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Immigration played a part!
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13-06-2008 10:20pm#1Immigration played a part in the No vote yesterday and its effects on Irish society. Economic Migration into Ireland since the EU admitted ten new countries on May 1st 2004 has changed the entire fabric of Irish society. Almost 10% of people in Ireland are non-national and this change in such a short period of time has taken Irish people a lot of getting used to.
The fact of the matter is Fianna Fail lied through their teeth during Nice 2 and said there would be no influx of workers into Ireland, yet there was; as Ireland and the UK were the only two countries out of the original 15 to allow unrestricted access to our labour markets. Fast forward four years and now Ireland is now losing over 1,000 jobs a week and the dole queues are swelling big time.
Irish people should not face competition for the dwindling supply of jobs from non-nationals imo, the fact of the matter is that the prolonged presence of economic migrants in Ireland is hurting our domestic economy, by the strain it is now putting on our Welfare system as there are more people here than ever before and less jobs to sustain them. I for one hate to see Irish people having to Emigrate out of Ireland as the state jobs and training agency FÁS are now encouraging people to do. This is a farcical situation where the natives are forced to emigrate because EU migrant workers are allowed to come in and undercut Irish workers causing a downward race to the bottom.
Also the fact that EU workers are entitled to child benefits for their children in the country of origin is ludacris and this is a waste of Irish Taxpayers money. It is time Ireland restricted access to our Labour market as it is contracting and make it law that all employers must first give priority to Irish citizens over non-nationals. Ireland is facing severe recession and it is an obvious step to take.
The fact of the matter is that this played on alot of peoples minds from both sides of the divide and it got little or no attention as the liberal PC brigade will immediately label you a huge "racist" while at the same time criticising Irish people as being too lazy to work and being Anti-Irish.
my two-cents1
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Immigration played a part in the No vote yesterday and its effects on Irish society. Economic Migration into Ireland since the EU admitted ten new countries on May 1st 2004 has changed the entire fabric of Irish society. Almost 10% of people in Ireland are non-national and this change in such a short period of time has taken Irish people a lot of getting used to.
The fact of the matter is Fianna Fail lied through their teeth during Nice 2 and said there would be no influx of workers into Ireland, yet there was; as Ireland and the UK were the only two countries out of the original 15 to allow unrestricted access to our labour markets. Fast forward four years and now Ireland is now losing over 1,000 jobs a week and the dole queues are swelling big time.
Irish people should not face competition for the dwindling supply of jobs from non-nationals imo, the fact of the matter is that the prolonged presence of economic migrants in Ireland is hurting our domestic economy, by the strain it is now putting on our Welfare system as there are more people here than ever before and less jobs to sustain them. I for one hate to see Irish people having to Emigrate out of Ireland as the state jobs and training agency FÁS are now encouraging people to do. This is a farcical situation where the natives are forced to emigrate because EU migrant workers are allowed to come in and undercut Irish workers causing a downward race to the bottom.
Also the fact that EU workers are entitled to child benefits for their children in the country of origin is ludacris and this is a waste of Irish Taxpayers money. It is time Ireland restricted access to our Labour market as it is contracting and make it law that all employers must first give priority to Irish citizens over non-nationals. Ireland is facing severe recession and it is an obvious step to take.
The fact of the matter is that this played on alot of peoples minds from both sides of the divide and it got little or no attention as the liberal PC brigade will immediately label you a huge "racist" while at the same time criticising Irish people as being too lazy to work and being Anti-Irish.
my two-cents
Your right you are racist. In before lock0 -
Sorry I don't agree with you and in fact find your view abhorrent to peaceful international society. I am sure most people would share my view on that,0
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Join Date:Posts: 9866
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Immigration played a part in the No vote yesterday and its effects on Irish society. Economic Migration into Ireland since the EU admitted ten new countries on May 1st 2004 has changed the entire fabric of Irish society. Almost 10% of people in Ireland are non-national and this change in such a short period of time has taken Irish people a lot of getting used to.
