Should we leave the EU?

O'Morris

oscarBravo wrote: »

Right back atcha.

What exactly is your point? Are you saying that because the conditions of withdrawal are not written down that we therefore can't leave the union?

As a sovereign country we can withdraw our membership of any international organisation we choose to. If there are rules attached to that withdrawal then we should abide by those rules.

kippy

O'Morris wrote: »

What exactly is your point? Are you saying that because the conditions of withdrawal are not written down that we therefore can't leave the union?

As a sovereign country we can withdraw our membership of any international organisation we choose to. If there are rules attached to that withdrawal then we should abide by those rules.

What benefits do you forsee for this country and it's people by leaving the EU if such a thing were possible?

kippy

Actually, most of the questions posed here have been posed in and for the UK before.
See here:
http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&q=Leave+the+EU&btnG=Search&meta=

turgon

Should we leave the EU? No.

Biro

kevteljeur wrote: »

"might lose a bit of money" is a bit of an understatement. More than a few people like to overlook that Ireland's temporary prosperity owes more than a little to our friends over on the continent. They subsidised it. They helped to channel it in the right directions so that Ireland became a good place in which to do business. Now, what you're suggesting is that if Ireland is outside the EU, no longer has access to those markets, that foreign investment has a reason to stay here and not go to Eastern European countries, which are now far more competitive than Ireland. The competitive advantage that Ireland used to have, of a very cheap, well-educated workforce, is gone.

You're clearly not paying a mortgage, because if you were then like many people here you would fear a wage drop that put you in a position of earning less than half your outgoings, and that's what would happen if Ireland left Europe. And it would happen within weeks.

A lot of our prosperity is thanks to our low corp tax rates. They were introduced back in the 80's. American multinationals invested here, provided good employment, money was made, houses were bought, building industry was fed, that practically was the economy. Ironically, some large EU countries want us to bring our corp tax in line with the rest of Europe, negating our dwindling advantage over cheaper countries.
Whether a Yes or No in the treaty would change this one way or another is a different topic. Leaving the EU is a different topic to the Treaty.
Leaving the EU is bad.

banchang

gordon_gekko wrote: »

one myth that really needs knocking on the head is that sinn fein are pro europe , sinn fein would like to make ireland a cuba without the sun or cool american cars from the 1950,s

Absolutely brilliant - LOL

Biro

kevteljeur wrote: »

Because of the fish, Scum Lord. They're ours, and we're going to fight for freedom and for our fish.

Deep down, we'd all rather fish than have comfortable, well-paid desk jobs at Dell, Intel, Motorola, Apple, etc, etc...

I'm thinking a Washington Treaty might serve us better!

banchang

Leaving the EU would be an appalling vista with consequences no-one can possibly imagine in terms of impact on our economy. There is no precedent for this, but one thing is certain, it would be immensely damaging

The EU 25 accounted for 46% of Irish exports in 2006 compared to 21% in
1973.

If we stand outside the EU we rank alongside the Brazilians & Argentinians, the Russians & the Chinese, whose imports the EU are more & more going to constrain in order to ensure EU products are first choice to service the EU internal market.

I think we should rapidly forget this idea.

Otherwise last one out pls turn off the lights.

O'Morris

kippy wrote: »

What benefits do you forsee for this country and it's people by leaving the EU if such a thing were possible?

I can't really think of any tangible economic benefits to leaving. But I can't think of any serious economic problems likely to result from it either. We could still work out some arrangement whereby we would still have access to the same markets we currently have.

banchang wrote:

There is no precedent for this, but one thing is certain, it would be immensely damaging

Oh come now, isn't that a bit over the top? How can you be so certain it would be immensely damaging?

The EU 25 accounted for 46% of Irish exports in 2006 compared to 21% in 1973.

And which country took most of the rest of our exports in 1973? Was it not that country to our east that we successfully achieved independence from 50 years earlier?

Why can't we have the mutually beneficial relationship with the EU post-secession that we had with Britain after we seceded from the union with them?

If we stand outside the EU we rank alongside the Brazilians & Argentinians, the Russians & the Chinese, whose imports the EU are more & more going to constrain in order to ensure EU products are first choice to service the EU internal market.

Why would we rank alongside the Brazilians or the Russians when we could just as easily rank ourselves alongside the Norwegians or the Icelandics?

eoin2nc

O'Morris wrote: »

I can't really think of any tangible economic benefits to leaving. But I can't think of any serious economic problems likely to result from it either. We could still work out some arrangement whereby we would still have access to the same markets we currently have.




Oh come now, isn't that a bit over the top? How can you be so certain it would be immensely damaging?


And which country took most of the rest of our exports in 1973? Was it not that country to our east that we successfully achieved independence from 50 years earlier?

Why can't we have the mutually beneficial relationship with the EU post-secession that we had with Britain after we seceded from the union with them?


Why would we rank alongside the Brazilians or the Russians when we could just as easily rank ourselves alongside the Norwegians or the Icelandics?

Are you serious?:rolleyes: Please tell me this is a wind-up?

