Immigration played a part!

mickoneill30

O'Morris wrote: »

It's not discrimination. Treating a non-citizen with less priveliges than you treat our own citizens is not discrimination. It's not discrimination when we don't allow foreigners to vote in our elections.

I was talking about people who have the right to work here.
The op was talking about EU workers wasnt he? Or is he talking about people from outside of the EU? Are non EU people coming over here in great numbers?
When he said that Irish people should get priority over non nationals I presumed he meant Irish should get priority over French / UK / Polish etc.

I know the Lisbon treaty had nothing to do with either but as he said people voted no because of immigration I'd presume he meant immigration from Europe.

O'Morris wrote: »

As a country however we're under no obligation to provide you with an endless supply of labour. You make do with what's available. There are competing interests that we need to balance.

Eh that's the point. If Irish / Europeans are available why only make do with just Irish. Take the best. If that's Irish, great.

O'Morris wrote: »

So do you think we should have a completely open jobs market where anyone in the world should be allowed to apply for any available jobs in this country?

The op wasn't talking about a completely open market. He was talking about restricting what we have.

DenMan

I agree completely with you but from a European perspective skilled migrants back then where in a minority and if they were European were not EU members at that time. Now it much different with the enlargement of the EU, also a different time. With great booms also comes a crunch, a recession if you will. Ireland really has benefited from skilled migrants in the past but now with the scale of skilled/unskilled migrants it is a completely different ball game.

I lived and worked in Malta which is more North/North East African than European. They now have a huge problem with Libyan nationals in their country, similar to the Roma here. First the Libyan people landed by boat by accident thinking it was Italy and now they are flying in. If a small nation like that has problems you can only imagine what affect it could have on other countries. Malta only recently having become a member of the EU. The Maltese President objected wanting to send them all home and he was immediately shot down by the EU. And Libya is not even part of the European Union. Going to be very interesting times ahead here in Ireland

gurramok

If they say working class areas tended to vote no, it's a bit of a co-incidence as its that part of the electorate who are most affected by immigration and the competition for jobs.(so far)

I'd say its a factor since Nice. When the competition for jobs starts affecting middle classes and the immune public sector, they will begin to know what its like.

Now as we're into a recession, the immigrants do become scapegoats and i think their huge numbers in such a short time(talking about EU migrants as they are far the biggest) would cause resentment in some quarters to persuade some voters to vote no.

O'Morris

mickoneill30 wrote: »

I was talking about people who have the right to work here.

Yes, but I don't think it would be correct to say that removing their right to work here would constitute discrimination. I don't think it's discrimination to deny the citizens of a foreign country a privilege that would normally only apply to your own citizens. If we were going to restrict it to a certain group of Irish citizens then that would be discrimination.

aliqueenb

yeah immigration did play a part in the racist irish minds

DenMan

aliqueenb wrote: »

yeah immigration did play a part in the racist irish minds

I wouldn't say racism played any part in the Irish voters decision to reject the Lisbon Treaty. Ireland has campaigned for a more integrated and democratic Europe which it is the people who build a better Europe.

Europe as a bloc has to address many issues that the Irish people feel has not been discussed. What Nations leader advises the people to vote NO if they are unsure about the Treaty.

The co-operation and friendship between members of the European Union needs to be addressed. Ireland for one has been at the forefront of promoting these changes. Now it is time to go about implementing those policies in a fair and unified way. Not forcing them upon people in a manner in which they do not understand or comprehend the decisions being made on their behalf. One Europe, one voice. The people, all 500 million of us not a select few on an international council not elected by the public but rather their parliaments.

You should read The Lisbon Treaty and think of all of the possible scenarios that could arise as a result of it. Words can have many meanings and could also be implemented in so many different ways and interpreted differently by those who have the power to make those changes. Think before you blink or look before you leap. Very appropriate words.

Sgt Hartman

mumhaabu wrote: »

Immigration played a part in the No vote yesterday and its effects on Irish society. Economic Migration into Ireland since the EU admitted ten new countries on May 1st 2004 has changed the entire fabric of Irish society. Almost 10% of people in Ireland are non-national and this change in such a short period of time has taken Irish people a lot of getting used to.

