The people of Ireland have spoken.

Kovik

Congratulations to Declan Ganley, an unaccountable, unelected, unvetted political spokesman with an enormous financial interest in the outcome of this vote, for purchasing a referendum.

Democracy indeed.

kerry4sam

zuchum wrote: »

I'm emigrating, you're all morons

In a few years you won't be the only person thinking that way

skearon

zuchum wrote: »

I'm emigrating, you're all morons

Because of the referendum No result? No, stay and help expose the lies of Libertas, SF etc

gordon_gekko

the no vote of the people must of course be respected , however as gay mitchell said on radio earlier , all those on the no campagin and all those members of the public who voted no must now take responsibility for there descision

Hitman Actual

seamus wrote: »

As mentioned, it could be something which leaves as something of a hanger-on state.

The French PM (?) said today that if the vote was turned down by us, that the other members should go ahead and ratify it, then we'd see what kind of legal arrangement could be made re: Ireland.

It could be a matter where we opt into a handful of the Lisbon things - stuff which doesn't modify any previous treaties, but get excluded from other initiatives when they would contradict the Nice treaty.

A German MEP was talking earlier about a two-speed EU as well. Not just for Ireland, but for other countries who are not happy with the Treaty. Which is strange seeing as it looks like every other country will ratify it anyway, if what Barroso is saying pans out.

Actually, that's exactly what you're saying. Us on our own with a slimmed-down version of the Treaty.

skearon

kerry4sam wrote: »

Absolutely shocking how the political parties are not in tune with the people of Ireland ...

These are the same political parties we voted for just over a year ago in a general election? 96% of the TDs we elected were in favour of the benefits saying Yes to Lisbon would bring to Ireland and it's people.

What is shocking is how a well and secretly funded organisation, Libertas, which is unelected and an unaccountable, can, by throwing huge sums of money into advertising, persuade people to vote a certain way with bogus and false arguements.

imeddyhobbs

Kovik wrote: »

Congratulations to Declan Ganley, an unaccountable, unelected, unvetted political spokesman with an enormous financial interest in the outcome of this vote, for purchasing a referendum.

Democracy indeed.

It was this movie that made me vote the way that I did http://www.infowars.com/?p=2672
Ganley unelected like the European Commission?are you making a comparison
?
Anyway looks like libertas will become a political party soon

Kovik

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

It was this movie that made me vote the way that I did http://www.infowars.com/?p=2672
Ganley unelected like the European Commission?are you making a comparison
?
Anyway looks like libertas will become a political party soon

That's the worst film I've ever seen.

The commission represents the EU on issues primarily relating to administration and has no bearing on national or individual representation. Your interests are represented by the MEPs you elect and by the various ministers of the government you elect as they represent the country in over a score of EU councils where the vast majority of transnational EU policy is made and in which every single country has an effective majority on all issues that would directly impact national policy, with or without Lisbon.

dlofnep

Kovik wrote: »

Congratulations to Declan Ganley, an unaccountable, unelected, unvetted political spokesman with an enormous financial interest in the outcome of this vote, for purchasing a referendum.

Democracy indeed.

Yes, Declan Ganley was the only person campaigning for a no vote... :rolleyes:

The people who won the no vote are all of us who were on the ground distributing leaflets across Ireland over the past few months. Organised meetings, speeches, debates.

kerry4sam

skearon wrote: »

These are the same political parties we voted for just over a year ago in a general election? 96% of the TDs we elected were in favour of the benefits saying Yes to Lisbon would bring to Ireland and it's people.

Look at how the majority of people have stood up now though and ignored the voice of these elected politicians; who if they really had their ears to the ground would have predicted this outcome and done something sooner.

Retribution

dlofnep wrote: »

In a resounding Yes to democracy, no to Lisbon. It's time for the yes side to accept defeat and take note. This is democracy in action. If the people of Europe had the opportunity to vote, I am sure we would have seen similar results across the board. The people of Ireland have spoken for the people of Europe, but I fear - the other countries will still go forth with the Lisbon treaty, muting the outcry of the Irish people and their very own people, while Ireland will become exempt for the stipulations of the cryptic text, known only as the Lisbon Treaty.

Well first of all i want to thank you for voting No in this referendum. As you have said we didnt have any chance to say our opinion about Lisbon.. We were simply cut off from the decision our goverments did it themselfs. You were the only nation in Europe which have got the oportunity to say what they really think about "force extensions" in europe. I know the whole Lisbon treaty and i belive its wrong. Our Constitution Tribunal should acuse our politics for voting YES but as in the rest of Europe nowdays democracy is dying.. That's why once again i want to thank you because most likely you have saved remainings of our freedom.

