Should we leave the EU?

marco_polo

O'Morris wrote: »

Yes, I think we should leave the EU. Maybe not straight-away, but as a long-term goal I would like to see us taking steps to becoming an independent country again.

In the short-term we should consider transferring our membership from the EU to the EFTA.




What do you mean by that? Why can't we leave?

How would joining the EFTA benefit us? Implementing practally all of the EU legislation without having any of the voting rights.

VoidStarNull

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

We don't need to leave the European Union if they respect democracy and the rights of ALL NATIONS.

If they do not, and recent reports indicate they want to press ahead anyway which shows how they view democracy, then perhaps withdrawal is an option that should be left on the table imo.

I do not wish to be part of an entity that does not respect my democratic values. The Treaty itself declared that they believed in such values

Hang on a sec, isn't that the treaty we just voted against?

kevteljeur

O'Morris wrote: »

Yes, I think we should leave the EU. Maybe not straight-away, but as a long-term goal I would like to see us taking steps to becoming an independent country again.

This isn't a world that has a lot of time for a notionally independent country of just 4 million people, who won't be able to participate in the powerful economic bloc right next to it. Ireland will be economically steam-rollered. You will see mass emigration once again, and our so-called neutrality will be sold off in no time.

VinLieger

I honestly dont think people realise how isolated we would be if we left the EU. We are a tiny island on the very edge of europe with a population of about 5-6 million. If we left europe our economy would be decimated we wouldnt be able to cope with the massive increase in import/export prices for one and there would be a myriad of other costs as well. And before anyone asks i voted no.

Mr.Nice Guy

VoidStarNull wrote: »

Hang on a sec, isn't that the treaty we just voted against?

The one they wouldn't allow anyone else in the EU have a vote on you mean? Uh, no. It's not.

mike65

What do you mean by that? Why can't we leave?

fromk bbc

An exit clause allowing member states to leave the European Union if they choose has been agreed by the majority of delegates at a convention on Europe's future.

Under current EU treaties, there is no acknowledged way of withdrawing from the Union.

The Convention - which is drafting a future constitution for the EU - has now completed two days of public debate on institutional issues and will meet again next month.

It is due to present a draft constitutional treaty to a European summit in June.

The proposed exit clause would allow any member state to withdraw from the EU.

The procedure would be legally and politically complicated and it would take at least two years.

But a majority of delegates at the Convention argued that a democratic body should allow countries to leave if they want.

Representatives of countries where opposition to the EU is strong, like Britain and Denmark, said the exit clause would undermine eurosceptic arguments that they were trapped in the EU with no escape.

Mike.

Phototoxin

People voted no because they didn't know what they were voting yes

Im so sick of this sh*t.

Ever consider that people voted no because they WANTED to and that that's all that matters in a referendum.

seriously its really irritating and all it does is detract from the yes 'side'

VoidStarNull

It's funny how all of the anti-EU folk have come out of the wood work since the vote finished. Where were ye all while the treaty was being debated? Pretending to be in favour of a "better EU", or the "EU as it is already is", I'm sure. :pac:

VinLieger

Phototoxin wrote: »

Im so sick of this sh*t.

Ever consider that people voted no because they WANTED to and that that's all that matters in a referendum.

seriously its really irritating and all it does is detract from the yes 'side'

Its not bull**** there is no way for the avergae person to understand the legalise nonsense that the treaty was made up of. There is no way something as confusing and complicated as Lisbon should have ever even been put to a public vote.

Rb

eoin2nc wrote: »

So the fishing indutry would be able to employ everyone in Microsoft,Dell,Intel,Whyeth ect who wolud lose their jobs?

70% of this country is employed in the services sector, which is totally dependent on the EU.

Do you know anything about your own economy?

Well thats just my 'silly atitude' to the EU

And what does that matter? Are we leaving the EU? No, no we're not.

The low taxes attracted the companies here, if we lose them it'll be as a result of
A: A hike in taxes
B: A drop in taxes in another country where the cost of labour is a lot lower than here.