The fact of the matter is Fianna Fail lied through their teeth during Nice 2 and said there would be no influx of workers into Ireland, yet there was; as Ireland and the UK were the only two countries out of the original 15 to allow unrestricted access to our labour markets. Fast forward four years and now Ireland is now losing over 1,000 jobs a week and the dole queues are swelling big time.

Irish people should not face competition for the dwindling supply of jobs from non-nationals imo, the fact of the matter is that the prolonged presence of economic migrants in Ireland is hurting our domestic economy, by the strain it is now putting on our Welfare system as there are more people here than ever before and less jobs to sustain them. I for one hate to see Irish people having to Emigrate out of Ireland as the state jobs and training agency FÁS are now encouraging people to do. This is a farcical situation where the natives are forced to emigrate because EU migrant workers are allowed to come in and undercut Irish workers causing a downward race to the bottom.

Also the fact that EU workers are entitled to child benefits for their children in the country of origin is ludacris and this is a waste of Irish Taxpayers money. It is time Ireland restricted access to our Labour market as it is contracting and make it law that all employers must first give priority to Irish citizens over non-nationals. Ireland is facing severe recession and it is an obvious step to take.

The fact of the matter is that this played on alot of peoples minds from both sides of the divide and it got little or no attention as the liberal PC brigade will immediately label you a huge "racist" while at the same time criticising Irish people as being too lazy to work and being Anti-Irish.

my two-cents

I agree with the OP in that we have taken in far too many people far too quickly. We have learned nothing from other countries such as Britain, Sweden, France and Holland. When our economy was at it's peak we all wallowed in the good times and we were too short-sighted to learn or even care about the future consequences of uncontrolled immigration. Live for today, f**k the future. People just kept tip-toeing around the subject and anyone who dared question it were immediately shot down as "filthy ignorant narrow-minded racists".

The fact of the matter is that this played on alot of peoples minds from both sides of the divide and it got little or no attention as the liberal PC brigade will immediately label you a huge "racist" while at the same time criticising Irish people as being too lazy to work and being Anti-Irish.

Looks like the above statement from the OP has already been proven true from what I've seen in some of the posts so far.
:rolleyes:

irish_bob

gurramok wrote: »

If they say working class areas tended to vote no, it's a bit of a co-incidence as its that part of the electorate who are most affected by immigration and the competition for jobs.(so far)

I'd say its a factor since Nice. When the competition for jobs starts affecting middle classes and the immune public sector, they will begin to know what its like.

Now as we're into a recession, the immigrants do become scapegoats and i think their huge numbers in such a short time(talking about EU migrants as they are far the biggest) would cause resentment in some quarters to persuade some voters to vote no.

apart from nurses and doctors , there are more or less no foreigners in the public service , the surplus to requirement pen pushers who wages could be spent on beds , there all white union backed irish

nesf

leeroybrown wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with the OP's opinions on migrant workers but I do think that immigration was probably one of a large number of smaller issues that made up the No vote.

Exactly. Anyone arguing that it didn't really isn't in touch with the mood in some parts of the country. The immigration issue was there in the general election, was there in this referendum and is very likely to still be around come the local elections next year. I don't personally subscribe to it but it's a fairly common reaction internationally for some groups within a country to react badly to a strong influx of foreign workers.

ionix5891

i find this thread disgusting, what have the Irish become?

nesf

ionix5891 wrote: »

i find this thread disgusting, what have the Irish become?

Human.

ionix5891

nesf wrote: »

Human.

sigh

less human i would say


http://www.rzuser.uni-heidelberg.de/~el6/presentations/Irish_Americans_S2_WS2003/foto/Image7.gif


for a nation we have short memory



so now we gonna play the "blame the immigrants" card?


how very Nazi of us, oh wait i forgot Sein Fein got what they wanted yesterday, whats next immigrants have to wear a yellow star?