'Isnt that a bit over the top' Do you know how many people are employed bt the big multinationals, eg Dell,Intel,Microsoft,Wyheth,Pizer? All these companies would up and leave if Ireland ever left the EU. Now where would these thousands of workers find work?


Now that would be 'immensely damaging'

Moriarty

RB banned for breaching the charter.

/edit: ban removed.

FineFinn

eoin2nc wrote: »

Are you serious?:rolleyes: Please tell me this is a wind-up?

'Isnt that a bit over the top' Do you know how many people are employed bt the big multinationals, eg Dell,Intel,Microsoft,Wyheth,Pizer? All these companies would up and leave if Ireland ever left the EU. Now where would these thousands of workers find work?


Now that would be 'immensely damaging'

Well said.

banchang

O'Morris wrote: »

We could still work out some arrangement whereby we would still have access to the same markets we currently have.?

Because
-EU have trade rules which constrain imports, & so it is 100% certain that we would not be able to send the current 46% of our exports into the EU, if we were outside it. No question about this. This means significant job losses.
- EU would be delighted they dont have to subsidise Irish farmers anymore, & without these subsidies, we would a) be uncompetitive & subsequently b) bankrupt the farming community. This means significant job losses (but much bigger farms!)

O'Morris wrote: »

Why can't we have the mutually beneficial relationship with the EU post-secession that we had with Britain after we seceded from the union with them?

Interesting point. However, our trade with UK was 55% of total in 1973, & is 17% now. So much for mutually beneficial. It would seem that dealing with UK became less attractive after we joiined the EEC, & the benefit of access to the wider market (mirrored by significant growth in our economy since then) highlights the fact that it would be a step back in time to leave the EU.

O'Morris wrote: »

Why would we rank alongside the Brazilians or the Russians when we could just as easily rank ourselves alongside the Norwegians or the Icelandics?

Another interesting point. But you can't compare us to the Norwegians, as they have less than zero dependency on the EU, due to the oodles of oil they have. I won't compare to Iceland for obvious reasons. We would indeed be more like the Brazilians & the Argentinians trying to find a home for all the beef we produce, & that would not be good.

SuperSean11

Pal wrote: »

in before the lock

Why would this thread be locked

DublinWriter

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Now that the Irish people had the courage to reject the Treaty should we leave the EU and become an Independent country again?
I think it is. Taking orders from other countrys is not something any patriot should support.

Yes, personally I miss those comely maidens dancing at the crossroads.

Screw it, let's go the whole hog and hand the place back to the UK tomorrow with a note attached with the word "Sorry!" written on it.

sink

I was just watching a debate on France 24 between different think tanks they all seem to agree that either Ireland hold another referendum or we negotiate a different sort of relationship with the EU, something less than full membership. Similar view were expressed on CNN.

All across Europe leaders are saying that they will carry on ratifying the treaty. I believe if it passes in Britain all other 26 states will have ratified the treaty and Ireland will be completely isolated. This is looking pretty dire, even worse than I had expected. We should know more after the meeting of the European council next week. In my opinion we might no be a full member of the EU at some point in the near future. :eek:

KnifeWRENCH

No, Ireland should definitely not leave the EU. It has benefitted us enormously.
Rejection of the Lisbon Treaty is not a rejection of the European Union.

claudiog

No, definitely. The Eire should not leave the EU!
Are you kidding?
If you leave, who will save us from the next t(h)reaty??

Jocking apart, here in Venetia (and in Italy) there are several persons that are thanking you and drinking to your health! (Is this expression understood?)

Here is an early communicate from our party's website: www.pnveneto.org

Cow Moolester

I'm pretty sure the OP is too young to understand the implications of leaving the EU. (Granted I'm only 15 but I got 92% in my Business mocks )

First of all, the EU headquarters of MNC's all locate in Ireland. IE-Apple, Microsoft, Ebay, Google etc.
If we leave then we will lose these assets.

Secondly, The EU accounted for €56075.2 million of Irish exports in 2007 compared to €32495.8 million from the rest of the world. Source CSO.IE

Of course we could still maintain links with some countries like Britain but we would see nothing near the income we receive at the moment from exports to EU countries.
On the same point, we would have to revert to the punt which would be a significantly weaker currency compared to the Euro which would mean it would cost way more to import the level of goods we are importing at the moment. This wouldn't be the best thing for Ireland now would it considering unemployment is going up and our future is uncertain at the moment.

Thirdly, to whoever said we could be like Norway or Iceland is very wrong. Both of those countries have huge assets. Iceland has only a population of 307,000 to support with huge fish stocks to support them. Norway is a major oil exporter and financially doesn't need Europe.
Ireland on the other hand doesn't exactly have anything too special. Cod and fish stocks have declined around Ireland and fishing exports in 2007 only accounted for 0.001% of our total exports (Source CSO.IE Page 4). We have farming but as a developed country we have focused more on the Tertiary sector and nobody would like to go back to the days of families having to work on farms all their life.