The fact of the matter is Fianna Fail lied through their teeth during Nice 2 and said there would be no influx of workers into Ireland, yet there was; as Ireland and the UK were the only two countries out of the original 15 to allow unrestricted access to our labour markets. Fast forward four years and now Ireland is now losing over 1,000 jobs a week and the dole queues are swelling big time.
Irish people should not face competition for the dwindling supply of jobs from non-nationals imo, the fact of the matter is that the prolonged presence of economic migrants in Ireland is hurting our domestic economy, by the strain it is now putting on our Welfare system as there are more people here than ever before and less jobs to sustain them. I for one hate to see Irish people having to Emigrate out of Ireland as the state jobs and training agency FÁS are now encouraging people to do. This is a farcical situation where the natives are forced to emigrate because EU migrant workers are allowed to come in and undercut Irish workers causing a downward race to the bottom.
Also the fact that EU workers are entitled to child benefits for their children in the country of origin is ludacris and this is a waste of Irish Taxpayers money. It is time Ireland restricted access to our Labour market as it is contracting and make it law that all employers must first give priority to Irish citizens over non-nationals. Ireland is facing severe recession and it is an obvious step to take.
The fact of the matter is that this played on alot of peoples minds from both sides of the divide and it got little or no attention as the liberal PC brigade will immediately label you a huge "racist" while at the same time criticising Irish people as being too lazy to work and being Anti-Irish.
my two-cents
I voted no and completely disagree with you.
I find your post racist.0 -
I never knew the EU was a race, and as I was trying to highlight in my post it is exactly this sort of attitude that is preventing the issue being discussed.0
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I don't agree with the OP, but it would not surprise me if some people voted no for the reasons outlined, just for clarification again I do not agree with OP.0
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Thats quite a selfish statement. The Irish in every other nation were economic migrants in the 1980s too.
I voted NO, but not one part of your statement influenced my decision.0 -
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Irish people should not face competition for the dwindling supply of jobs from non-nationals imo, the fact of the matter is that the prolonged presence of economic migrants in Ireland is hurting our domestic economy, by the strain it is now putting on our Welfare system as there are more people here than ever before and less jobs to sustain them.
Those bloody Irish and the they way they used to keep leaving and undercutting locals being paid "on the lump"! Fewer immigrants are arriving and more are leaving already, some will stay as they have secure jobs and commitments but the rest will leave. Eastern Europe is looking for skilled workers now
example a
example b
example c
And at least Ireland has been getting the cream of the crop.my two-cents
Not worth that much.
Mike.0 -
I would not at all be suprised if immigration played a part in peoples decision to vote No.
I have heard it argued that it was a major issue with regard to the rejection by the French and Dutch of the EU constitution plebiscite.
It may also explain why an area with a high level of immigrants such as Dublin west had a higher proportion of No votes than Dublin south and Dun Laoghaire.
if this is the case then its just another example of people voting No not on what was actually in the treaty.
Also...
A key pillar of the EU is the free movement of labour .
considering Ireland may well be heading into recession , and personally I think the NO vote will exacerbate this recession in Ireland , I think we may be glad of getting work , welfare etc. within the states of our European brethren.
It has been said that many people voting here have never lived through a recession and have not had to emigrate before so we should bear this in mind before we start advancing the idea that our fellow Europeans shouldn't have access to jobs and welfare in Ireland.
Gollem.0 -
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Much as I disagree with the OP in his views.
I did hear Pat Rabbite come out on RTE with his view that in "working class" consituencies this kind of thinking did have an effect. He mentioned the fact that building workers were displaced by foreign labour willing to work for the lesser wages offered. Something I have heard anecdotally for the last two years as well, Irish builders/plasterers/plumbers etc jobs getting taken over by Poles etc.
Of course it's not their fault, it's the fact that the government couldn't give a fiddlers about local agreements between unions and employers in different trades and then encouraged (or didn't discourage) those same employers to push wages in those sectors down by hiring in foreign labour. The rogue employers should have been targetted. This is something Rabbite mentioned a couple of years ago and was shot down for saying.
But looking back on it, it he was right, even though no one may have wanted to acknowledge it at the time.
