Should we leave the EU?

turgon

BMH wrote: »

I don't understand the argument that this move would be undemocratic. If anything, 1v26 is undemocratic.

1 referendum (1,600,000 people) vs 26 parliaments (max 26,000) = very democratic

Im just saying that if the EU discard the Irish vote in some way - either by forcing a new vote or by creating a two speed Europe - then would clearly be saying that they are undemocratic, and would be willing to dodge democracy because they know better. If this so, why would we want to be in such a undemocratic union?

eoin2nc

Darragh29 wrote: »

Good, let them all carry on ratifying what they like. The fact that they continue to so bo even though this treaty is a dead duck is proof that the no side were not dreaming this up when they felt that the EU was a non democratic monster. I personally think that there is a very obvious correlation between the closer we have become to the EU in recent years and the way in which our society has basically fallen apart at the same time. We have become innordinately selfish, intolerant, unbelievably rude and upety as a country, and the closer we have become to the EU, the worse we have become. I don't know why this has happened but there would appear on the face of it to be a connection between the two. I'd be happy to be out of Europe.

Oh yes lets leave the EU. Let all the multinational leave. But hey genius, now where would the thousands of unemployed people find work. Answer me that.


The attitude of some people in this country

Cow Moolester

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

This is something that I agree is worrying because all along I didn't see what alternative to a Yes vote there was that meant we would have the same relationship with Europe. Of course they can't force Lisbon on us but they can rightly say, "you don't want to move on, the rest of us do so we are free to move on and we will just have to change the way we work with you".

The argument that a No vote means Europe will work as it always has implies that the others will just sit around and do nothing. Who is to say they don't want to move on without us fully involved?

I completely agree with you. We voted no so that means the treaty can't be ratified here but who are we to stop the other 26 countries who are happy with the treaty and want to continue with it? The thought that a country of 4 million out of 500 million can hold up the progression of nearly a whol continent is ridiculous.

In reality though, the treaty is dead at the moment. Without full ratification from all 27 states it can't pass as it needs unanimity. So Ireland will have to hold another referendum with re-negotiated opt-outs and a more informal campaign to get a yes.

Pride Fighter

People who are saying we will lose all our jobs by leaving the EU should state how would we lose these jobs. We will remain in the European Economic Area, like Switzerland, Norway, Iceland and Leichtenstein and as a result we would trade freely with Europe. In fact we could totally reinvigorate our economy by leaving the EU by having a very low corporate tax, even lower than our present one.
Personally I dont want us to leave the EU, we are good for each other. But I voted no on issues of Neutrality and Fiscal matters. I would be willing to vote yes if we exchanged our veto on Justice for one on taxation and Neutrality as I was not certain by my research that we had a veto on either tax or neutrality.

BMH

turgon wrote: »

1 referendum (1,600,000 people) vs 26 parliaments (max 26,000) = very democratic

Im just saying that if the EU discard the Irish vote in some way - either by forcing a new vote or by creating a two speed Europe - then would clearly be saying that they are undemocratic, and would be willing to dodge democracy because they know better. If this so, why would we want to be in such a undemocratic union?

Why is a two-speed Europe undemocratic? It's what we asked for.
Also, those 26 parliaments were representative of the people. This issue has come up over and over, and I've yet to hear a way for the EU to force governments into holding referenda.
Finally, our referendum didn't vote against the treaty, but rather prevented the government from ratifying it, so really it's one parliament vs 26. Semantics, but semantics seems to be just as important in arguing that the parliament elected by the people doesn't represent them.

BMH

Pride Fighter wrote: »

I would be willing to vote yes if we exchanged our veto on Justice for one on taxation and Neutrality as I was not certain by my research that we had a veto on either tax or neutrality.

If it's any use to you, we did.

kevteljeur

eoin2nc wrote: »

Oh yes lets leave the EU. Let all the multinational leave. But hey genius, now where would the thousands of unemployed people find work. Answer me that.


The attitude of some people in this country

Oh, that's easy. The UK, like last time. Except... O noes! The US has decided we're not quiet as welcome as last time around! And Canada! And Australia! And people have slowed down on trying to learn the languages of competing countries - so it'll be a little harder to emigrate.