(p.s. "they" already are required to carry biometric GNIB ID green plastic cards)


wasn't it the construction industry not too long ago who were trying to get any able bodied man to work at lowest price possible, and now that things are not doing so well they scream "they took our jobs"

nesf

ionix5891 wrote: »

sigh

less human i would say


http://www.rzuser.uni-heidelberg.de/~el6/presentations/Irish_Americans_S2_WS2003/foto/Image7.gif


for a nation we have short memory



so now we gonna play the "blame the immigrants" card?


how very Nazi of us, oh wait i forgot Sein Fein got what they wanted yesterday, whats next immigrants have to wear a yellow star?

(p.s. "they" already are required to carry biometric GBIB ID green plastic cards)


wasn't it the construction industry not too long ago who were trying to get any able bodied man to work at lowest price possible, and now that things are not doing so well they scream "they took our jobs"

But xenophobia and "us versus them" mentalities are just parts of human nature. They aren't pretty but denying they exist or merely dismissing the concern completely isn't productive. Saying "What has Ireland become?" just marginalises people who voted because of this issue rather than trying to engage with them and trying to convince them to look at it from a different perspective.

I find xenophobia as irritating as the next arrogant elitist but it doesn't mean it's not something that we should ignore. To do so will just further reinforce it and cause it to become even more entrenched in some areas.

ircoha

Sgt Hartman wrote: »

I agree with the OP in that we have taken in far too many people far too quickly. We have learned nothing from other countries such as Britain, Sweden, France and Holland. When our economy was at it's peak we all wallowed in the good times and we were too short-sighted to learn or even care about the future consequences of uncontrolled immigration. Live for today, f**k the future. People just kept tip-toeing around the subject and anyone who dared question it were immediately shot down as "filthy ignorant narrow-minded racists".



Looks like the above statement from the OP has already been proven true from what I've seen in some of the posts so far.
:rolleyes:

Quality piece IMO.
Would just add the Turkish problem in Germany to the list.


While the choice of language by the OP might allow the harsh criticism leveled at him pass as fair comment, it shows the difficulty in discussing certain issues in Ireland.
For example
How did we get to the situation in Balbriggan last September where 100 or so children of African origin were looking for schooling?

I know many of them were born in Ireland and therefore made Irish Citizens of the parents.
How can we let such a ghetto-like environment develop?
If you express a concern about an obvious failure of public policy you are branded a racist/xenophobe.

ionix5891

nesf wrote: »

Saying "What has Ireland become?" just marginalises people who voted because of this issue rather than trying to engage with them and trying to convince them to look at it from a different perspective. .

You are right

I was trained as an engineer, so first things you do is ask questions (which i did) and define the problem before deciding on how to approach the issue

and this racist crap has to be addressed in this country

nesf wrote: »

But xenophobia and "us versus them" mentalities are just parts of human nature..

xenophobia. theres plenty of that on this site, just look here for an example
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=56245854&postcount=154

It might be part of our nature but its a dangerous part, the part that starts wars and conflict, if you don't address it early well just look at the European history before EU was formed... or look no further than the north of this island...

If you express a concern about an obvious failure of public policy you are branded a racist/xenophobe.

How did we get to the situation in Balbriggan last September where 100 or so children of African origin were looking for schooling?

would it be a "situation" if they weren't of "african" origin but where white? there are plenty of kids in this country in overcrowded classrooms is that not a bigger "situation"


.

JohnMc1

It didn't take long for the bleeding heart PC sell-out liberals t come on her and shout the race card.

The thread starter is correct. I agree Irish taxpayers shouldn't be paying child support for children not in the country. It leaves our system open for abuse. How do we know these children exist or not?

I feel they should crack down on the foreign cars because they are not designed for our driving systems [ofcourse the do gooders were talking about changing it to accomodate the foreigners] plus they are not state taxed and they do not have Irish insurance.