It's difficult to keep wage consensus going when one party (the government) is conspiring with another (employers) to undermine the other party (the unions). When things contract, someone always gets squeezed. So why be surprised when they take their chance to squeeze back?
BTW, before anyone askes I'm neither a labour voter or a member of a union.0 -
gollem_1975 wrote: »I would not at all be suprised if immigration played a part in peoples decision to vote No.
I have heard it argued that it was a major issue with regard to the rejection by the French and Dutch of the EU constitution plebiscite.
It may also explain why an area with a high level of immigrants such as Dublin west had a higher proportion of No votes than Dublin south and Dun Laoghaire.
if this is the case then its just another example of people voting No not on what was actually in the treaty.
Also...
A key pillar of the EU is the free movement of labour .
considering Ireland may well be heading into recession , and personally I think the NO vote will exacerbate this recession in Ireland , I think we may be glad of getting work , welfare etc. within the states of our European brethren.
It has been said that many people voting here have never lived through a recession and have not had to emigrate before so we should bear this in mind before we start advancing the idea that our fellow Europeans shouldn't have access to jobs and welfare in Ireland.
Gollem.
I actually put up some statistics in a previous thread in this form, from an Irish times poll. A very small % of potential no-voters quoted Immigration as a reason for voting no. They were allowwed to choose multiple reasons.
Probably a very small % did vote no for this (ignorant) reason
Then again some people voted Yes solely because Sinn Fein backed a No.
It proabably all evens itself out.0 -
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I actually put up some statistics in a previous thread in this form, from an Irish times poll. A very small % of potential no-voters quoted Immigration as a reason for voting no. They were allowwed to choose multiple reasons.
Probably a very small % did vote no for this (ignorant) reason
Then again some people voted Yes solely because Sinn Fein backed a No.
It proabably all evens itself out.
I suppose that "because sinn fein are backing a no" was option in the irish times poll then?
If it was a sinn fein organised poll do you think anyone would say yes to the "because sinn fein are backing a no" option ?0 -
Immigration may have been a fringe factor in the vote. But I think the general loss in the construction jobs would've been a much bigger factor. Although I do kind of agree on the paying Child benefit for children not living in Ireland. They probably should be getting the child benefit for those children from their native government. Although that would create problems if some stayed kids home and some came to Ireland.0
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gollem_1975 wrote: »I suppose that "because sinn fein are backing a no" was option in the irish times poll then?
If it was a sinn fein organised poll do you think anyone would say yes to the "because sinn fein are backing a no" option ?
yes to first part
Don't understand second part0 -
Immigration played a part in the No vote yesterday and its effects on Irish society.
I would agree although I don't think it was immigration itself so much as our ability to deal with that immigration that influenced people's decision to vote no. It certainly influenced mine. One of the things that's really annoyed me over the last few months is hearing politicians saying 'our hands are tied' anytime the question of restricting immigration is brought up. The Lisbon treaty proposed giving the EU more power over immigration policy and so it would have been more difficult for us to do anything to try to reduce it.
Immigration into Ireland is far too high and we're going need our government to take action to restrict it soon, not only to protect our workers at a time when jobs are scarce but also because most Irish people are concerned about the long-term cultural and social consequences of what's happening. A poll in the Irish Tribune found that 80% of the Irish people asked think that immigration should be restricted and 60% think that it's a threat to Irish culture.
I read that 90% of all the new jobs created since the start of the year have gone to non-Irish workersFast forward four years and now Ireland is now losing over 1,000 jobs a week and the dole queues are swelling big time.
http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/labour_market/current/qnhs.pdf
"Non-Irish workers are tentatively estimated to have accounted for over 48,000 (90.0%) of the annual increase in employment and for 1,300 (14.9%) of theincrease in the number of unemployed persons."sink wrote:Sorry I don't agree with you and in fact find your view abhorrent to peaceful international society. I am sure most people would share my view on that,menoscemo wrote:I voted no and completely disagree with you.
I find your post racist.
I find those comments ironic considering that those are just those kinds of over-the-top responses predicted whenever the subject of immigration is discussed.