They're not going anywhere as a result of today, we're not leaving Europe as a result of today.

As I said previously, you can be Pro-EU and Anti-Treaty, do you understand that?

Mr.Nice Guy

Phototoxin wrote: »

Im so sick of this sh*t.

Ever consider that people voted no because they WANTED to and that that's all that matters in a referendum.

seriously its really irritating and all it does is detract from the yes 'side'

Well said. They are ignorant and have closed minds.

Crash

We might as well leave. From the EU's point of view at the moment we don't really bring much of the ideals of cooperation to the table, we're continuously naysayers etc. - so why should they have to put up with us, for example?

Phototoxin

Its not bull**** there is no way for the avergae person to understand the legalise nonsense that the treaty was made up of. There is no way something as confusing and complicated as Lisbon should have ever even been put to a public vote.

then why is everyone saying oooh vote yes if they dont understand either. Im sorry but thats a silly argument.

I'm glad we could choose unlike nazi britian.

Mr.Nice Guy

crash_000 wrote: »

We might as well leave. From the EU's point of view at the moment we don't really bring much of the ideals of cooperation to the table, we're continuously naysayers etc. - so why should they have to put up with us, for example?

What nonsense. The people of Europe who were denied a chance to exercise democracy will be thrilled with this vote. Cooperation must have the support of the people. We are not here for their benefit, they are there for our benefit. That's democracy.

kevteljeur

Phototoxin wrote: »

Im so sick of this sh*t.

Ever consider that people voted no because they WANTED to and that that's all that matters in a referendum.

seriously its really irritating and all it does is detract from the yes 'side'

I think the biggest problem was asking people to vote on something at a time of serious economic uncertainty. If people are stressed, and things aren't looking good, then having a bunch of people shouting at you about "VOTE YES!" or "VOTE NO!", and the things they're asking you amounts to "The treaty is Shemmeb embelem mebebemmle egenb. Pick one." - Well, no is, was and always will be the safe option.

When in doubt, just say no. It's what we're been told since we were kids.

DeVore

One thing that annoyed me throughout this and other EU votes is this idea that we owe the EU for our economic upswing in the 90's and after.

The fact is that up until just about the year I graduated everyone simply emigrated and went to London, Berlin, Boston or Sydney. The period around when I left college (1991) marked a change in that trend and I found my generation (and I) had decided to stick around and work here.
Companies like Baltimore, Iona, Trintech all popped up, we had more entrepreneurs then any other country in Europe.

We were a generation beaten in school and driven through an unreconstructed Leaving Cert system which honed a certain amount of dog eat doggedness due to an uncompromisingly brutal points system.

People stayed and worked and put their finances on the line to build something here. It didnt arrive by UPS from Brussels one day you know.

I dont doubt that the EU has been good to Ireland but its insulting to say that they were the primary people behind our growth.

DeV.

kevteljeur

crash_000 wrote: »

We might as well leave. From the EU's point of view at the moment we don't really bring much of the ideals of cooperation to the table, we're continuously naysayers etc. - so why should they have to put up with us, for example?

No, they've invested in us. They want their money back like all good business people. We're kicking and screaming and refusing, but they'll get it back.

carveone

crash_000 wrote: »

We might as well leave. From the EU's point of view at the moment we don't really bring much of the ideals of cooperation to the table, we're continuously naysayers etc. - so why should they have to put up with us, for example?

We can't leave them. I wonder can they leave us? The Lisbon treaty will be ratified by 26 out of 27 countries leading to a lot of talk on the radio at the moment about a two speed EU. Must go find out what on earth that means!

I turned off the radio after some guy said that the Irish people were in a bad humour and that's why they voted no.

eoin2nc

Rb wrote: »

And what does that matter? Are we leaving the EU? No, no we're not.

The low taxes attracted the companies here, if we lose them it'll be as a result of
A: A hike in taxes
B: A drop in taxes in another country where the cost of labour is a lot lower than here.

They're not going anywhere as a result of today, we're not leaving Europe as a result of today.

As I said previously, you can be Pro-EU and Anti-Treaty, do you understand that?