Thats my 2 cents

KnifeWRENCH

claudiog wrote:

Jocking apart, here in Venetia (and in Italy) there are several persons that are thanking you and drinking to your health! (Is this expression understood?)

Yes, I think you will find the Irish know that expression rather well.
Cheers!

banchang

Like I said, Cow

gordon_gekko

square_igloo wrote: »

No, Ireland should definitely not leave the EU. It has benefitted us enormously.
Rejection of the Lisbon Treaty is not a rejection of the European Union.

are your finished parrotting sinn fein now because there bogus line on how they reject lisbon but support europe rings hollow , the saying if it quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck , it must be a duck springs to mind
nothing sinn fein have ever done suggests they support europe , as i said in other threads , sinn fein would like to see ireland become the cuba of the north atlantic

KnifeWRENCH

gordon_gekko wrote: »

are your finished parrotting sinn fein now because there bogus line on how they reject lisbon but support europe rings hollow , the saying if it quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck , it must be a duck springs to mind
nothing sinn fein have ever done suggests they support europe , as i said in other threads , sinn fein would like to see ireland become the cuba of the north atlantic

I was not parrotting Sinn Fein, in fact I did not even mention Sinn Fein in the post that you quoted.
I am not anti-Europe, but there were aspects of the Lisbon Treaty which I did not agree with so I voted No. I believe I'm allowed to do that without silly accusations that I'm a Euroskeptic.

claudiog

square_igloo wrote: »

Yes, I think you will find the Irish know that expression rather well.
Cheers!

Yes! Cheers!

glaston

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

should we leave the EU

Yes Kev please do, may I suggest somewhere in the southern hemisphere.

Call Me Jimmy

sink wrote: »

I was just watching a debate on France 24 between different think tanks they all seem to agree that either Ireland hold another referendum or we negotiate a different sort of relationship with the EU, something less than full membership. Similar view were expressed on CNN.

All across Europe leaders are saying that they will carry on ratifying the treaty. I believe if it passes in Britain all other 26 states will have ratified the treaty and Ireland will be completely isolated. This is looking pretty dire, even worse than I had expected. We should know more after the meeting of the European council next week. In my opinion we might no be a full member of the EU at some point in the near future. :eek:

This is something that I agree is worrying because all along I didn't see what alternative to a Yes vote there was that meant we would have the same relationship with Europe. Of course they can't force Lisbon on us but they can rightly say, "you don't want to move on, the rest of us do so we are free to move on and we will just have to change the way we work with you".

The argument that a No vote means Europe will work as it always has implies that the others will just sit around and do nothing. Who is to say they don't want to move on without us fully involved?

turgon

sink wrote: »

I was just watching a debate on France 24 between different think tanks they all seem to agree that either Ireland hold another referendum or we negotiate a different sort of relationship with the EU, something less than full membership. Similar view were expressed on CNN.

All across Europe leaders are saying that they will carry on ratifying the treaty. I believe if it passes in Britain all other 26 states will have ratified the treaty and Ireland will be completely isolated. This is looking pretty dire, even worse than I had expected. We should know more after the meeting of the European council next week. In my opinion we might no be a full member of the EU at some point in the near future. :eek:

Now I know we have never really agreed sink, but really why would we want to be in a union that discards democracy as a burden (like the kind advocated as you say on CNN and France 24). Isnt that what the whole history of Ireland is about - fighting for rights?

BMH

turgon wrote: »

Now I know we have never really agreed sink, but really why would we want to be in a union that discards democracy as a burden (like the kind advocated as you say on CNN and France 24). Isnt that what the whole history of Ireland is about - fighting for rights?

I don't understand the argument that this move would be undemocratic. If anything, 1v26 is undemocratic.

Call Me Jimmy

turgon wrote: »

Now I know we have never really agreed sink, but really why would we want to be in a union that discards democracy as a burden (like the kind advocated as you say on CNN and France 24). Isnt that what the whole history of Ireland is about - fighting for rights?

How do you see the rest of the countries continuing to ratify as discarding democracy as a burden?

Darragh29

sink wrote: »

I was just watching a debate on France 24 between different think tanks they all seem to agree that either Ireland hold another referendum or we negotiate a different sort of relationship with the EU, something less than full membership. Similar view were expressed on CNN.

All across Europe leaders are saying that they will carry on ratifying the treaty. I believe if it passes in Britain all other 26 states will have ratified the treaty and Ireland will be completely isolated. This is looking pretty dire, even worse than I had expected. We should know more after the meeting of the European council next week. In my opinion we might no be a full member of the EU at some point in the near future. :eek:

Good, let them all carry on ratifying what they like. The fact that they continue to so bo even though this treaty is a dead duck is proof that the no side were not dreaming this up when they felt that the EU was a non democratic monster. I personally think that there is a very obvious correlation between the closer we have become to the EU in recent years and the way in which our society has basically fallen apart at the same time. We have become innordinately selfish, intolerant, unbelievably rude and upety as a country, and the closer we have become to the EU, the worse we have become. I don't know why this has happened but there would appear on the face of it to be a connection between the two. I'd be happy to be out of Europe.