The people of Ireland have spoken.

is_that_so

The people have spoken and I respect it. However I am getting tired of referenda being passed or rejected by a minority in the country and appalled that yet again over 50% didn't bother. Whilst they can be an exercise in democracy a referendum that does not reach a minimum of 50%( would prefer 70% ) turnout to my mind should not be recognised as valid.

Danno

Valid? Over 1 million people voted - that is vaild enough. Besides, if people wanted and agenda for "consideration" in Europe under Lisbon, we would have needed over "whoaaa" 1 Million signatures!

is_that_so

Danno wrote: »

Valid? Over 1 million people voted - that is vaild enough. Besides, if people wanted and agenda for "consideration" in Europe under Lisbon, we would have needed over "whoaaa" 1 Million signatures!

Please read my post properly.

nesf

The Economist gives its usual balanced reaction. The comments pages are interesting from getting an international perspective: http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=11561610&source=features_box_main

I think the Economist has summed this one up quite well personally.

Call Me Jimmy

Danno wrote: »

Thank God this thing was rejected. Firstly, I don't want to be not represented in Europe for 5 out of every 15 years. Secondly, it is not fair that the rest of europe had only accepted this thing through their governments, not voters on the ground. That simply is enough of a reason to vote NO.

I'm not going to get into it but I just can't let this go. Who told you it was 5 out of 15 years?
Secondly, you make it sound like not having a commissioner for any period means anything can be done without our say or that we will not be apart of any discussions for that five years. Do you think any country, let alone every single one so far, would agree to not having any influence for five years at a time? The commissioner point is a compromise so that we don't have an excessive amount of people with nothing to do like there is now.

Jimkel

is_that_so wrote: »

The people have spoken and I respect it. However I am getting tired of referenda being passed or rejected by a minority in the country and appalled that yet again over 50% didn't bother. Whilst they can be an exercise in democracy a referendum that does not reach a minimum of 50%( would prefer 70% ) turnout to my mind should not be recognised as valid.

The people who did not vote either chose not to or could'nt make it to a polling station for whatever reasons. I resent the idea that you refer to the people who took the time to go out and vote as a minority.

The fact of the matter is, if you look at the goegraphy of the yes side, the majority of them are from middle class areas. the middle class are a minority in this country and in this case the majority, ie the normal working class citizens, have been heard.

nesf

Jimkel wrote: »

The fact of the matter is, if you look at the goegraphy of the yes side, the majority of them are from middle class areas. the middle class are a minority in this country and in this case the majority, ie the normal working class citizens, have been heard.

You make it sound like we should rise up and bloodily overthrow the yoke of repression that the middle class has placed upon us...

Danno

@ CALL ME JIMMY: Jimmy, the citizens of the other 26 countries did not vote to raitfy this treaty, their Government did that for them! Hardly democratic is that?

is_that_so

Jimkel wrote: »

The people who did not vote either chose not to or could'nt make it to a polling station for whatever reasons. I resent the idea that you refer to the people who took the time to go out and vote as a minority.

The fact of the matter is, if you look at the goegraphy of the yes side, the majority of them are from middle class areas. the middle class are a minority in this country and in this case the majority, ie the normal working class citizens, have been heard.

While it is good that we voted, we are still in the minority. I personally believe when it comes to voting it is a serious civic duty and one that should be exercised by all the eligible electorate whenever possible.

My comments are about referenda(plural). I am not making class distinction, saying this vote in invalid, disparaging those who voted yes or no. The simple fact is that very few over the last 20 years have gone over that 50% that I see as being representative.

Jimkel

nesf wrote: »

You make it sound like we should rise up and bloodily overthrow the yoke of repression that the middle class has placed upon us...

I am not an activist and personally I think the bulk of the middle class are too far up their own ar$e$ to opress anything but their own intellect.:p

Daftendirekt

Danno wrote: »

Thank God this thing was rejected. Firstly, I don't want to be not represented in Europe for 5 out of every 15 years.

1 - Commissioners don't represent their member states, the MEPs do.

2 - The Commission will be reduced to 18 commissioners in 2009 now that Lisbon has been rejected by us. This wouldn't have happened until 2014 had a Yes been the result of this referendum.

Jimkel

@Is-that-so I agree it's a shame more people don't vote, but thats a decision most of them make, it should'nt take away from the few who do.

SkepticOne

The big mistake was not stopping when the French and the Dutch (people) rejected the earlier version of the treaty. We could almost have said that the EU was a democratic institution if that had happened.

