Ok, now please leave EU

sopranos

Ok, you voted No to the Lisbon treaty. Good, now pleae leave EU. Go back to cultivate potatoes, say goodbye to EU funds and laws. Go back drinking your Guinness and do not interfere anymore with EU stuff.

Bye Bye Irish.

soprano

Dotsie~tmp

Vai a fare in culo!

gixerfixer

Fat Tony is that you? Did that guy who went into the jacks in the last episode come back out and shoot you? Did he huh,did he?

Kev_ps3

sopranos wrote: »

Ok, you voted No to the Lisbon treaty. Good, now pleae leave EU. Go back to cultivate potatoes, say goodbye to EU funds and laws. Go back drinking your Guinness and do not interfere anymore with EU stuff.

Bye Bye Irish.

soprano

Thanks, I would love if we left the EU!

force eleven

sopranos wrote: »

Ok, you voted No to the Lisbon treaty. Good, now pleae leave EU. Go back to cultivate potatoes, say goodbye to EU funds and laws. Go back drinking your Guinness and do not interfere anymore with EU stuff.

Bye Bye Irish.

soprano

Yes, proper Irish spuds, no EU laws specifying what pesticides to use, and what shape they are and what colour they should be. Sheesh.
And Guinness? The EU have decreed what percentage of hops malt and barley should make a good pint in their minds. If we left the EU, you'd get a quality pint for the first time in years.
Y'know, the idea could catch on. Thanks OP.:D

Cionád

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Thanks, I would love if we left the EU!

Yeah, the economy would soar once Intel, Microsoft, Ebay, Pfizer, Hewlett Packard, etc pull out of this "gateway to europe".

Talliesin

*yawn* Anyone can play that one.

E.g. "You support the Lisbon Treaty, why don't you just leave the EU rather than force a bad treaty upon it".

Or, for Eurosceptics you could say "You voted No on the Lisbon treaty, I hate people like you trying to keep Europe strong".

Pretty much the whole matrix of Yes/No matched with Pro-/Anti-EU can be satisfied with a variant of this "argument", depending on whether you want to label the treaty a good or bad thing. It's not really an argument at all, is it?

Of course, given that this has been a referendum debated on the opposing platforms of "Vote No or the sky will fall on our heads!" vs. "Vote Yes. Because, that's why!" I suppose it's in keeping with the zeitgeist.

Kev_ps3

Cionád wrote: »

Yeah, the economy would soar once Intel, Microsoft, Ebay, Pfizer, Hewlett Packard, etc pull out of this "gateway to europe".

why would they pull out? do the swiss have no international companys in them?

Carlow52

sopranos wrote: »

Ok, you voted No to the Lisbon treaty. Good, now pleae leave EU. Go back to cultivate potatoes, say goodbye to EU funds and laws. Go back drinking your Guinness and do not interfere anymore with EU stuff.

Bye Bye Irish.

soprano

Tu tranceulo is ameuga:D:D

sopranos

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Thanks, I would love if we left the EU!

The "real" problem is probably you Irish don't feel Europeans because actually you are NOT Europeans. Even here in this forum you can read people wondering if they feel more US or EU or British or just proud Irish. Sorry, that's not the spirit of Europe.

You're the only country geographically separated from the rest of the Union and you probably don't understand what means being European today, on 2008. You didn't have a post war dream, you didn't try to slowly build the future of a whole big nation without any more inside wars. You didn't see the excitement of a wall teared down, or the joy of thousand of eastern Europeans joining EU in 2004, after an half century of communism. You don't know what does it mean living today in cities like Berlin, Paris, Vienna or Varsaw.

Your contact with Europe is a plastic 20euro RyanAir flight seat which brings you to some remote cheap hangaar out of the big European cities. The same flight which maybe carries a "goodbye British" or "ciao Alitalia" advertising on his fuselage.

But it seems you didn't dislike EU when millions of euro of investments arrived, when a poor last-of-the-list country rose up to one of the most modern technology centers of Europe. The same laws which spoils your pints of Guiness have broughts wealth, worker rights, economy control, stability and security. And moreover, today we do have a voice in the world. Just 20 years ago Russians and Americans controlled everything.

That's Europan Union today, take it or loose it.

ciao, soprano

Heinrich

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

why would they pull out? do the swiss have no international companys in them?

They have one or two! They have the odd Swiss one as well - Brown Boveri, Firmenich, Oerlikon...

They also have three major languages but that's irrelevant.:D:p

force eleven

sopranos wrote: »

The "real" problem is probably you Irish don't feel Europeans because actually you are NOT Europeans. Even here in this forum you can read people wondering if they feel more US or EU or British or just proud Irish. Sorry, that's not the spirit of Europe.

