The people of Ireland have spoken.

dlofnep

In a resounding Yes to democracy, no to Lisbon. It's time for the yes side to accept defeat and take note. This is democracy in action. If the people of Europe had the opportunity to vote, I am sure we would have seen similar results across the board. The people of Ireland have spoken for the people of Europe, but I fear - the other countries will still go forth with the Lisbon treaty, muting the outcry of the Irish people and their very own people, while Ireland will become exempt for the stipulations of the cryptic text, known only as the Lisbon Treaty.

bill_ashmount

Ya, congrats to the No campaign. A great victory despite the forces mounted against you.

You stood tall and refused to be broken. A great day for all Europeans.....

vandermeyde

The treaty needs to be ratified by all countries in order for it to become law so in effect we've vetoed it. As things stand currently, it's dead in the water.

BlitzKrieg

congrats to the *no* campaign, how much a I may disagree with you, when it came down to the wire you had more support.


But on a side comment and not one to be taken too seriously.

with posts like the OP's why is it always people on the *yes* being accused of being arrogent?

dlofnep

vandermeyde wrote: »

The treaty needs to be ratified by all countries in order for it to become law so in effect we've vetoed it. As things stand currently, it's dead in the water.

I read a report yesterday that said there was plans to possibly still go ahead with it for the rest of the member states, but make Ireland except. It was a backup plan from Brussels. I guess we'll see?

BlitzKrieg - I didn't mean to come across as arrogant, but the YES campaign has been on a high horse all through this debate and spoke down to many voting no - trying to ridicule them.

nacho libre

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

congrats to the *no* campaign, how much a I may disagree with you, when it came down to the wire you had more support.


But on a side comment and not one to be taken too seriously.

with posts like the OP's why is it always people on the *yes* being accused of being arrogent?

There are arrogant people on both sides of the divide. It is good you are not badgering people for voting no and accept the outcome- unlike others here who give off the vibe they are suffering from the ignorance of the masses. That kind of carry on is insufferable. If a yes vote had carried i'd have accepted it and not starting insulting people for voting no. It's not asking much to expect maturity and humility from both camps.

dlofnep

Agreed with nacho libre. If the YES campaign had of won, I wouldn't be here right now questioning it. It would accepted it as part of democracy.

Ri na hEireann

dlofnep wrote: »

I read a report yesterday that said there was plans to possibly still go ahead with it for the rest of the member states, but make Ireland except. It was a backup plan from Brussels. I guess we'll see?

BlitzKrieg - I didn't mean to come across as arrogant, but the YES campaign has been on a high horse all through this debate and spoke down to many voting no - trying to ridicule them.

Legally they can't just go ahead with it and make Ireland exempt...that's a non-runner.

I don't think the YES campaign has been on a high horse. I just think that it must have been awfully frusrating to fight a campaign on the basis of discrediting a NO side who didn't really make any argument that related directly to the treaty,but rather voiced reservations about Europe.

The NO campaign ,undeniably put a haze over every possible issue they could and the Irish people decided this was enough to vote no....We have to accept this and move forward even if it was the wrong decision...which it was in my opinion.

Mr.Nice Guy

Agree with the OP. The people of spoken now we should have our views listened to and respected.

vandermeyde

Ri na hEireann wrote: »

Legally they can't just go ahead with it and make Ireland exempt...that's a non-runner.

I don't think the YES campaign has been on a high horse. I just think that it must have been awfully frusrating to fight a campaign on the basis of discrediting a NO side who didn't really make any argument that related directly to the treaty,but rather voiced reservations about Europe.

The NO campaign ,undeniably put a haze over every possible issue they could and the Irish people decided this was enough to vote no....We have to accept this and move forward even if it was the wrong decision...which it was in my opinion.

I think one of the major mistakes was that the YES side, particularly our esteemed Taoiseach, were so lofty and arrogant in their approach that they spent more time attacking the messengers on the NO side rather than attacking the message.

I voted Yes but I found it distasteful in the extreme that anyone who dared to vote No was being tarred as some kind of loony, anti-EU ignoramus.

People are entitled to vote however they choose. Democracy at it's finest.

As I've said elsewhere, if other countries/institutions have a problem with the democratic will of the Irish people, they can fup the fup off.

Zube

vandermeyde wrote: »

I
I voted Yes but I found it distasteful in the extreme that anyone who dared to vote No was being tarred as some kind of loony, anti-EU ignoramus.

And yet before the result is even in, the anti-EU loonies are already on here calling for Ireland to leave the EU!

nesf

I can respect the people, it's their call. As much as I dislike the "rule of the mob" aspects of referendums, it's the mechanism that we use for this kind of thing and you have to abide by the mobs call in these matters.


What annoys me is the some of the groups that fought for the No campaign. I can respect Sinn Fein for the most part because outside a little spin and misrepresentation (like our voting weight being halved), they fought a standard political campaign of finding the discontents and fighting to get that vote out yesterday. There are genuine people out there who were No voters and weren't swayed by the emotive **** stirring by other groups, I can respect this.

Groups like Cóir and Libertas on the other hand were lying through their teeth. Abortion wasn't an issue in this referendum. All the major groups, including Sinn Fein, agreed on this but that didn't stop Cóir cynically lying about it and stirring **** up about. Libertas changed what they were saying every other day it seemed, all the time denying they'd ever said X or Y even when there was plenty of evidence to show that they had. This annoys me and it's what I hate about mob politics. It's not fought on the issues, or any noble idea of the country's best interest but based on lies and **** stirring on a emotive and divisive issues.

It's left a very bad taste in my mouth. I don't blame the people themselves, it's very easy to mislead people with complicated documents like these. They fed on deep rooted fears that were not relevant to any serious discussion of the document, but hey that's politics isn't it.

Ulyanov

This was not democracy in action. The very fact that there was such a poor voter turnout proves the people didnt know what they wanted. The people have not spoken, they didnt turn up.

That is the victory for the no camp. They scared people away. To say Irish people have spoken for the people of Europe is a remark grossly wide of the mark. How can this be proven? Have millions of Europeans took to the streets in protest. Have governments fallen throughout Europe because they have not been afforded a referendum?

The answer is No they havent. To say it is a good day for Europeans?
No basis for this comment.

bill_ashmount

Ulyanov wrote: »

This was not democracy in action.

Wrong

nesf

Ulyanov wrote: »

The very fact that there was such a poor voter turnout proves the people didnt know what they wanted.

It was a good turnout for a referendum tbh.

Mr.Nice Guy

Ulyanov wrote: »

This was not democracy in action. The very fact that there was such a poor voter turnout proves the people didnt know what they wanted. The people have not spoken, they didnt turn up.

Oh for the love of God please spare us the low turnout bollocks. If it had been a Yes vote we'd not hear such remarks.

It WAS democracy in action and the people voted No. Accept it.

In/Casino/Out

I would have to agree that this is not a victory for democracy. Less than half the population voted and those that did often did not know enough to make a really informed decision.
This is just as much true for the yes vote as it is the no vote. I would find it hard to believe anyone could argue with the fact that the majority of voters didnt know what it was about and voted accordingly.

CerebralCortex

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

congrats to the *no* campaign, how much a I may disagree with you, when it came down to the wire you had more support.


But on a side comment and not one to be taken too seriously.

with posts like the OP's why is it always people on the *yes* being accused of being arrogent?

Good point, perhaps with maybe a better delivery with the terms of the treaty I may have voted yes.

CerebralCortex

In/Casino/Out wrote: »

I would have to agree that this is not a victory for democracy. Less than half the population voted and those that did often did not know enough to make a really informed decision.
This is just as much true for the yes vote as it is the no vote. I would find it hard to believe anyone could argue with the fact that the majority of voters didnt know what it was about and voted accordingly.

Its funny while voting I met an oldish man who thought it was a general election it was kind of funny but sad at the same time. :pac:

Hitman Actual

Ulyanov wrote: »

This was not democracy in action. The very fact that there was such a poor voter turnout proves the people didnt know what they wanted. The people have not spoken, they didnt turn up.

It was a higher than usual turn-out for a referendum. And the Yes side reckoned that if there was a turnout of 45%+, it would be enough to swing if for them. They were wrong on that as well...

I agree with much of what nesf said. Whatever about Sinn Fein, Coir and Libertas got away with an extremely misleading campaign. Some of the No camp are talking about a misleading/scaremongering campaign by the Yes camp, but it was nothing on the scale of the outright lies perpetuated by Coir and Libertas.

skearon

nesf wrote: »

Groups like Cóir and Libertas on the other hand were lying through their teeth. Abortion wasn't an issue in this referendum. All the major groups, including Sinn Fein, agreed on this but that didn't stop Cóir cynically lying about it and stirring **** up about. Libertas changed what they were saying every other day it seemed, all the time denying they'd ever said X or Y even when there was plenty of evidence to show that they had. This annoys me and it's what I hate about mob politics. It's not fought on the issues, or any noble idea of the country's best interest but based on lies and **** stirring on a emotive and divisive issues.

It's left a very bad taste in my mouth. I don't blame the people themselves, it's very easy to mislead people with complicated documents like these. They fed on deep rooted fears that were not relevant to any serious discussion of the document, but hey that's politics isn't it.

Well put, and apart from being the worst foreign policy decision we Irish have ever made, it just shows that engaging in a deliberate policy of spreading confusion through misrepresentation works.

Now that they have sidelined Ireland in Europe, I wonder will the No side be just as proud of themselves when they find foreign investment bypassing this country, jobs going, and the dole queues growing. Yes well done lads, a day you tell your grandchildren about as they leave the country to find jobs.

mewso

When will the Government learn? They should have worded it differently:-

Should we Reject the Lisbon Treaty?

Vote Yes - to reject the Lisbon Treaty.
Vote No - to accept it.

Woulda been quids in then.

CerebralCortex

skearon wrote: »

Well put, and apart from being the worst foreign policy decision we Irish have ever made, it just shows that engaging in a deliberate policy of spreading confusion through misrepresentation works.

Now that they have sidelined Ireland in Europe, I wonder will the No side be just as proud of themselves when they find foreign investment bypassing this country, jobs going, and the dole queues growing. Yes well done lads, a day you tell your grandchildren about as they leave the country to find jobs.

How does sideline us in Europe exactly? I'm curious to know and if it does is that the kind of Europe we want: one that sidelines us for exercising our democratic right, I want to stay in Europe I want Europe to work as well as it can none of these reasons have anything to do with why I voted No. In fairness delivery of the treaty was pathetic. Its terms of implementation undemocratic. IMHO

kerry4sam

Absolutely shocking how the political parties are not in tune with the people of Ireland ...

The YES vote got off to a real slow start that just never gained any substantial momentum. I am disappointed it wasn't ratified and i am worried as to what will happen to our future as a result ...

imeddyhobbs

There was once a book titled "How the Irish saved civilization". They have done it again. The governments of "free" Europe tried to impose a rejected Constitution (wrapped in the smelly fish paper of a "treaty") on their citizens. The Irish have shown courage in the face of EU government cowardice:)

nesf

CerebralCortex wrote: »

How does sideline us in Europe exactly?

In fairness, it has been something discussed seriously as a possibility in the media outside of Ireland, like the Economist and the Financial Times. No one likes the idea of it but it's an idea that's been floating about for a long time but since enlargement it's gaining a bit more support.

zuchum

I'm emigrating, you're all morons

imeddyhobbs

zuchum wrote: »

I'm emigrating, you're all morons

Emigrating to somewhere that you dont have a voice?

Try mainland europe

Dave!

zuchum wrote: »

I'm emigrating, you're all morons

lol

Mr.Nice Guy

zuchum wrote: »

I'm emigrating, you're all morons

May I suggest China.

seamus

CerebralCortex wrote: »

How does sideline us in Europe exactly?

As mentioned, it could be something which leaves as something of a hanger-on state.

The French PM (?) said today that if the vote was turned down by us, that the other members should go ahead and ratify it, then we'd see what kind of legal arrangement could be made re: Ireland.

It could be a matter where we opt into a handful of the Lisbon things - stuff which doesn't modify any previous treaties, but get excluded from other initiatives when they would contradict the Nice treaty.

It may even be a matter of hanging on for two years until we've opted into and implemented most of the Lisbon stuff anyway and then just asking people to approve a treaty which we've mostly subscribed to.