And of course, the Government's crafty strategy of tying irish citizens down with massive mortgages, which was a clever move, in hindsight. Smart insurance policy.

BMH wrote: »

Why is a two-speed Europe undemocratic? It's what we asked for.
Also, those 26 parliaments were representative of the people. This issue has come up over and over, and I've yet to hear a way for the EU to force governments into holding referenda.
Finally, our referendum didn't vote against the treaty, but rather prevented the government from ratifying it, so really it's one parliament vs 26. Semantics, but semantics seems to be just as important in arguing that the parliament elected by the people doesn't represent them.

I keep saying it too, but aparently I'm missing something, and Ireland is the only democracy in Europe... This might come as something of surprise to the oppressed people of the other 26 countries.

Pride Fighter

BMH wrote: »

If it's any use to you, we did.

I did not see anything that stated we did. How can the EU control our finances without controlling our tax rates? The words 'mutual defence' and NATO are smeared all over the treaty, why cant the EU just abandon this ridiculous nonsense. What is the UN for?
It is a democratic treaty and would do good thing in revamping who Europe works, but what is the point in the charter of fundamental rights if Cowen does not want to introduce it. The EU can shove its 'mutual defence' up its arse.

BMH

Pride Fighter wrote: »

I did not see anything that stated we did. How can the EU control our finances without controlling our tax rates?

We retain a veto over direct taxation.

The words 'mutual defence' and NATO are smeared all over the treaty, why cant the EU just abandon this ridiculous nonsense. What is the UN for?
It is a democratic treaty and would do good thing in revamping who Europe works, but what is the point in the charter of fundamental rights if Cowen does not want to introduce it. The EU can shove its 'mutual defence' up its arse.

As far as I can tell, if we signed Lisbon, the only obligation we would have to a country attacked by another nation would be fulfilled in sending a fireman. I might be wrong on this, I'll look around for a Scofflaw post on this later. I know we'd never have to deploy anywhere foreign without going through our triple-lock though.
The common defense was pushed for by the bigger countries. They're outspending their budgets at the moment, and need to cut down on defense spending, so they want to cut down on their army and see it replaced by an EU defense force that would cost them much less. They also want to pool technology funding to increase efficiency.

is_that_so

Darragh29 wrote: »

Good, let them all carry on ratifying what they like. The fact that they continue to so bo even though this treaty is a dead duck is proof that the no side were not dreaming this up when they felt that the EU was a non democratic monster. I personally think that there is a very obvious correlation between the closer we have become to the EU in recent years and the way in which our society has basically fallen apart at the same time. We have become innordinately selfish, intolerant, unbelievably rude and upety as a country, and the closer we have become to the EU, the worse we have become. I don't know why this has happened but there would appear on the face of it to be a connection between the two. I'd be happy to be out of Europe.

I find myself agreeing with a lot of what you say about us but I don't think it is Europe that has caused this. Leaving Europe would not make any difference, I think there is a certain part of the Irish psyche that is incapable of graciousness when it comes to our our wealth. Regrettably we are far more influenced by the "crassness" of our closest neighbour and the worst excesses of our transatlantic cousin. All we seem to do is ape them in the worst possible manner. What Germany or France or anyone else are up to has no effect on us.

kevteljeur

There are, unfortunately, some people who see the '80s through rose-tinted glasses, and refuse to see the recession happening right now. It wasn't just about Big Hair and crap clothes. If the World Bank had taken matters out of Ireland's hands entirely back then in order to make sure Ireland made good on it's loans - would that have been democratic?

*sigh* Had to get that off my chest.

mel_nibot

I definitely do not agree that we should leave Europe and it's competely so off the topic of what the Lisbon Treaty is about.
Yes Europe has been good for Ireland but we shouldnt feel like we owe them anything.
The government never wanted Ireland to vote on this treaty and the only reason it was put to a vote was because of a law passed in the 80's (Thank God)
The EU and the Irish government were too cocky in their whole approach to this in my opinion. The poster campaigns on both sides were pretty vague to say the least. It was up to us to go out and do the research on this treaty to fully understand it before voting on it which i truly believe most of us did.