Jimkel

Yeah and if anyone feels Ireland should be pushed to the fringe of the EU as "punishment" then so should France and The Netherlands.

Danno

Daftendirekt wrote: »

1 - Commissioners don't represent their member states, the MEPs do.

2 - The Commission will be reduced to 18 commissioners in 2009 now that Lisbon has been rejected by us. This wouldn't have happened until 2014 had a Yes been the result of this referendum.

No point in putting off the inevitable, eh?

Jean-Marie

Danno has the point writing :
“... it is not fair that the rest of Europe had only accepted this thing through their governments, not voters on the ground.”

The story is that politicians do not trust people , they were afraid that last vote in France and Holland will be repeated.
Simply : They know what is better for us.
So we have not got our chance.
Too many things in EU are hypocritical.

So why I am very grateful to Ireland for this vote.
Irish were voting for us , in our name .
And this is the start of true Europe.
Thank you !

Danno

Jean-Marie wrote: »

Danno has the point writing :
“... it is not fair that the rest of Europe had only accepted this thing through their governments, not voters on the ground.”

The story is that politicians do not trust people , they were afraid that last vote in France and Holland will be repeated.
Simply : They know what is better for us.
So we have not got our chance.
Too many things in EU are hypocritical.

So why I am very grateful to Ireland for this vote.
Irish were voting for us , in our name .
And this is the start of true Europe.
Thank you !

Interestingly Jean-Marie, all my Polish co-workers said the exact same thing today at 5.30pm.

Jean-Marie

Yes, very interesting...
My Belgium colleges at work (at least some of them) thinks like me.
Very strange ...

You know, I have registered today , just to tell you : Thanks.
And I do not know if I will come on this forum again.
Got bless Ireland.

FionnMatthew

is_that_so wrote: »

While it is good that we voted, we are still in the minority. I personally believe when it comes to voting it is a serious civic duty and one that should be exercised by all the eligible electorate whenever possible.

My comments are about referenda(plural). I am not making class distinction, saying this vote in invalid, disparaging those who voted yes or no. The simple fact is that very few over the last 20 years have gone over that 50% that I see as being representative.

I abstained from this referendum, and for principled reasons.

Personally, I think there ought to have been a far lower turn out, since just about every vox pop in the media reveals that, largely, the Irish electorate voted blind on this one, basing their vote on what they were told was in the treaty, rather than what they discovered to have been in it after having read it carefully, and in full.

I believe it is more concordant with one's civic duty not to contaminate the ballot with an uninformed decision when one has little or no time to educate oneself properly as to the treaty, than to just go out and vote for the hell of it.

And taking into account the state of affairs in the run up to the referendum, I decided I wanted no part in this sham. No decision was made on the part of the electorate. We might as well have made it contingent on the National Lottery numbers. I have no duty to demean myself by proclaiming myself a member of so illiterate a group of people.

Irish and Proud

FionnMatthew wrote: »

I abstained from this referendum, and for principled reasons.

Personally, I think there ought to have been a far lower turn out, since just about every vox pop in the media reveals that, largely, the Irish electorate voted blind on this one, basing their vote on what they were told was in the treaty, rather than what they discovered to have been in it after having read it carefully, and in full.

I believe it is more concordant with one's civic duty not to contaminate the ballot with an uninformed decision when one has little or no time to educate oneself properly as to the treaty, than to just go out and vote for the hell of it.

And taking into account the state of affairs in the run up to the referendum, I decided I wanted no part in this sham. No decision was made on the part of the electorate. We might as well have made it contingent on the National Lottery numbers. I have no duty to demean myself by proclaiming myself a member of so illiterate a group of people.

If you don't know, vote No!

Irish and Proud

As an Irish citizen, I am really grateful for the appreciation which citizens from other EU countries have shown us. It is a day in which Ireland can be proud and a day in which the corrupt politicians and vested interests of Europe can hang their heads in shame!

Let's build a better EU - one that is Transparent, Accountable, and Democratic - one where every citizen can acquire the basics of survival on reasonable terms - one where the interests of all citizens are accommodated. In short, let's build an EU for its people - not an EU that is the reserve of arrogant politicians and greedy vested interests!

LET US HEAR IT FOR DEMOCRACY!!! :):)

irish_bob

FionnMatthew wrote: »

I abstained from this referendum, and for principled reasons.