As far as Immigration numbers go. The Irish Gov't should of been smart [which they are not and neither are the sheeple that vote them in time and again] they would of said "We want this many foreign laborers and that's it" and stood their ground. Instead they let every Tom,Dick and Harry in the country and now are at risk of overpopulation and crime is at an all time high here. And most of EEs are just stepping off the plane and walking right into the welfare office signing up for every social benefit in the country.

Basically enjoy your country while you still have it because it won't be for much longer. In a few years Ireland will be called something else and the Irish will cease to exist. And the Irish have no one to blame but themselves.

ircoha

ionix5891 wrote: »

You are right

I was trained as an engineer, so first things you do is ask questions (which i did) and define the problem before deciding on how to approach the issue

and this racist crap has to be addressed in this country



xenophobia. theres plenty of that on this site, just look here for an example
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=56245854&postcount=154

It might be part of our nature but its a dangerous part, the part that starts wars and conflict, if you don't address it early well just look at the European history before EU was formed... or look no further than the north of this island...





would it be a "situation" if they weren't of "african" origin but where white? there are plenty of kids in this country in overcrowded classrooms is that not a bigger "situation"


.

Of course it is but it can be discussed without the racist accusation being leveled to stop the discussion. That is the point I was trying to make : the racist card is being used to stifle legitimate debate: school underfunding/overcrowding: well sin sceil eile:)

ionix5891

ircoha wrote: »

Of course it is but it can be discussed without the racist accusation being leveled to stop the discussion. That is the point I was trying to make : the racist card is being used to stifle legitimate debate: school underfunding/overcrowding: well sin sceil eile:)

see how i came to the root issue without using racism? we both agree the education system could be improved, 100 "african" (they were born in Ireland they are Irish we settled this in the last referendum) kids is the least of the problems of this system

JohnMc1 wrote: »

As far as Immigration numbers go. The Irish Gov't should of been smart

ok lets kick everyone who wasnt born here out, should be interesting what happens to this country then

if you dont see the contribution most non-nationals made to the economy (and other aspects such as culture) then you shoud crawl out out of your conservative arm chair and look around

yes there are freeloaders and they should be dealt with, we have plenty of our own freeloaders living away their life on social welfare btw don't forget to mention them

scoey

I agree with the OP.

When a countries non national population shoots up from next to nothing to around 10% in a few years, people having an issue with that are not necessarily racist. Apparently concern for one's own culture/history/identity is racist. Apparently people thinking that Irish people should be entitled to more things in Ireland than non nationals is racist.

The idea that it is progressive and enlightened to have no respect for one's own culture, and that a country should show no preference towards it's own citizens, is pretty ridiculous to me.

Any time anyone tries to raise an issue like this, the usual stuff comes out. Cries of racism and reminders of all the Irish who went to America and were "welcomed in with open arms" etc. The idea that immigration into America and immigration into Ireland are identical is absurd and shows a pretty shockingly poor knowledge of the history of America. Not that it was all "open arms" and handouts anyway in America and Britain, etc.

There seems to me to be a big group in Ireland, who have some sort of inferiority complex and think we owe the world a big debt of gratitude for favours supposedly received in the past. Vote yes because "the E.U has been good to us" or "we owe the E.U a debt of gratitude". "The only reason Ireland has any money is because of E.U handouts". I'm sure it helped, but I'm sure there's more to Ireland's economic success than 60 billion euro's received(mostly for the C.A.P) over the course of 30 years, and 20billion given back.

Don't dare have a problem with uncontrolled high levels of immigration or you're a racist and don't forget all those Irish people who emigrated into wonderfully accepting countries in the past.

To be honest, I think countries with smaller populations need tougher immigration rules than bigger ones, as it takes a much smaller amount of immigrants to become a large percentage of the society and completely change the culture. But, hey ho, whatever. Irish culture, who cares about that? You were born in Ireland, big deal, that should entitle you to nothing more in Ireland than someone from anywhere else gets. If you disagree you are a :a racist or b:a nazi, both of which have been thrown around in this thread already.

nesf

JohnMc1 wrote: »

The thread starter is correct. I agree Irish taxpayers shouldn't be paying child support for children not in the country.