I think mumhaabu expressed a very valid opinion, an opinion shared by a large section of the Irish population. I can't see anything racist about what he's said as most of the immigrants coming to Ireland are the same race as ourselves.
I think it's a pity that you find those views racist. If a poll were taken I think most Irish people would hold a different view.0 -
"Irish people should not face competition for the dwindling supply of jobs from non-nationals imo"
This quote is from the OP Drivel.
Why not? Are non-nationals not entitled to apply for jobs? Surely it is up to the employer to decide who they employ?
So do you want to force all non-natioanls onto the social? I think not, becuase then you would be complaining that they are scrounging off our economy....so then the only solution would be to send them all home right?
This is the logical conclusion to the OP's argument therefore it is a pile of racist crap.0 -
it is dificult to pass a referendum like lisbon when things are getting tight
there is a lack of a feel good vibe in the air and people are in bad humour, they irrationally lash out and look for a scapegoat , there were people on the radio talking this morning about why they voted no , not one of the reasons given had any relevance to the treaty itelf, one speaker was a farmer in the west of ireland who said no one cared about the man with only a few cows now
another speaker said this country was too expensive , another speaker said they couldnt get a house
if i listend long enough , im pretty sure i would have heard some one say they voted no because there husband was crap in bed
many saw a no vote as being a victimless crime , they were not specifically rejecting fianna fail or the other main parties
they were in reality shooting themselves in the foot but when people are both scared and frustrated at more personal every day practical issues , they often make stupid descisions on matters like an exotic far removed european referendum
as i said in other posts , there were only a tiny tiny number of tru believers on the no side0 -
Immigration played a part in the No vote yesterday and its effects on Irish society. Economic Migration into Ireland since the EU admitted ten new countries on May 1st 2004 has changed the entire fabric of Irish society. Almost 10% of people in Ireland are non-national and this change in such a short period of time has taken Irish people a lot of getting used to.
The fact of the matter is Fianna Fail lied through their teeth during Nice 2 and said there would be no influx of workers into Ireland, yet there was; as Ireland and the UK were the only two countries out of the original 15 to allow unrestricted access to our labour markets. Fast forward four years and now Ireland is now losing over 1,000 jobs a week and the dole queues are swelling big time.
Irish people should not face competition for the dwindling supply of jobs from non-nationals imo, the fact of the matter is that the prolonged presence of economic migrants in Ireland is hurting our domestic economy, by the strain it is now putting on our Welfare system as there are more people here than ever before and less jobs to sustain them. I for one hate to see Irish people having to Emigrate out of Ireland as the state jobs and training agency FÁS are now encouraging people to do. This is a farcical situation where the natives are forced to emigrate because EU migrant workers are allowed to come in and undercut Irish workers causing a downward race to the bottom.
Also the fact that EU workers are entitled to child benefits for their children in the country of origin is ludacris and this is a waste of Irish Taxpayers money. It is time Ireland restricted access to our Labour market as it is contracting and make it law that all employers must first give priority to Irish citizens over non-nationals. Ireland is facing severe recession and it is an obvious step to take.
The fact of the matter is that this played on alot of peoples minds from both sides of the divide and it got little or no attention as the liberal PC brigade will immediately label you a huge "racist" while at the same time criticising Irish people as being too lazy to work and being Anti-Irish.
my two-cents
What a load of crap. Meh, think I'll stop paying my 45k a year tax then as you obviously don't want it.
The only people worried about immigration are irrational xenophobes. If you can't see the massive need for immigration in this country you're blind.
If I and the rest of the people like me leave you'll be up **** creek faster than you think.
How is immigration the cause for loss of jobs here? If you hadn't notice the economyis facing quite a few challenges locally (and most everywhere else). I guess it's just easy to blame the immigrants (read: Blacks?).
With regards to changing the law in favour of favouring Irish nationals over others, that's already in place for non-eu nationals. If you want to tighten it more and include EU nationals how will you cope with all those Irish working all over Europe who'll probably then face the same treatment, being forced home?