I've read all the literature and looked up all the sites and it wasnt the no campaigners that swayed me to vote no.

According to the documentation, if the treaty wasn't passed by all 27 states then it was dead in the water and therefore Ireland would stay the same and would not be pushed aside. However, when I was almost convinced on Yes i read about a meeting held by eu members to discuss wether or not to go ahead with it and ignore irelands outcome!!!!

Democratic????????????????
I think not!

titan18

I know most of the No voters on this forum have probably looked up the treaty and are voting No for their own reasons,and I respect that.But it's a fact and dont deny it that most of the voters out there on the Yes and No side,mostly No side,voted with no clue what they were voting on.I cant personally see why they didnt know as there was plenty of information on this contrary to everybody's opinion.ANybody I've talked to has voted No because tehy didnt understand and just said they wouldnt sign a contract if they didnt understand it.

But to talk about leaving the EU is ridiculous.It would cost us too much.If the other member states ratified the treaty,which they are entitled to do without a referendum,as they have all been elected by the people,we might be screwed.Its technically undemocratic but democracy hasnt been alive for ages.The people vote but many of them have no intelligence and are like sheep.It's true so dont say it isnt.

I voted Yes,as I agree with all aspects of the treaty.I'm also favour of us losing our neutrality as I believe its a fancy way of saying we're cowardly

mel_nibot

titan18 wrote: »

The people vote but many of them have no intelligence and are like sheep.It's true so dont say it isnt.

This is exactly my point that the government were too cocky. They believe that if they put vote yes for a better europe on as many posters as they can, that people will believe them. Its insulting the Irish nations intelligence to believe they would fall for such bull!!

Obviously they were proven wrong. Of course the Irish voters are intelligent! Its shocking for you to state otherwise!
I believe that for the most part, the people who didnt understand it went to the trouble of finding out about it and came to the conclusion that something just didnt add up. There has been something sly and sinister about this whole thing from the start.

And for the record, quite a number of people that voted yes didnt understand it either but voted yes simply because they were afraid of what might happen if they didnt!

kevteljeur

mel_nibot wrote: »

I definitely do not agree that we should leave Europe and it's competely so off the topic of what the Lisbon Treaty is about.
Yes Europe has been good for Ireland but we shouldnt feel like we owe them anything.

Why not? If someone helps you out (Ireland has until recently been a net recipient of EU aid - contrast that with Slovenia, which joined the EU as a net contributor), then in turn you help them out when they ask for it. In this case, they asked and we said no.

mel_nibot wrote: »

According to the documentation, if the treaty wasn't passed by all 27 states then it was dead in the water and therefore Ireland would stay the same and would not be pushed aside. However, when I was almost convinced on Yes i read about a meeting held by eu members to discuss wether or not to go ahead with it and ignore irelands outcome!!!!

Democratic????????????????
I think not!

I suspect that a lot of people are confusing democracy with unanimity. They are far from the same thing. The other 26 states aren't threatening Ireland with an imposition of change, rather they are considering changing the status quo for them but not for Ireland. There's nothing undemocratic about that. Conversely, 850,000 people stalling change for the rest of Europe is practically a joke.

Irish and Proud

sink wrote: »

I was just watching a debate on France 24 between different think tanks they all seem to agree that either Ireland hold another referendum or we negotiate a different sort of relationship with the EU, something less than full membership. Similar view were expressed on CNN.

All across Europe leaders are saying that they will carry on ratifying the treaty. I believe if it passes in Britain all other 26 states will have ratified the treaty and Ireland will be completely isolated. This is looking pretty dire, even worse than I had expected. We should know more after the meeting of the European council next week. In my opinion we might no be a full member of the EU at some point in the near future. :eek:

AFAIK, for Ireland, the EU will have to remain as is - an economic union. However, I don't see anything stopping the other 26 countries from forming their own political union thereby leaving Ireland outside such a new super-state, but inside the EU (would still have to exist as was agreed up to the Nice Treaty). If the said super-state decided to levy import taxes etc against Ireland, it would surely be in breach of EU competition rules which the super-state (through inherited undertakings) would still be signed up to.