Tom - from Poland

P.S. I want to apologise for my bad English

dlofnep

Glad we could speak on our behalf which reflected your opinion Tom. Like I said, I believe if the rest of Europe had a voice on this - it would most likely have been a resounding NO.

Kovik

dlofnep wrote: »

Yes, Declan Ganley was the only person campaigning for a no vote... :rolleyes:

Libertas spent more on their campaign than every major political party combined.

In addition, they refused to make the source of their funding public.

The vast majority of lay campaigners, leaflets and No advertising came from this group.

This wasn't a democratic exercise. It was a hatchet job by the person with the deepest pockets.

Retribution

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

May I suggest China.

Hong Kong is a nice place to live same Macao.. both "part" of China empire.

imeddyhobbs

Kovik wrote: »

Libertas spent more on their campaign than every major political party combined.

In addition, they refused to make the source of their funding public.

The vast majority of lay campaigners, leaflets and No advertising came from this group.

This wasn't a democratic exercise. It was a hatchet job by the person with the deepest pockets.

That all sounds like sower grapes to me.
What does it matter where they get money from,they did'nt pay people to vote no so thats not an issue,Are you saying that they did something wrong?

dlofnep

Kovik wrote: »

Libertas spent more on their campaign than every major political party combined.

In addition, they refused to make the source of their funding public.

The vast majority of lay campaigners, leaflets and No advertising came from this group.

This wasn't a democratic exercise. It was a hatchet job by the person with the deepest pockets.

More money? Perhaps.. More man-power and time? Certainly not. I was on the ground for the no campaign. I'm full aware of the time put in from the no sides. SF did much more on the ground than Liberlies did.

But you want to talk about money? FF has more money than all the NO parties put together, along with political swing - and look what that got them. The people of Ireland voted no because it was their wish to do so, and not because Declan Ganley asked them.

nesf

dlofnep wrote: »

More money? Perhaps.. More man-power and time? Certainly not. I was on the ground for the no campaign. I'm full aware of the time put in from the no sides. SF did much more on the ground than Liberlies did.

Libertas was far better funded than SF from what I heard from people in SF down here. SF definitely did way more on a grassroots level but considering that Libertas doesn't have a grassroots movement to speak of really, you'd expect this.

Kovik

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

That all sounds like sower grapes to me.
What does it matter where they get money from,they did'nt pay people to vote no so thats not an issue,Are you saying that they did something wrong?

Their strategy was dependent on outspending the legitimate parties in the country. Their arguments were unfounded and nebulous at best and they succeeded in it by simply bombarding the public with their demonstrably false pronouncements. Though the Yes parties and lobby groups succeeded universally in contradicting these nonsense claims, the No side dominated in terms of the distillation of their (mis)information.

uptherebels

Kovik wrote: »

Their strategy was dependent on outspending the legitimate parties in the country. Their arguments were unfounded and nebulous at best and they succeeded in it by simply bombarding the public with their demonstrably false pronouncements. Though the Yes parties and lobby groups succeeded universally in contradicting these nonsense claims, the No side dominated in terms of the distillation of their (mis)information.

I wouldnt say succeeded universally in contradicting these nonsense claims,for example micheal martin on the tv the other night was asked for a yes or no answer as to wether the treaty would or would not force us to increase our miitary spending.Now instead of giving a proper answer he started to ramble on about the great job we do as peacekeepers.

dlofnep

nesf wrote: »

Libertas was far better funded than SF from what I heard from people in SF down here. SF definitely did way more on a grassroots level but considering that Libertas doesn't have a grassroots movement to speak of really, you'd expect this.

Yes, I already stated that they were better funded. Declan Ganley is worth a few 100 million. I was highlighting that money doesn't win everything, it's the people who are out on the ground, going door to door who win - not the almighty buck.

steviec

I find the "victory for democracy" claim interesting.

It's a pretty damning failure for representative democracy as far as I can see. When the democratically elected representatives of all 500 million people in the EU overwhelmingly support the treaty, but their decision gets vetoed by a public vote in one small corner of the union with a turn out of what I guess is a lot less than 1% of the people this treaty affects.

Personally I've always thought it was a bad choice (albeit required by the constitution) to put issues that most of the public clearly don't understand to referendum, where the result is entirely dependant on how well each side explains their position, rather than the merits of the positions themselves. If our elected representatives overwhelmingly support a motion, then I'd rather let them do the jobs we elected them to do, than have it put to a public vote that can be heavily swayed by big money publicity campaigns from special interest groups.

ircoha

Kovik wrote: »

Congratulations to Declan Ganley, an unaccountable, unelected, unvetted political spokesman with an enormous financial interest in the outcome of this vote, for purchasing a referendum.