Yes I know you can be Pro-EU and Anti-Treaty, but from your post you said that any loses incurred if we left the EU could be made back from the fishing industry.

I was disagreeing with that point. Your right the rejection of the Treaty isnt going to cause any business to leave, for now at least

kevteljeur

DeVore wrote: »

One thing that annoyed me throughout this and other EU votes is this idea that we owe the EU for our economic upswing in the 90's and after.

The fact is that up until just about the year I graduated everyone simply emigrated and went to London, Berlin, Boston or Sydney. The period around when I left college (1991) marked a change in that trend and I found my generation (and I) had decided to stick around and work here.
Companies like Baltimore, Iona, Trintech all popped up, we had more entrepreneurs then any other country in Europe.

We were a generation beaten in school and driven through an unreconstructed Leaving Cert system which honed a certain amount of dog eat doggedness due to an uncompromisingly brutal points system.

People stayed and worked and put their finances on the line to build something here. It didnt arrive by UPS from Brussels one day you know.

I dont doubt that the EU has been good to Ireland but its insulting to say that they were the primary people behind our growth.

DeV.

Sure, it didn't all come from them; good timing, a well-educated and well-trained workforce which spoke English as a first language was a huge selling point. But they did pump a lot of money into infrastructure and so allow the government to cut taxes in every way, especially to business and foreign investors (by paying for things that, ideally, the Irish state could have invested more money into).

I believe that this is one of the things the EU wants to put a stop to; undercutting tax rates in other countries in order to be more competitive. The dreaded harmonisation, which I'm very much in favour of.

eoin2nc

DeVore wrote: »

One thing that annoyed me throughout this and other EU votes is this idea that we owe the EU for our economic upswing in the 90's and after.

The fact is that up until just about the year I graduated everyone simply emigrated and went to London, Berlin, Boston or Sydney. The period around when I left college (1991) marked a change in that trend and I found my generation (and I) had decided to stick around and work here.
Companies like Baltimore, Iona, Trintech all popped up, we had more entrepreneurs then any other country in Europe.

We were a generation beaten in school and driven through an unreconstructed Leaving Cert system which honed a certain amount of dog eat doggedness due to an uncompromisingly brutal points system.

People stayed and worked and put their finances on the line to build something here. It didnt arrive by UPS from Brussels one day you know.

I dont doubt that the EU has been good to Ireland but its insulting to say that they were the primary people behind our growth.

DeV.

So the economic growth had nothing to do with the billions the EU gave us to modernise our infrastructure? Would all the multinational, agruably the main reason for the economic growth, moved here if it wasnt for the access we have to the huge EU markets?


Edit kevteljeur seems to have beaten me to the punch:)

minidazzler

DeVore wrote: »

I dont doubt that the EU has been good to Ireland but its insulting to say that they were the primary people behind our growth.

I have to disagree here, The EU I feel has been the main driving force behind our economy. Sure the Fact that some of our smart people stayed helped alot. However, The EU are the Primary people behind our Growth. and we do Oe them Big Time.

I am only 19 but I look at pictures of our Time before The EU gave us Money and the Time Before we even went near the EU. And The Country went from ****e>Better and with money.

It is a Joke to think that a few Entrepreneurs shaped Ireland into what it is now. Of course they helped but not even nearly as much as the EU.

jor el

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Now that the Irish people had the courage to reject the Treaty should we leave the EU and become an Independent country again?
I think it is. Taking orders from other countrys is not something any patriot should support.

No. If something isn't working properly, you try to fix it before walking away. I believe we were right to vote down Lisbon (if that will be the final outcome), as I think there were far too many issues with it. Not to mention that no one else in Europe was given an opportunity to vote on it. They need to learn from this, fix what's wrong, address the issues, and start again.

The politicians of Europe may well be annoyed by this, but there'll be a lot of citizens happy with Ireland's choice.

Solair

Well, the EU put in about €70 billion in direct transfers to build out infrastructure. Yes, there were other factors, but it was a huge kick start for the economy to be able to get some of those basic items built.