Just guessing, but in any case we'll see what happens...

mel_nibot

kevteljeur wrote: »

I suspect that a lot of people are confusing democracy with unanimity.


Conversely, 850,000 people stalling change for the rest of Europe is practically a joke.

No Democracy is definitely the word i'm looking for thanks!!

The fact that no other country got to vote on this is more of a joke regardless of what their verdict may have been. And the fact that they are willing to now change the treaty (after the referendum) to allow them to go ahead with it just proves that our vote doesnt actually count to Europe at all!

There should always have been a solution written into it in the event of a country rejecting it instead of just presuming that everyone would love it

titan18

mel_nibot wrote: »

This is exactly my point that the government were too cocky. They believe that if they put vote yes for a better europe on as many posters as they can, that people will believe them. Its insulting the Irish nations intelligence to believe they would fall for such bull!!

Obviously they were proven wrong. Of course the Irish voters are intelligent! Its shocking for you to state otherwise!
I believe that for the most part, the people who didnt understand it went to the trouble of finding out about it and came to the conclusion that something just didnt add up. There has been something sly and sinister about this whole thing from the start.

And for the record, quite a number of people that voted yes didnt understand it either but voted yes simply because they were afraid of what might happen if they didnt!

They fell for it when they voted FF into power again.No,I dont think many people went to the bother of actually finding out what they were voting on.I know loads of people who didnt.

Also,you say that the Yes side were insulting people's intelligence by putting out posters.What were the No side doing.

Ok,you say that there were a number of people who voted yes as they were afraid of what might happen if they didnt,I'd call those people sheep,and you've admitted that the Irish voters are unintelligent.Most of them are to be honest.

irishbucsfan

Refusing this treaty will slowly destroy this economy.

If you can't see that then you've been blinded by the scare tactics and scare mongering of just ONE political party. I find it unbelievable to think that we could vote in all of these politicians and trust them with running the country, but when it comes to a referendum like this all of a sudden everyone turns republican and suddenly believes that all these politicians are wrong.

By refusing this treaty we have only serviced to distance ourselves from the EU. Why the hell should any of these huge multi-nationals stick around in Ireland? We're not a gateway to the EU any more, we're just a nation where 750,000 selfish people have held back 400,000,000 in Europe. We won't be able to keep up the 12.5% corp tax, there is no longer any reason to invest in this nation, and oversees investment is what has put us in the place we are now.


I suppose the funny thing is, this time we have nobody to blame but ourselves, the government can only point us in the right direction, if we're blind enough to follow the lead of Sinn Fein then we deserve whats coming to us. You can keep your patriot's Ireland, but with it you have to keep the certain unemployment that it will cause.

Kev_ps3

The arrogance from the Yes side and the EU is breathtaking. They say people who voted no dont have a clue why they did and whats in the Treaty. I know a few people who voted yes and they only reason why they voted yes was because the partys told them to!! Im sure alot of yes voters only voted yes because the main partys told them to.
Also, it looks like the EU will ignore Ireland and push this Treaty through without Ireland, breaking their own rules. They refuse to say the Treaty is dead, so we all know what the means.

Kev_ps3

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Refusing this treaty will slowly destroy this economy.

If you can't see that then you've been blinded by the scare tactics and scare mongering of just ONE political party. I find it unbelievable to think that we could vote in all of these politicians and trust them with running the country, but when it comes to a referendum like this all of a sudden everyone turns republican and suddenly believes that all these politicians are wrong.

By refusing this treaty we have only serviced to distance ourselves from the EU. Why the hell should any of these huge multi-nationals stick around in Ireland? We're not a gateway to the EU any more, we're just a nation where 750,000 selfish people have held back 400,000,000 in Europe. We won't be able to keep up the 12.5% corp tax, there is no longer any reason to invest in this nation, and oversees investment is what has put us in the place we are now.


I suppose the funny thing is, this time we have nobody to blame but ourselves, the government can only point us in the right direction, if we're blind enough to follow the lead of Sinn Fein then we deserve whats coming to us. You can keep your patriot's Ireland, but with it you have to keep the certain unemployment that it will cause.

Rubbish, what a load of scare-mongering nonsense. Like any other country we can take care of ourselves without falling apart. What we need to do is provide more employment to young males who will and are finding it hard to get a good job because of the construction slowdown and the amount of mass immigration into this small country.
I suggest we promote farming to young males and try and get our country farming again, also greatly increace the military. These two could provide massive employment to males and stop mass unemployment.

BMH

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

I suggest we promote farming to young males and try and get our country farming again, also greatly increace the military. These two could provide massive employment to males and stop mass unemployment.

That's not how you solve unemployment.

irish_bob

titan18 wrote: »

I know most of the No voters on this forum have probably looked up the treaty and are voting No for their own reasons,and I respect that.But it's a fact and dont deny it that most of the voters out there on the Yes and No side,mostly No side,voted with no clue what they were voting on.I cant personally see why they didnt know as there was plenty of information on this contrary to everybody's opinion.ANybody I've talked to has voted No because tehy didnt understand and just said they wouldnt sign a contract if they didnt understand it.

But to talk about leaving the EU is ridiculous.It would cost us too much.If the other member states ratified the treaty,which they are entitled to do without a referendum,as they have all been elected by the people,we might be screwed.Its technically undemocratic but democracy hasnt been alive for ages.The people vote but many of them have no intelligence and are like sheep.It's true so dont say it isnt.

I voted Yes,as I agree with all aspects of the treaty.I'm also favour of us losing our neutrality as I believe its a fancy way of saying we're cowardly

i fully agree , i find neutrality to be contemptable

ionix5891

I saw this thread on the front page and was horrified at the title, but I felt even worse when I read thru' all the pages


Some of the people commenting here are unreal, since yesterday i feel ashamed to be irish now i am just angry


Anyways im director of small company with 4 irish employees including myself, our business is with US and EU (primarilly germany and belgium).
The taught of Ireland ending up on the outside of EU is trully horrific to me

Do the people who said "lets bail out of the EU" in this thread have jobs? because if Ireland leaves the EU the **** will really hit the fan! excuse my graphic language



My company (bulk bandwdith services) is already having hard time remaining competitive with dozens of competing companies from China to US and keeping costs down, without the EU i don't think I will be sticking around here for long neither will some of our partners like Google in Dublin, luckily we don't have many hard assets in Ireland so now im thinking worst come to worst me and my family will have to move, and i will have leave the same option to my employees/co-workers/friends



I cant belive Ireland has gone to such a point, I can't believe that the nuts on the far right and the far left (Sinn Fein im pointing at you!) along with their Puppet US military contractors from Libertas (http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0520/1211232308995.html)

are dragging this country back by few decades



i am sorry for a long rant, but i had to let it out after reading this, today is another black day for Ireland

shame on you shortsighted people who want to pull us out of the eu

decies

ionix5891 wrote: »

I saw this thread on the front page and was horrified at the title, but I felt even worse when I read thru' all the pages


Some of the people commenting here are unreal, since yesterday i feel ashamed to be irish now i am just angry


Anyways im director of small company with 4 irish employees including myself, our business is with US and EU (primarilly germany and belgium).
The taught of Ireland ending up on the outside of EU is trully horrific to me

Do the people who said "lets bail out of the EU" in this thread have jobs? because if Ireland leaves the EU the **** will really hit the fan! excuse my graphic language



My company (bulk bandwdith services) is already having hard time remaining competitive with dozens of competing companies from China to US and keeping costs down, without the EU i don't think I will be sticking around here for long neither will some of our partners like Google in Dublin, luckily we don't have many hard assets in Ireland so now im thinking worst come to worst me and my family will have to move, and i will have leave the same option to my employees/co-workers/friends



I cant belive Ireland has gone to such a point, I can't believe that the nuts on the far right and the far left (Sinn Fein im pointing at you!) along with their Puppet US military contractors from Libertas (http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0520/1211232308995.html)

are dragging this country back by few decades



i am sorry for a long rant, but i had to let it out after reading this, today is another black day for Ireland

shame on you shortsighted people who want to pull us out of the eu

Well said sir.I really would love to know what % of the no vote was just a general protest vote against basically anything and nothing to do against europe

banchang

Just read this thread.

'Interested' people confused about what Lisbon means. What did the man in the street make of it all ?

I voted yes, but I totally support the view that if you Dont Know, Vote No.

The reason Lisbon was defeated was because the Government didn't invest enough time to communicate what it means. What arrogance.

What a complete diversion now, when they should be working on the economy, they now have a real problem which is going to occupy all of their time, with all of Europe looking at us. What a shambles.

Shame on the government

banchang

decies wrote: »

I really would love to know what % of the no vote was just a general protest vote against basically anything and nothing to do against europe

Like I said in my last post above, I dont think it was in the main a protest vote

The profile of our demography would not support that.

As I said, I believe it was If you dont know, vote no, & here the government are well & truly accountable

ionix5891

banchang wrote: »

Just read this thread.

'Interested' people confused about what Lisbon means. What did the man in the street make of it all ?

I voted yes, but I totally support the view that if you Dont Know, Vote No.

The reason Lisbon was defeated was because the Government didn't invest enough time to communicate what it means. What arrogance.

What a complete diversion now, when they should be working on the economy, they now have a real problem which is going to occupy all of their time, with all of Europe looking at us. What a shambles.

Shame on the government

I am sick of all these "we weren't spoon-fed" excuses!


THE PEOPLE WERE INFORMED, now whether they listened or just put the spuds in their ears and went lalalalala is different story


I got:
*3 leaflets from neutral referendum commission
*2 from libertossers
*every newspaper had debated this heatedly for last month
*one could now switch on RTE without hearing about lisbon
*there were dozens of threads here on boards


If the people were too lazy to absorb and make a decision on all the information that was floating around, what can i say? doesnt say much about the average irish does it? I found it embarrasing watching BBC last night with some redneck saying he voted NO because he was to thick to understand, the rest of Europe are laughing at us now


ill put this vote in layman's terms then
You take the NO pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the YES pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes.

Kev_ps3 wrote:

I suggest we promote farming to young males and try and get our country farming again, also greatly increace the military. These two could provide massive employment to males and stop mass unemployment.

:rolleyes: oh for crying out loud.. :eek:

i nominate you to go and dig in the muck, would suit people like you right down to the ground

rossie1977

the scaremongering on this thread is unbelievable

For a start US multinationals do not have their EU headquarters in Ireland, they have their european headquarters here (huge difference). The US multinationals primarily moved to Ireland because of the massive devaluation of the Irish punt three times between 1980 and 1993 (an option that has now been lost to us), tax breaks, english speaking workforce, highly educated workforce and the massive setup grants afforded them

Lets take Switzerland as an example; Yahoo are moving their european headquarters there from London; Nissan, Cadbury, Cisco, Ralph Lauren, Ebay (Global administrative headquarters), Hitachi and Philip Morris already have their european headquarters there. Google will follow suit imo as they have justed opened a massive research facility in Zurich. In fact over the next 10-20 years most US/Asian european headquarters will be located in Switzerland because the tax breaks there far exceed anywhere in the EU.

Switzerland are the the EU's third largest goods supplier and second largest customer and 25% of the Swiss workforce are EU citizens

people are under the impression on this thread that the US need the EU when in fact it is completely the opposite in reality, the US do as much business (in fact more) with Singapore and Taiwan than they do with second tier EU nations like Italy, Netherlands and Spain

turgon

banchang wrote: »

Like I said in my last post above, I dont think it was in the main a protest vote

Yes, the no vote was nearly constant across the country - even in areas where protesters are just not present.

ionix5891 makes a good point. The EU is extremely important. Now I know rossie1977 doesn't agree as much - but it certainly isn't worth the risk of leaving!!