Codswallop.0 -
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I would agree with the OP mumhaabu. We have allowed far too many foreigners into this small Island. The law of open boarders is one big reason why I think we should leave the EU asap and send all those Poles back.
And btw, those posters who said that he was racist dont know the meaning of the word. Look it up, being opposed to mass immigration does not make you a racist.0 -
This quote is from the OP Drivel.
Why not? Are non-nationals not entitled to apply for jobs? Surely it is up to the employer to decide who they employ?
So do you want to force all non-natioanls onto the social? I think not, becuase then you would be complaining that they are scrounging off our economy....so then the only solution would be to send them all home right?
This is the logical conclusion to the OP's argument therefore it is a pile of racist crap.
I find it regrettable that people can react so sensitively and so emotionally to such an important issue. We need to think very seriously and very rationally about the future of our immigration policy and so using words like 'racist' when the issue being discussed has nothing to do with race is not likely to lead to a mature debate on the subject. If I was a moderator I might be inclined to remind people of this.Mena wrote:If you can't see the massive need for immigration in this country you're blind.
Please tell me you've seen the latest unemployment figures?
I don't think anyone said it's the cause of job losses. Immigrants take jobs that could just as easily be filled by native Irish workers, and so in a time of job scarcity such as we have now, immigration is likely to lead to higher unemployment among the native workers who would otherwise be able to fill the jobs filled by the immigrants.How is immigration the cause for loss of jobs here?
Do you realise that most other EU countries still have restrictions on immigration from eastern Europe? We can't we impose the same restrictions?If you want to tighten it more and include EU nationals how will you cope with all those Irish working all over Europe who'll probably then face the same treatment, being forced home?0 -
I wouldn't agree with the OP's opinions on migrant workers but I do think that immigration was probably one of a large number of smaller issues that made up the No vote.
Also, while the OP does appear to be trying to make a rational argument, quite a few other posters seem to think that merely crying racist automatically allows them to 'win' without need for reasoned debate.0 -
leeroybrown wrote: »Also, while the OP does appear to be trying to make a rational argument, quite a few other posters seem to think that merely crying racist automatically allows them to 'win' without need for reasoned debate.
It would be interesting to see if any of the moderators express an opinion on the overuse of the word in discussions such as these. I consider use of the word insulting and completely inappropriate in the context.0 -
Immigration is essential to a country's economy but it needs to be controlled. Ireland went from having very little non nationals to having a huge influx of them in a very short time. I don't think Irish people are truely racist in the true sense of racism as displayed in other countries around the world past and present. It was just that we were a country still young in it's freedom and part of our country is still occupied and we were still going through a conflict or just wrapping one up. It was just too much too soon in a short space of time. As a nation i don't think we are very trusting of non nationals coming to our shore as it is hidden in our mind set regardless of how Republican or nationalist you are.
Anyways i didn't vote no because immigration.0 -
It is time Ireland restricted access to our Labour market as it is contracting and make it law that all employers must first give priority to Irish citizens over non-nationals. Ireland is facing severe recession and it is an obvious step to take.
Where were you over the last few years when companies in Ireland couldn't get enough people? It's OK to hire people and tax them when times are good but when times are bad we should be discriminating against them by where they come from?
As somebody who has conducted many interviews I'll take the best person qualified for the job thanks. I'm not going to hire somebody based on where they're from. I'm going to hire somebody based on how well they can do the job. If that person is French, Polish, Japanese, Irish, English or Martian I don't care. Companies don't do well by bypassing the best candidates because of country of origin or colour. They're there to make money. And if you start putting restrictions on who they can hire I'd be pretty sure you'd start to see a lot of American companies move out of Ireland. A lot of them come here because of the different nationalities they can employ easily.
As somebody who's worked abroad I've seen it from the other angle. I didn't give a crap when the locals were complaining about all the Irish and English that were being hired. I looked at it the same way. If the locals were good enough, they would have been hired instead of us.0 -
Neamhshuntasach wrote: »Ireland went from having very little non nationals to having a huge influx of them in a very short time.
