Two reasons to vote no.

the_syco

I voted yes in the last one, but may vote no in the next one (you're naive if you don't think there'll be a second one), after watching this video.

14:00 - The first being that EU law will always be right. This means that if Irish law says no, and EU law says yes, then Irish law also says yes. In Austria, referendums are illegal. Now, if this was EU law, we wouldn't be allowed to hold referendums. This is not at all good.

49:35 - Qualified Majority Voiting (QMV) puts the power into the larger states, as it despends on the population count of the countries. SO basically, England, France

To pass a law, 15 out of the 27 countries must vote yes. Also, those 15 countries must have 65% of the EU population.

To block a law, 4 out of 27 countries must vote no. Also these need 35% of the EU opulation (EU's FAQ page "forgets" to include this). 35% = 171million. German & France = 147million. Still 24million short, but adding any other two countries would bring it up. So although they don't have an automatic vote, unless EVERY other country votes yes, it may be still blocked by the "big two".

Also worth noting is that if you put Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Denmark, Finland, Greece, Ireland, Malta, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain and Sweden together, you only get 121million, nowhere close to the 35% needed to block a vote, so we really would be powerless.

roadruner

Vote yes for the Lesbian treaty.

Or this will happen to you

Scofflaw

the_syco wrote: »

I voted yes in the last one, but may vote no in the next one (you're naive if you don't think there'll be a second one), after watching this video.

14:00 - The first being that EU law will always be right. This means that if Irish law says no, and EU law says yes, then Irish law also says yes. In Austria, referendums are illegal. Now, if this was EU law, we wouldn't be allowed to hold referendums. This is not at all good.

Hmm. First, EU law has had primacy over Irish law since 1973. Second, EU law is not superior to our Constitution, because the Constitution is the supreme instrument of Irish sovereignty, which is why we need to amend it to allow ratification of EU treaties.

the_syco wrote: »

49:35 - Qualified Majority Voiting (QMV) puts the power into the larger states, as it despends on the population count of the countries. SO basically, England, France

To pass a law, 15 out of the 27 countries must vote yes. Also, those 15 countries must have 65% of the EU population.

To block a law, 4 out of 27 countries must vote no. Also these need 35% of the EU opulation (EU's FAQ page "forgets" to include this). 35% = 171million. German & France = 147million. Still 24million short, but adding any other two countries would bring it up. So although they don't have an automatic vote, unless EVERY other country votes yes, it may be still blocked by the "big two".

Also worth noting is that if you put Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Denmark, Finland, Greece, Ireland, Malta, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain and Sweden together, you only get 121million, nowhere close to the 35% needed to block a vote, so we really would be powerless.

First, we usually vote with France on agriculture, the British on tax, and so on. We don't side with small countries against big ones.

Second, the existing QMV system also contains a population requirement.

Third, any proper analysis of the new and old QMV systems (as done by IrlConor in this forum) shows that the difference between them is actually quite subtle - as in a couple of percent change, usually - and that we gain in influence relative to some countries (12), lose relative to others (14). Whether the new QMV rules are better or worse for Ireland depends on what we are voting on, because that determines who our allies and opponents are.

Finally, QMV is actually used only a quarter of the time it actually applies - 75% of the time no vote is taken, and instead a consensus is developed. Our influence in Europe has never depended on our QMV weight, which has always been tiny, but on our ability to broker and develop a consensus.

cordially,
Scofflaw

the_syco

roadruner wrote: »

Vote yes for the Lesbian treaty.

Or this will happen to you

Hope you don't think just cos you're across the pond that you're safe to threaten me...

Scofflaw wrote: »

Hmm

Cheers for the info. Some nice stuff there.

PrivateEye

roadruner wrote: »

Vote yes for the Lesbian treaty.

Or this will happen to you

Vote yes for the (second running of..)..the Lisbon Treaty
http://blogs.trb.com/news/politics/blog/Sarkozy%20addresses%20Congress%20small-thumb
Or he won't like us and will get upset

Democracy Is Coming To The Sar-Ko-Zey.

zig

the_syco wrote: »

49:35 - Qualified Majority Voiting (QMV) puts the power into the larger states, as it despends on the population count of the countries. SO basically, England, France

To pass a law, 15 out of the 27 countries must vote yes. Also, those 15 countries must have 65% of the EU population.

To block a law, 4 out of 27 countries must vote no. Also these need 35% of the EU opulation (EU's FAQ page "forgets" to include this). 35% = 171million. German & France = 147million. Still 24million short, but adding any other two countries would bring it up.

Granted the big countries have more power to block a law, but I think its more important that we have power in passing a law, and yes while 65% is required , the fact that 15 out of the 27 countries is also required gives us alot of power as a state. The question is, do we trust our own government to have the courage to ever go against the grain if our population didnt like something that was going to be passed. Because they will be the ones making decisions.

I did vote yes last time, I probably will again, but it was refreshing to see HONEST reasons to vote no from a former yes voter. I'm still open to changing my mind to be honest.

If there is another referendum I reckon it will be campaigned alot more honestly on both sides.

zig

Scofflaw wrote: »

Second, the existing QMV system also contains a population requirement.

Hi Scofflaw, I never knew this, just wondering what is this requirement.

Darragh29

the_syco wrote: »

I voted yes in the last one, but may vote no in the next one (you're naive if you don't think there'll be a second one), after watching this video.

14:00 - The first being that EU law will always be right. This means that if Irish law says no, and EU law says yes, then Irish law also says yes. In Austria, referendums are illegal. Now, if this was EU law, we wouldn't be allowed to hold referendums. This is not at all good.

49:35 - Qualified Majority Voiting (QMV) puts the power into the larger states, as it despends on the population count of the countries. SO basically, England, France

To pass a law, 15 out of the 27 countries must vote yes. Also, those 15 countries must have 65% of the EU population.

To block a law, 4 out of 27 countries must vote no. Also these need 35% of the EU opulation (EU's FAQ page "forgets" to include this). 35% = 171million. German & France = 147million. Still 24million short, but adding any other two countries would bring it up. So although they don't have an automatic vote, unless EVERY other country votes yes, it may be still blocked by the "big two".

Also worth noting is that if you put Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Denmark, Finland, Greece, Ireland, Malta, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain and Sweden together, you only get 121million, nowhere close to the 35% needed to block a vote, so we really would be powerless.

This is the best explained bit of information I've seen in the whole debate since this thing started...

IRLConor

the_syco wrote: »

To block a law, 4 out of 27 countries must vote no. Also these need 35% of the EU opulation (EU's FAQ page "forgets" to include this). 35% = 171million. German & France = 147million.

They mix up two different types of blocking vote there.

There are at least six different types of voting that go on in the council.

Two methods allow blocking votes.

1. TEU 16 (4) is used for most votes and a blocking vote under this method consists of four countries. There is no population requirement.
2. TFEU 238 (3) (a) is used for votes under enhanced cooperation only. To make a blocking minority there must be countries representing 35% of the population represented by the enhanced cooperation group plus one other member.

I've just re-watched that section of the video. It's nonsense. The people who made it clearly do not understand the treaty. Either that or they're wilfully misrepresenting it for political gain. Whichever it is, I wouldn't believe a word out of their mouths if I were you.

Kovik

The people who made it clearly do not understand the treaty.

Not to mention, they clearly don't understand basic principles of film production.

IRLConor

Kovik wrote: »

Not to mention, they clearly don't understand basic principles of film production.

That's a little unfair. If they were actually telling the truth I'd certainly let that slip.