Would you have a problem with a foreign national family, where the father and/or mother worked getting the normal child support that we Irish get?


Personally, as far as they are working and paying their way in terms of tax they are entitled to all the benefits that Irish people get. I'd have far less sympathy patience for people sponging off the system, but that's not a foreign nation thing, I have as much contempt for Irish people who do it.

JohnMc1

nesf wrote: »

Would you have a problem with a foreign national family, where the father and/or mother worked getting the normal child support that we Irish get?

If the child isn't in the country they sould not be eligible for child support. It leaves the Gov't open for fraud.

nesf

JohnMc1 wrote: »

If the child isn't in the country they sould not be eligible for child support. It leaves the Gov't open for fraud.

Ah sorry, now I get you. I thought you meant a child that was born outside of the country, who was now living in the country.

JohnMc1

nesf wrote: »

Ah sorry, now I get you. I thought you meant a child that was born outside of the country, who was now living in the country.

No problem nesf. The radio station here quoted how much was given out from child support for children not in the country and there was no way of proving if the children actually existed.

irish_bob

JohnMc1 wrote: »

It didn't take long for the bleeding heart PC sell-out liberals t come on her and shout the race card.

The thread starter is correct. I agree Irish taxpayers shouldn't be paying child support for children not in the country. It leaves our system open for abuse. How do we know these children exist or not?

I feel they should crack down on the foreign cars because they are not designed for our driving systems [ofcourse the do gooders were talking about changing it to accomodate the foreigners] plus they are not state taxed and they do not have Irish insurance.

As far as Immigration numbers go. The Irish Gov't should of been smart [which they are not and neither are the sheeple that vote them in time and again] they would of said "We want this many foreign laborers and that's it" and stood their ground. Instead they let every Tom,Dick and Harry in the country and now are at risk of overpopulation and crime is at an all time high here. And most of EEs are just stepping off the plane and walking right into the welfare office signing up for every social benefit in the country.

Basically enjoy your country while you still have it because it won't be for much longer. In a few years Ireland will be called something else and the Irish will cease to exist. And the Irish have no one to blame but themselves.

you forgot to mention how they get free cars from the health board

cabinteelytom

I quote Mickoneill earlier in this thread; ' A lot of them [US companies] come here because of the different nationalities they can employ easily.'

Please, please, please tell us, 'HOW DO THEY DO THAT?'
Because the EU has a lot of rules intended to make that difficult, not easy.

The EU is a protected, regulated labour market. For the worker there are benefits: there is free movement to seek job opportunities anywhere within the Union, and there is protection from competition with workers from outside the EU.
For companies there are the benefits of a huge tariff-free single-market, but a downside is, rules which require you to choose your employees from the pool of EU staff.
If foreign companies have got around these requirements more often in Ireland than in other EU countries ....and Irish workers are less protected than other EU workers....could we please be told how this is done?

ShooterSF

I'm glad the mods left this thread open for debate and not closed it out of fear of people catching racism. I think it's possible immigration played a part in the no vote and one might say it had nothing to do with lisbon but people equate the EU with freedom to work in other EU nations and may actually explain some of the distain for the EU at the minute among the working classes.

Immigration is a tender issue but it does need to be debated and those that start shouting RACIST should not block out discussion. If he had blamed the poles for example, not immigration policies, that would be racist.

Personally I would prefer jobs to be offered to the Irish first in Ireland, I realize that's only fantasy but does that make me racist? For the record I think the same should apply to all nations.

ixtlan

cabinteelytom wrote: »

I quote Mickoneill earlier in this thread; ' A lot of them [US companies] come here because of the different nationalities they can employ easily.'

Please, please, please tell us, 'HOW DO THEY DO THAT?'
Because the EU has a lot of rules intended to make that difficult, not easy.