Bleedin' Pygmies coming here taking our jobs.0 -
The OP really has made some very interesting points. It is very narrow minded and a bit disrespectful to shoot someone down, calling them rascist when they have taken the time to prepare this thread. First of all Ireland as a nation cannot sustain the current influx of foreign nationals to the state. Ireland really has only been standing on it's own two feet for now for the past 15 years. When times are good (which they have been for 10-15 years) everybody is happy, the Celtic Tiger really succeeded. However when things are starting looking to bleak people will respond. My parents generation would have lived in bad times (70's and 80's) where emmigration to Canada and Australia was really in overdrive. They were actally encouarging people to emigrate to Australia by paying them to do so.
My point is until people have actually lived through a recession they cannot really comprehend it. If people decide to stand up and take notice of the changing situation they are presumed by others to be rascist. If unskilled migrants are taking Irish jobs now how are we going to feel when Romanians, Russians, Bulgarians, Maltese, Cretian, Hungarian etc decide to come over and fill the void left behind by the departing Polish workers. Let's not forget Polish people came to Ireland because of the cultural/historical sililarities between the two nations. Catholism playing a very big part in Polish peoples minds coming here. When they do decide to go home the above mentioned countries people will come to Ireland and I will assure it will not be for cultural similarities.
This is a testing phase if you will. Unskilled workeres coming to Ireland for work. What will happen in the near future when skilled workers who have learned the language (which is being tought to them by Irish people, I myself have been a T.EF.L. teacher)come here. Architects, Accountants, Senior Management Positions, Science positions (including research) and teaching/lecturing positions will all be contested by all people, Irish obviously included. Then people will seriously start to take notice. That is why Ireland voted No. You simply cannot hand control of the state over to a council who will be more interested in appeasing all 500 million residents rather than a small nation with less than 1% of the entire population. People think long term, 10-20 years down the line, a generation or so into the future not a quick fix.
Read the posts by non Irish people thanking the Irish people for voting no. Let's not forget the Irish Government works for us. The were democratically elected by the Irish people to represent their interests both at home and abroad. So therefore in a democratically elected goverment what is their solution - to hand control of the state over to an international council. Do people not see a connection in Europe? If it where down to Europe they would have all governments and parliaments ratify The Lisbon Treaty without giving the people the voice to make the decisions....oh hang on a minute that's exactly what they are doing right now!!! Fortunately our courts require a reforendum in order to amend our constitution.
I am returning to full time eduaction in Sept of this year because in the next 4-5 years I will be in a much better position than I am now. Thinking in working in Film/TV in either Spain or Dubai once I graduate. By the way I did vote No and all the scare mongering in the world did not have any influence on my decision. Thank you for reading this.0 -
This is a testing phase if you will. Unskilled workeres coming to Ireland for work. What will happen in the near future when skilled workers who have learned the language (which is being tought to them by Irish people, I myself have been a T.EF.L. teacher)come here. Architects, Accountants, Senior Management Positions, Science positions (including research) and teaching/lecturing positions will all be contested by all people, Irish obviously included. Then people will seriously start to take notice. That is why Ireland voted No.
Skilled migrants have been coming here for the last 10 years. I would have thought they were the majority. The celtic tiger didn't happen because of a boom in unskilled positions.0 -
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mickoneill30 wrote: »It's OK to hire people and tax them when times are good but when times are bad we should be discriminating against them by where they come from?
It's not discrimination. Treating a non-citizen with less priveliges than you treat our own citizens is not discrimination. It's not discrimination when we don't allow foreigners to vote in our elections.
And nobody would expect you to. As an employer you have every right to hire the best person for the job.I'm not going to hire somebody based on where they're from.
As a country however we're under no obligation to provide you with an endless supply of labour. You make do with what's available. There are competing interests that we need to balance.
So do you think we should have a completely open jobs market where anyone in the world should be allowed to apply for any available jobs in this country? Or can you understand why might that might cause problems?If that person is French, Polish, Japanese, Irish, English or Martian I don't care.
And if you do support a completely open market for labour would you also support the same open market for goods and services?0
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