: »

Ireland. Neither the citizens nor the politicians are EU members; the country is. Your very premise avoids the point I was getting at, which you side-stepped: we achieve more by negotiation and compromise than we would by pushing everything to a vote we can veto.

Your point on negotiation and compromise I accept, but I'd prefer an opt-in relationship with our fellow Europeans rather than the EU increasingly running member states, so veto or QMV wouldn't be the mechanism employed.

oscarBravo wrote: »

What's wrong with an opt-in EU? Good question. Why don't we have an opt-in system of government in this country? That way I can opt-in to those laws I agree with, and avoid the pesky ones that don't suit me.

I never suggested going as far as anarchy, that's an extrapolated extreme of your own concoction you're knocking.

My preference would be that for the most part our representatives get on with negotiating agreements, but at any stage a petition of citizens could trigger a referendum.

thecaptain

djpbarry wrote: »

So you've no idea what you want changed? That's what I thought, but thanks for clearing it up.

Maybe he does not want any treaty whatsoever??????????





Face the facts the only people who could vote, voted NO.

All the rest had the treaty pushed throught bypoliticians who have long been bought and paid for.

ateam

thecaptain wrote: »

Maybe he does not want any treaty whatsoever??????????





Face the facts the only people who could vote, voted NO.

All the rest had the treaty pushed throught bypoliticians who have long been bought and paid for.

The exact same can be said for the No side. Some people are just anti-Government people and believe everything is a conspiracy and that they're out to get you.

The No side have left the country in a mess and have offered no solutions to the problem.

limklad

FionnMatthew wrote: »

For my part, limklad, I did not vote on either side in the election, and would have held either result as symptomatic of a general rot in the responsibility of the Irish electorate.

FionnMatthew wrote: »

I have little respect for the Irish electorate, regardless of its decision. The decision, as far as I am concerned, might as well have been Heads or Tails. I am more concerned with the rather evident general childishness of the electorate than the decision it came to.

FYI, there is no other democracy than the "democracy of the people", since the "democracy of the people" translates roughly as "rule of the people of the people."

Irish democracy, Irish Rules needed to pass the treaty.
EU treaties can only be passed by member states own laws, those were the requirement of the treaty to come into force and it was agreed by current and past EU Leaders. Irish NO Vote is showing up the Bad side of the EU Leaders and supporters
Now they (EU Leaders) are beginning to break their agreements by trying to bypass the Irish electorate when things are not going their way and now I am very suspicious of their motives and between hidden and public agenda’s

For Treaty to pass in some countries, more than Upper and Lower Parliament, that is needed to pass the Lisbon Treaty.

i.e In Finland- Passing this treaty they first needs approval in Åland Islands before they pass the treaty. Which has 0.50% of Finland's population and 0.49% of land area. Population 27 Thousand.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%85land_Islands

In Belgium, there is 10 different bodies, of councils, and senates etc needed to pass it. It takes just one of them to fail to ratify it.
Do you respect Belgium decision of their public elected officials if they vote NO?

In Britain,
They need Gibraltar Parliament agreement to pass the treaty, Would you respect their decision? population 27 Thousand.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar

See ratification process of Lisbon Treaty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon

In Ireland when the People spoke, Bigots for the Yes side and bigots of the political system complained and started a smear campaign that people are stupid without actually taking to everybody who voted NO. They are looking for "Narrow View No Voters" and to use them to batter the Rest of NO voters who did make inform decision.

They way things are going now. I will certainly vote NO to Lisbon 2 Campaign, as there is NO respect or understanding why the People decision in voting NO. There is No respect for Democracy within the Irish Sovereign state by other outside the State within the EU. EU was built on unanimity agreements by all countries through collective cooperation in the spirit of Peace and common good and aims.

There is also of Narrow Yes voters out there who are not truly educated on the Lisbon treaty that it starts with the top - the Irish Government who did not read the treaty that they sign on our behalf.The Government Failed to do their Homework and now they got a F in their Exam.

FrankGrimes

The vast majority of No campaigners and No voters have stated that they are not anti-EU, they are just anti-Lisbon treaty.

That implies that most of the No side do not want Ireland to leave the EU - some may want to leave our engagement level as it is, others may want to decrease it, others may want to increase it.

Regardless of the flawed approach for taking it to the electorate, the aims of the Lisbon treaty was to simplify the workings of the EU to make it more effective and responsive at doing what it already does and also to make it more accountable. In the eyes of the Irish electorate, it either did not achieve that, or the trade-offs involved in achieving that were regarded as too much to warrant a Yes vote. I think all our own politicians will come to fully respect that as should the EU.

However, if the government were to extensively engage with the voting public to determine what changes they would like to see made to the treaty that would allow the treaty to achieve its goals while also addressing all concerns of the Irish No voters, what's the big deal if they were to then bring this to the EU and get a second treaty put to referendum in Ireland?

In my eyes, though that would require a level of engagement with the public not often seen, it would be a classic example of democracy in action: "we the government want this, you the people want that, we figure out how to get that for you".

But yet, it seems there's plenty of people here that would vote No to a second treaty simply on principle. If the surveying the public showed that the majority want nothing to do with the EU or zero changes to the current (inefficient) institutions, then so be it and let there be no second treaty. But if it seems the majority of the public would support Lisbon if some specific concerns are addressed, what is wrong with having a referendum on a second treaty that addresses those concerns?

turgon

ateam wrote: »

The No side have left the country in a mess and have offered no solutions to the problem.

So I would assume then that you have talked to each and every one of the 800,000 No voters then?

But yet, it seems there's plenty of people here that would vote No to a second treaty simply on principle.

If my concerns were addressed I would delight at the opportunity to say a big Yes to Europe. I would have no problem with a second treaty, granted it was different and it cleared up a view concerns.

It takes just one of them to fail to ratify it.

If for example the French speakers in Brussels didnt want it, the game would be up.