Our membership of the EU single market meant it was possible for us to attract investment into the country. Why would any US or other multinational want to invest in Ireland if it were simply a little island with a market of 4 million ? They come here because it's a way of accessing the vast EU market and it's got a compeditive rate of corporation tax, pro-business attitudes, educated population with appropriate skills and it speaks English.

If we left, we'd be back to the days of de Valera and you can't really live off small scale agriculture and dancing at the cross roads.
We'd be back to mass emmigration and plunging living standards again.
Even in the days of de Velera we had relatively easy access to the UK market, leaving the EU could even substantially alter that arrangement thus putting us in an even worse position than we in in the 1960s!

Ireland remains a bridge between the US and the EU, that's where our economic strenght lies. Without the EU, we're screwed, without the good relationship with the US we're screwed. We're in a very unique position.


There may be some problems with the Lisbon Treaty, but I seriously don't think that Ireland has suddenly gone totally eurosceptic. They're just rejecting the Lisbon Treaty, not the EU!

PrivateEye

Kick Ireland Out! The selfish bastards!
Kick France Out! How dare they!
Kick the Dutch Out! bloody communists!
Kick all the Brits out! the cheek of them, staging such a protest in the parliment looking for a vote!
Find all the Europeans leaving "That you Ireland" messages over on politcs.ie, and hang them from lamposts.

MAKE THE IRISH VOTE AGAIN,
WITH TWO YES BOXES.

European Democracy is it?

kevteljeur

This whole 'vote no on principle, because no-one else got a vote' thing bothers me a lot. The decisions weren't made by some dictator somewhere, they were made by governments in every country. Who, if I get how this system works correctly, were elected by their people, right?

Long-winded way of saying, it's a democratic decision for every country.

Rb

minidazzler wrote: »

I have to disagree here, The EU I feel has been the main driving force behind our economy. Sure the Fact that some of our smart people stayed helped alot. However, The EU are the Primary people behind our Growth. and we do Oe them Big Time.

I am only 19 but I look at pictures of our Time before The EU gave us Money and the Time Before we even went near the EU. And The Country went from ****e>Better and with money.

It is a Joke to think that a few Entrepreneurs shaped Ireland into what it is now. Of course they helped but not even nearly as much as the EU.

So are implying that we should just say Yes to everything they propose, given that you feel we owe them so much?

Mr.Nice Guy

kevteljeur wrote: »

This whole 'vote no on principle, because no-one else got a vote' thing bothers me a lot. The decisions weren't made by some dictator somewhere, they were made by governments in every country. Who, if I get how this system works correctly, were elected by their people, right?

Long-winded way of saying, it's a democratic decision for every country.

Let's recap here...

Dutch and French people reject the EU constitution which leads to...

The EU changing the name of the document to the Lisbon Treaty and offering only miniscule changes which leads to...

The Dutch and French parliaments ratifying the Lisbon Treaty.

If you think that's democratic you need your head examined.

Solair

kevteljeur wrote: »

This whole 'vote no on principle, because no-one else got a vote' thing bothers me a lot. The decisions weren't made by some dictator somewhere, they were made by governments in every country. Who, if I get how this system works correctly, were elected by their people, right?

Long-winded way of saying, it's a democratic decision for every country.

Not to mention that the Irish Government chaired most of the negociations!

VoidStarNull

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

What nonsense. The people of Europe who were denied a chance to exercise democracy will be thrilled with this vote. Cooperation must have the support of the people. We are not here for their benefit, they are there for our benefit. That's democracy.

Speaking as a YES voter, I totally accept the decision of the people to vote NO. Even if some of them hadn't a clue what was in the Treaty.

BTW Mr. Nice Guy, your signature is slightly inaccurate. Valery Giscard d'Estaing was not an author of the Lisbon treaty. He was a critic of it, believing that it was inferior to the Consitution which he wrote.

Here's a corrected version.

"Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly". - Valéry Giscard d’Estaing, former French President and critic of the Lisbon Treaty commenting on the document.