The EU is a protected, regulated labour market. For the worker there are benefits: there is free movement to seek job opportunities anywhere within the Union, and there is protection from competition with workers from outside the EU.
For companies there are the benefits of a huge tariff-free single-market, but a downside is, rules which require you to choose your employees from the pool of EU staff.
If foreign companies have got around these requirements more often in Ireland than in other EU countries ....and Irish workers are less protected than other EU workers....could we please be told how this is done?

Many companies operate support desks here for their products. Here in Cork we have Vmware, EMC, Blizzard, and many others. They want people who speak EU(and other) languages and English.

Hence some jobs are better targeted at non-Irish nationals, although the Irish are welcome if they speak a foreign language.

This is a worthwhile thread and I'll add my comments.

I am of Irish parents, born in England but living here since I was 6 months, so you will say I am Irish. However I am counted as an immigrant in any census. The free movment of labour is one of the great benefits of the EU. It does sometimes cause some pain when one state goes through a boom and there is an influx of workers causing the locals to feel crowded out, but in the long term it's a good thing allowing those workers to move elsewhere when jobs are more scarce, and hence making the whole EU more economically stable.

Unfortunately the Irish and maybe the British don't get to use this system as much as they might due to the language problem. That is, because we are not bothered learning another language. That's a pity but c'est la vie.

I understand some people's concern, but honestly if we look at the immigrants from the EU states their culture is not that different from our own. If they didn't speak with an accent many of them could just as easily be Irish, so I don't really get this losing our identity crap.

We signed up to the EU so we share our job market. For those countries we opened to there's no going back, unless there were drastic changes in future treaties. Such changes would be a disaster for the EU, would collapse the whole project, and while there might be fewer immigrants here there would certainly be a lot fewer jobs overall.

So, I understand the pain, but I think it's for a long term good.

I have to return to a comment by Denman, that I don't think anyone picked up on. After going back to college he is hoping to work in TV in Spain or Dubai. Why can he work in Spain? Open job market with equal rights compared to any Spaniard. Dubai is a different model, which I abhor... He can work there as a guest of the Emirs, without citizenship, with fewer rights than the nationals (electricity even costs more for the non-nationals) and subject to deportation when they no longer need his services. When you travel through Dubai it's hard to miss the constant stream of buses carrying the immigrant construction workers between their dormitories and the building sites. The guys (mostly from the Phillipines and other developing countries) look bone weary and live in apalling conditions. Dubai has been criticised for it's sub-human treatment of such workers. Morally and ethically, if you want to grow your economy which is a better model?

Ix.

ionix5891

ShooterSF wrote: »

For the record I think the same should apply to all nations.

a lot of the irish working abroad would want to have a word with you :rolleyes:

ShooterSF

ionix5891 wrote: »

a lot of the irish working abroad would want to have a word with you :rolleyes:

Fair enough, just me belief.

aliqueenb

JohnMc1 wrote: »

It didn't take long for the bleeding heart PC sell-out liberals t come on her and shout the race card.

believe you me i am no bleeding heart PC sell-out liberal. i would have voted pds in the last election if i was old enough lol

JohnMc1 wrote: »

The thread starter is correct. I agree Irish taxpayers shouldn't be paying child support for children not in the country. It leaves our system open for abuse. How do we know these children exist or not?

i agree also, why are they? i actually don't know here fill me in!

JohnMc1 wrote: »

And most of EEs are just stepping off the plane and walking right into the welfare office signing up for every social benefit in the country.

a hell of alot of irish people are on the dole too, abolish it, would make lazy irish and forigners get up and do some work (haha told you i wasn't a bleeding heart PC sell-out liberal
and as some prob did when they left for america/england in the 80's

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Basically enjoy your country while you still have it because it won't be for much longer. In a few years Ireland will be called something else and the Irish will cease to exist. And the Irish have no one to blame but themselves.

oh please.:rolleyes: i say get rid of religios based schools and that will do alot, intergration at young age. but not that crappy oh lets dance and sing to your style stuff, oh yeah you can wear that to school even though it degrades you. seen an article in the irish times during the weekend, this girl was going on about how she liked wearing the hjjab cos men looked at her face instead of you know where lol, but i think why should she have to hide herself?