Democracy indeed.

What exactly is the benefit to DG of this outcome?

CtrlSource

Kovik wrote: »

Their strategy was dependent on outspending the legitimate parties in the country. Their arguments were unfounded and nebulous at best and they succeeded in it by simply bombarding the public with their demonstrably false pronouncements. Though the Yes parties and lobby groups succeeded universally in contradicting these nonsense claims, the No side dominated in terms of the distillation of their (mis)information.

You're flogging this funding horse a bit much, i think. i am a No voter who was not influenced by Libertas and am hard pressed to remember what claims they made about the Treaty.

i informed myself on what's in the Treaty and then let that information, together with my impression of the arguments put forward by the main Yes parties, influence my choice at the ballot box.

NOBODY bought my vote with propaganda and i don't appreciate any implication that i'm some sort of moron who was swayed by whatever soundbites were emitted by the "person with the deepest pockets"

oscarBravo

ircoha wrote: »

What exactly is the benefit to DG of this outcome?

That's a question a lot of us would have liked an answer to some time ago.

guinnessdrinker

CtrlSource wrote: »

NOBODY bought my vote with propaganda and i don't appreciate any implication that i'm some sort of moron who was swayed by whatever soundbites were emitted by the "person with the deepest pockets"

This is a good point. People voted in whichever way they saw fit for a variety of reasons. Of course some voters were better informed than others but the result has been clear and must be respected. No amount of mudslinging at this stage is going to change the country's decision.

gordon_gekko

musician wrote: »

When will the Government learn? They should have worded it differently:-

Should we Reject the Lisbon Treaty?

Vote Yes - to reject the Lisbon Treaty.
Vote No - to accept it.

Woulda been quids in then.

i agree , there are enough rebels without a cause out there who,s nature it is to vote no , had the goverment been looking for a no vote but which meant the treaty passed , we,d have had a different outcome , the result was based on an emotional and completly irrational reaction
there were very few true believers on the no side
on a slightly different note , having seen the result the irish people gave today , it is my belief that we are in for a tough time as regards our energy situation in the coming yrs , the reason i believe this is not simply down to the price of oil but because the irish people will never allow nuclear power stations to be built , after seeing the result today , its clear , we are a very easy people to scare

Amberman

musician wrote: »

When will the Government learn? They should have worded it differently:-

Should we Reject the Lisbon Treaty?

Vote Yes - to reject the Lisbon Treaty.
Vote No - to accept it.

Woulda been quids in then.

Would you not like to reject the acceptance of the non ratification of the Lisbon treaty.

FYP

Amberman

Im disheartened by the fact that this European democracy isnt working RIGHT NOW. All countries had to ratify the treaty. Ireland didnt. Thats the EUs own law, but from the sounds of it, they are preparing to over ride their own citizens and their own rules and punish/slander Ireland as ingrates, just like the Yes voters told us they would.

Im all for closer DEMOCRATIC integration, but this simply isnt it...do as we say or else...and if you don't do as we say...then to hell with you...sit at the back of the class, wear this hat and we're going to press on anyway without you.

Faux democracy.

Helix

The people of Ireland have spoken.

and what they said was "i dont understand this and im not bothered finding out about it, so im going to vote no instead"

nesf

Amberman wrote: »

Im disheartened by the fact that this European democracy isnt working RIGHT NOW. All countries had to ratify the treaty. Ireland didnt. Thats the EUs own law, but from the sounds of it, they are preparing to over ride their own citizens and their own rules and punish/slander Ireland as ingrates, just like the Yes voters told us they would.

Im all for closer DEMOCRATIC integration, but this simply isnt it...do as we say or else...and if you don't do as we say...then to hell with you...sit at the back of the class, wear this hat and we're going to press on anyway without you.

Faux democracy.

I disagree to an extent. We don't have a God given right to be at the heart of the EU. If we as a nation resist the kind of democratic integration that the other member states want, they do have a right to go ahead without us. It'll be painful politically for them to do, and I strongly doubt it's the the preferred option, but we conversely can't just hold the whole lot of them back and expect them to beg for us to join either. Anyone voting No and thinking it was a vote for the status quo was deluding themselves. There have been several years of momentum built up painstakingly towards reform, they ain't just going to drop the whole idea because one tiny member says No.

Whether reform will be "reformed" and another offer made or whether we'll see a move to a "two track Europe" no one can say yet.