Personally, I think there ought to have been a far lower turn out, since just about every vox pop in the media reveals that, largely, the Irish electorate voted blind on this one, basing their vote on what they were told was in the treaty, rather than what they discovered to have been in it after having read it carefully, and in full.

I believe it is more concordant with one's civic duty not to contaminate the ballot with an uninformed decision when one has little or no time to educate oneself properly as to the treaty, than to just go out and vote for the hell of it.

And taking into account the state of affairs in the run up to the referendum, I decided I wanted no part in this sham. No decision was made on the part of the electorate. We might as well have made it contingent on the National Lottery numbers. I have no duty to demean myself by proclaiming myself a member of so illiterate a group of people.

best post ive read in days

irish_bob

Irish and Proud wrote: »

If you don't know, vote No!

i see ben ( big mouth ) dunne has joined us

ircoha

Daftendirekt wrote: »

1 - Commissioners don't represent their member states, the MEPs do.

2 - The Commission will be reduced to 18 commissioners in 2009 now that Lisbon has been rejected by us. This wouldn't have happened until 2014 had a Yes been the result of this referendum.

This was discussed by Sean Whelan on PK show yday: germanys wanted an opt-in clause to have 27

skearon

steviec wrote: »

I find the "victory for democracy" claim interesting.

It's a pretty damning failure for representative democracy as far as I can see. When the democratically elected representatives of all 500 million people in the EU overwhelmingly support the treaty, but their decision gets vetoed by a public vote in one small corner of the union with a turn out of what I guess is a lot less than 1% of the people this treaty affects.

Personally I've always thought it was a bad choice (albeit required by the constitution) to put issues that most of the public clearly don't understand to referendum, where the result is entirely dependant on how well each side explains their position, rather than the merits of the positions themselves. If our elected representatives overwhelmingly support a motion, then I'd rather let them do the jobs we elected them to do, than have it put to a public vote that can be heavily swayed by big money publicity campaigns from special interest groups.

Extremely well put and one of the best posts on Lisbon I've seen.

We elect people to do a job, 96% of them were in favour of the treaty, the Govt spent years negotiating on our behalf, yet the people believe false arguements from a secretly funded organisation and effectively destroy the european project for half a billion people!

We need to have a referendum on not needing a referendum every time our elected representives have agreed an international treaty, as joe public clearly cannot understand such matters, no should joe public be expected to

skearon

Danno wrote: »

Thank God this thing was rejected. Firstly, I don't want to be not represented in Europe for 5 out of every 15 years. Secondly, it is not fair that the rest of europe had only accepted this thing through their governments, not voters on the ground. That simply is enough of a reason to vote NO.

This is a false arguement, which has been explained time and time again!!

You would have been represented every year by the council of minsters and the MEPs, both of which we elect representives to.

A commissioner does not represent the country he or she is from, they represent the EU.

Each country having a commissioner goes from 2009, this was agreed under Nice. What Lisbon did was to keep the commissioners as they are until 2014 and bring in a system of ABSOLUTELY EQUALITY BETWEEN COUNTRIES in that EVERY country would send a commissioner to the EU for 10 out of every 15 years.

ircoha

skearon wrote: »

Extremely well put and one of the best posts on Lisbon I've seen.

We elect people to do a job, 96% of them were in favour of the treaty, the Govt spent years negotiating on our behalf, yet the people believe false arguements from a secretly funded organisation and effectively destroy the european project for half a billion people!

We need to have a referendum on not needing a referendum every time our elected representives have agreed an international treaty, as joe public clearly cannot understand such matters, no should joe public be expected to

..yet the people believe false arguements from a secretly funded organisation..

I trust you know how all 800k plus voted to make such an elitist statement.

We need to have a referendum on not needing a referendum every time our elected representives have agreed an international treaty,

This was the plan at least for EU treaties: see page 9 and 10 of the Ref Com leaflet on the LT:)

skearon

Danno wrote: »

@ CALL ME JIMMY: Jimmy, the citizens of the other 26 countries did not vote to raitfy this treaty, their Government did that for them! Hardly democratic is that?

Its absolutely democratic, these people elect members of parliament to represent them, a majority of these members form a government, and the government carries out its duties, which include ratifying international treaties

skearon

ircoha wrote: »

I trust you know how all 800k plus voted to make such an elitist statement.

No of course not, but from having canvased for the past number of weeks, it was clear a majority of people believed Libertas' lies, it is also clear from the tallies that the areas which were canvassed had a stong Yes vote, as we were able to explain to people what the true situation was

Deletegmc

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty