Should we leave the EU?

WooPeeA

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Now that the Irish people had the courage to reject the Treaty should we leave the EU and become an Independent country again?
I think it is. Taking orders from other countrys is not something any patriot should support.

1. The first step would be give back all money that EU gave to Ireland for common goals.

Breaking contract = give all investments back. That's the law and nobody will forget that. Too much money was pumped into Ireland to forget it.


2. Irish citizens would require visa to travel to Europe.

That's how it worked years ago.. + working visas. (including UK, that how EU law works, all citizens out of Europe require working permissions)


3. All immigrants would be deported.

As they will need work permissions. Catastrophe for economy and Irish reputation in Europe.


4. Duty of excise tax.

Which means that Irish products will be more expensive aboard and foreign products (most of products in the stores) will be more expensive in Ireland, as they will have to add excise tax to the price.


5. Ireland would be kicked out of EU table.

Nothing to say of what happens in Europe. Ireland is not a self-sufficient State. It depend on Europe. Irish voice, even the little one is very important.


6. Ireland will be out of planned European common defense system.

Ireland will have to protect itself without EU.


My opinion: in the long term today's Ireland would not survive. Leaving European community would means back to the past.

banchang

ionix5891 wrote: »

I am sick of all these "we weren't spoon-fed" excuses!


THE PEOPLE WERE INFORMED, now whether they listened or just put the spuds in their ears and went lalalalala is different story

Anyone with any experience of change management, & who is truly interested in delivering success in a change initiative, would know that you're making a big mistake if you don't look at yourself first, if the argument is so compelling.

You don't say 'they got it wrong' - 'they're idiots' or even 'they put spuds in their ears'.

That's simply denial, & arrogance which has been born out of the Celtic tiger, & importantly, multi-term government.

rossie1977

WooPeeA wrote: »

1. The first step would be give back all money that EU gave to Ireland for common goals.

Breaking contract = give all investments back. That's the law and nobody will forget that. Too much money was pumped into Ireland to forget it.


2. Irish citizens would require visa to travel to Europe.

That's how it worked years ago.. + working visas. (including UK, that how EU law works, all citizens out of Europe require working permissions)


3. All immigrants would be deported.

As they will need work permissions. Catastrophe for economy and Irish reputation in Europe.


4. Duty of excise tax.

Which means that Irish products will be more expensive aboard and foreign products (most of products in the stores) will be more expensive in Ireland, as they will have to add excise tax to the price.


5. Ireland would be kicked out of EU table.

Nothing to say of what happens in Europe. Ireland is not a self-sufficient State. It depend on Europe. Irish voice, even the little one is very important.


6. Ireland will be out of planned European common defense system.

Ireland will have to protect itself without EU.


My opinion: in the long term today's Ireland would not survive. Leaving European community would means back to the past.

more scaremongering i see, what is to stop ireland signing Bilateral Agreements with the EU ala Switzerland e.g.

the Free Trade Agreement of 1972
the Insurance Agreement of 1989
Bilateral Agreements I of 1999
Bilateral Agreements II of 2004

your last point is a joke, if Turkey gain entry to the EU (which they will) every Muslim on earth will be allowed free access to EU countries, that includes every hardcore madman too even if that percentage is tiny

ionix5891

rossie1977 wrote: »

your last point is a joke, if Turkey gain entry to the EU (which they will) every Muslim on earth will be allowed free access to EU countries, that includes every hardcore madman too even if that percentage is tiny

so you are saying Muslims == hardcore madmen terrorists


we really have went backwards (sideways?) if people believe the above



btw Ireland had its share of madmen terrorists up to very recently (they became politicians now: Mr. Paisley and Mr. Adams to name a few) thanks to EU our little regional conflict has became kinda pointless didn't it? theres no "them" or "us" when we are all "we"

rossie1977

ionix5891 wrote: »

so you are saying Muslims == hardcore madmen terrorists


we really have went backwards (sideways?) if people belive the above

did i say that??

one of my best friends is a muslim btw and she is one of the nicest people i have ever met, two families living next door to me are muslim, so i think i know a bit more about them and evangelicals, mormons, jehovah's witnesses (whom i am also friends with) than most

a tiny % of that religion are hardcore that is the sad truth

ionix5891

rossie1977 wrote: »

did i say that??

one of my best friends is a muslim btw and she is one of the nicest people i have ever met, two families living next door to me are muslim, so i think i know a bit more about them and evangelicals, mormons, jehovah's witnesses (whom i am also friends with) than most

a tiny % of that religion are hardcore that is the sad truth

so are a large % of Christians, have you been to the american midwest lately? didnt Bush say that god speaks to him and told him to invade Iraq, now thats scary.

take a look here it makes for funny but sad reading
http://adultthought.ucsd.edu/Culture_War/The_American_Taliban.html



you are being Xenophobic in that original paragraph about Turkey, but its your choice...




my step father is a Muslim btw (not a good one, he doesn't pray and likes eating pork),
im an atheist myself i think religion causes way too many problems and until recently has abused (literally) this country and its people, neither did I appreciate all the brainwashing myself and other schoolchildren were put thru back in the schooldays by the Patrician brothers


but anyways back on topic


saying "they are turkish muslim terrorists" is no better than people few years ago some people saying "they are irish catholic terrorists"

the EU has put an end to alot of that nonsense as its unneded, going back will mean the return of our old divisions since instead concentrating on what we have in common and working with other countries/religions/beliefs to better everyone we will go back to picking on the petty differences and picking spuds...


pulling out of the EU gives us no advantages and alot of disadvantages, thats how I see it


no point comparing us to Switzerland (banking, tax free), Norway (Oil + Gas, Hydroelectricity) or Iceland (Fishing, Thermal Electricity, small population)
Ireland doesn't have many natural resources and most our economy is based on services whose success is based on access to US and EU markets

banchang

ionix5891 wrote: »

instead of picking on the petty differences we should choose to concentrate on what we have in common

Er, the reality is that we don't have a lot in common with Turkey.

Just as we don't have a lot in common with Romania. The changes promised by Romania were simply not made, & it was still pushed through.

http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/05/1344&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en

Simply not accurate.

ionix5891

banchang wrote: »

Er, the reality is that we don't have a lot in common with Turkey.

Just as we don't have a lot in common with Romania. The changes promised by Romania were simply not made, & it was still pushed through.

http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/05/1344&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en

Simply not accurate.

Ironic aint it?

The Lisbon treaty would have made Europe work better

so dont go complaining now that it doesnt work...

marco_polo

rossie1977 wrote: »

did i say that??

one of my best friends is a muslim btw and she is one of the nicest people i have ever met, two families living next door to me are muslim, so i think i know a bit more about them and evangelicals, mormons, jehovah's witnesses (whom i am also friends with) than most

a tiny % of that religion are hardcore that is the sad truth

Ah the good old my friend is <race or creed I have just insulted> line

leninbenjamin

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

I suggest we promote farming to young males and try and get our country farming again, also greatly increace the military. These two could provide massive employment to males and stop mass unemployment.

yeah. let's join the AU while we're at it. seems to be a great business model for them.

aliqueenb

yeah if they had have voted yes we could have opted out of the eu not that it would be good for us if we did. no the no voters should just move to iran seen as they don't like europe or america lol

ionix5891

aliqueenb wrote: »

yeah if they had have voted yes we could have opted out of the eu not that it would be good for us if we did. no the no voters should just move to iran seen as they don't like europe or america lol

at least Iran has something going for it

lots of OIL



Ireland has what???

our main resource are the highly skilled and educated people, do you think they be sticking around (if Ireland goes backwards) when most of their jobs go to the New EU? like was the case up to early 90s where everybody was emigrating

Red Alert

We shouldn't leave the EU, it's a great project. We're a full member, and as a full member we can decide whether a new treaty should be accepted or not. France and Holland are full members and were entitled to their no vote, so are we.

DublinWriter

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

I suggest we promote farming to young males and try and get our country farming again, also greatly increace the military. These two could provide massive employment to males and stop mass unemployment.

Funnily enough, Hitler had the same idea.

You also forgot to mention the obligatory Comely Maidens dancing at the crossroads.

Pride Fighter

rossie1977 wrote: »

the scaremongering on this thread is unbelievable

For a start US multinationals do not have their EU headquarters in Ireland, they have their european headquarters here (huge difference). The US multinationals primarily moved to Ireland because of the massive devaluation of the Irish punt three times between 1980 and 1993 (an option that has now been lost to us), tax breaks, english speaking workforce, highly educated workforce and the massive setup grants afforded them

Lets take Switzerland as an example; Yahoo are moving their european headquarters there from London; Nissan, Cadbury, Cisco, Ralph Lauren, Ebay (Global administrative headquarters), Hitachi and Philip Morris already have their european headquarters there. Google will follow suit imo as they have justed opened a massive research facility in Zurich. In fact over the next 10-20 years most US/Asian european headquarters will be located in Switzerland because the tax breaks there far exceed anywhere in the EU.

Switzerland are the the EU's third largest goods supplier and second largest customer and 25% of the Swiss workforce are EU citizens

people are under the impression on this thread that the US need the EU when in fact it is completely the opposite in reality, the US do as much business (in fact more) with Singapore and Taiwan than they do with second tier EU nations like Italy, Netherlands and Spain

I said the same thing myself earlier.

irish_bob

DublinWriter wrote: »

Funnily enough, Hitler had the same idea.

You also forgot to mention the obligatory Comely Maidens dancing at the crossroads.

sounds more like what pol pot wanted , a complete return to an agregarian society , we can now call last thursday year zero

TelePaul

If we leave, I'm emmigrating. Simple as. Terrible idea.

iPoker

Rb wrote: »

The money raped from our fishing industry should cover it.

Kev: It was a vote against the treaty, not Europe. People can still be pro-Europe and anti-treaty, if you can't understand that then you should keep quiet tbh.

edited so as to avoid expulsion from fascists

ionix5891

TelePaul wrote: »

If we leave, I'm emmigrating. Simple as. Terrible idea.

yep a return to the GOOD OLE DAYS


oh how selfish/bigheaded/arrogrant we as a country got over the last few years



in the last few days it seems every nationalist, xenophobic redneck has crawled out of the woodwork

iPoker

ionix5891 wrote: »

I cant belive Ireland has gone to such a point, I can't believe that the nuts on the far right and the far left (Sinn Fein im pointing at you!)

Everyone i've spoken to has said the exact same thing...about sinn fein...so how the **** is voting for them? Seemingly 8% of people vote Sinn Fein! disgraceful.


off point

O'Morris

ionix5891 wrote: »

our main resource are the highly skilled and educated people, do you think they be sticking around (if Ireland goes backwards) when most of their jobs go to the New EU?

Those jobs are under threat from the new EU anyway. Leaving the EU won't make any difference to that. As the labour costs are so much lower in eastern Europe, it's only a matter of time before we see not just potential foreign investors but also established multinationals shifting their gaze eastwards.

One of the benefits I can see to leaving to the EU is that we would be able to respond to those threats much more quickly and much more effectively. Not only do we need to preserve our current rate of corporation tax, we're going to need to seriously consider cutting it further as a way of dealing with the competition from the east.

ionix5891

O'Morris wrote: »

Those jobs are under threat from the new EU anyway. Leaving the EU won't make any difference to that. As the labour costs are so much lower in eastern Europe, it's only a matter of time before we see not just potential foreign investors but also established multinationals shifting their gaze eastwards.

yes jobs are shifting but slowly, leaving the EU will accelerate this process and be a shock to the economy, alot of people will find themselves out of jobs rather quickly

O'Morris wrote: »

One of the benefits I can see to leaving to the EU is that we would be able to respond to those threats much more quickly and much more effectively. Not only do we need to preserve our current rate of corporation tax, we're going to need to seriously consider cutting it further as a way of dealing with the competition from the east.

do you pay corporation tax? My company does, and alot of it (alongside other taxes ) yes its less than everywhere else in EU, but if Ireland leaves the EU taxes will have to be cut to same levels as Switzerland or Dubai to try to hold on to hi tech companies leaving.

I was already looking at a place in Dubai Internet City few months ago, Ireland leaving EU will make places like that much much more appealing.

Nowadays it is very hard and frustrating! to find highly skilled people to employ (the money is there, i will be more than happy to pay people who I know could make a lot more back if they have the right education and expertise) what will it be like when everyone with half a brain leaves.

Also in another thread in the comm's forum I previously expressed how bad the communication infrastructure still is in this country (yes our tax money was used to did dig up every road in the country to put in fiber, but most of it is unused..) compared to US or places in EU like Germany and Netherlands, it costs 10x here what it costs over there...

TelePaul

ionix5891 wrote: »

yep a return to the GOOD OLE DAYS


oh how selfish/bigheaded/arrogrant we as a country got over the last few years



in the last few days it seems every nationalist, xenophobic redneck has crawled out of the woodwork

It's a pity, ten years of the good life and we've completely forgotten about the 80s.

ejmaztec

It will be interesting to see how Irish tourists get treated on mainland Europe this year.

DublinWriter

irish_bob wrote: »

sounds more like what pol pot wanted , a complete return to an agregarian society , we can now call last thursday year zero

Surely, you mean 'Blaine uimbhar a hAoine'?*

(*Apologies for spelling)

DublinWriter

ejmaztec wrote: »

It will be interesting to see how Irish tourists get treated on mainland Europe this year.

Clapped on the back, most likely. Remember the French and Dutch voted against the predecessor to Lisbon.

There have also been numerous Europeans coming onto Boards of late and congratulating us on our decision.

ionix5891

DublinWriter wrote: »

Clapped on the back, most likely. Remember the French and Dutch voted against the predecessor to Lisbon.

There have also been numerous Europeans coming onto Boards of late and congratulating us on our decision.

how do you know its not Liberats? without seeing the ip addresses...

http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/gerv/archives/2007/images/internet_dog.jpg


and how many more enemies have we made who are being quiet about it? without an EU wide vote on this no one will know the real opinion of the citizens of all the countries

ejmaztec

DublinWriter wrote: »

Clapped on the back, most likely. Remember the French and Dutch voted against the predecessor to Lisbon.

There have also been numerous Europeans coming onto Boards of late and congratulating us on our decision.

It's hard to guage it. There are almost 400 comments on the following link. My comment (pro-yes) didn't make it.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4128055.ece

I'll be looking at the signs before deciding which of my two passports I'll be taking with me.

ei.sdraob

So

more than a year on, since Lisbon 1 and on the eve of Lisbon 2

do people share kev_ps3's opinion?

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Now that the Irish people had the courage to reject the Treaty should we leave the EU and become an Independent country again?
I think it is. Taking orders from other countrys is not something any patriot should support.

r0nanf

The only thing I support after reading that post is an increase in funding for grammar.