You're the only country geographically separated from the rest of the Union and you probably don't understand what means being European today, on 2008. You didn't have a post war dream, you didn't try to slowly build the future of a whole big nation without any more inside wars. You didn't see the excitement of a wall teared down, or the joy of thousand of eastern Europeans joining EU in 2004, after an half century of communism. You don't know what does it mean living today in cities like Berlin, Paris, Vienna or Varsaw.

Your contact with Europe is a plastic 20euro RyanAir flight seat which brings you to some remote cheap hangaar out of the big European cities. The same flight which maybe carries a "goodbye British" or "ciao Alitalia" advertising on his fuselage.

But it seems you didn't dislike EU when millions of euro of investments arrived, when a poor last-of-the-list country rose up to one of the most modern technology centers of Europe. The same laws which spoils your pints of Guiness have broughts wealth, worker rights, economy control, stability and security. And moreover, today we do have a voice in the world. Just 20 years ago Russians and Americans controlled everything.

That's Europan Union today, take it or loose it.

ciao, soprano

Jose Manuel? Is that you?

Not all Europeans feel the way you do. They can see through the sham the EU has become. It wasn't always like that, it was a relevent and important institution for trade, business and the economy in general. Now it wants to control the economy, control the social fabric of Europe, control the way everything is done. I don't want that quite frankly.

Caoimhín

sopranos wrote: »

Ok, you voted No to the Lisbon treaty. Good, now pleae leave EU. Go back to cultivate potatoes, say goodbye to EU funds and laws. Go back drinking your Guinness and do not interfere anymore with EU stuff.

Bye Bye Irish.

soprano

I have just finished cultivating my potatoes and now im going to eat a big plate of spuds, bacon and cabbage all washed down by a big pint of the said Guinness.

turgon

sopranos wrote: »

You're the only country geographically separated from the rest of the Union

I really like this one. I suppose a land bridge was built between Britain and France while we were debating the Lisbon Treaty? And a land bridge was built between Malta and Italy? And tell me how is the South American French department of French Guiana geographically connected to Europe?

For the sake of the EU, I hope this guy doesn't actually work there.

sopranos wrote: »

You didn't have a post war dream

As far as I remember sopranos, Sweden Spain and Portugal also had no "post war dream", because they weren't actually in WWII.

sopranos wrote: »

That's Europan Union today, take it or loose it.

Finally sopranos, I dont know if you are aware, but we actually werent voting on membership of the EU. Your mindframe would be to force us to accept everything Europe throws at us.

thecaptain

sopranos wrote: »

Ok, you voted No to the Lisbon treaty. Good, now pleae leave EU. Go back to cultivate potatoes, say goodbye to EU funds and laws. Go back drinking your Guinness and do not interfere anymore with EU stuff.

Bye Bye Irish.

soprano

Fine by me mate.

You are welcome to your police states.

sopranos

turgon wrote: »

I really like this one. I suppose a land bridge was built between Britain and France while we were debating the Lisbon Treaty? And a land bridge was built between Malta and Italy? And tell me how is the South American French department of French Guiana geographically connected to Europe?

There's the EuroTunnel between England and France, and the Oresund bridge between Denmark and Sweden. And oh yes, I forgot Malta, Cyprus and Guyana. Ok, right, Ireland, Malta, Cyprus and the Guyanas are the only gegraphical separated countries in Europe. How do you like it now?

turgon wrote: »

For the sake of the EU, I hope this guy doesn't actually work there.

I don't work for EU, I'm just an European citizen like (still) you are.

turgon wrote: »

As far as I remember sopranos, Sweden Spain and Portugal also had no "post war dream", because they weren't actually in WWII.

Indeed the whole idea of big Europe was born in the central states (France, Italy, Germany, Belgium) which realized how such a dream may have been the biggest improvement of our times.

turgon wrote: »

Finally sopranos, I dont know if you are aware, but we actually werent voting on membership of the EU. Your mindframe would be to force us to accept everything Europe throws at us.

This was a clear vote anti-EU. Maybe you don't like to see it like this, but that's the fact.

turgon

sopranos wrote: »

This was a clear vote anti-EU. Maybe you don't like to see it like this, but that's the fact.

What you must realize sopranos is that this boards returned a majority against in a poll, and you have now completely, utterly and wholly discredited yourself among this majority.

Your failure to grasp that Ireland was not the only isolated country, and that Ireland was not the only neutral country in WWII, seriously casts doubts on whether you actually know what you talking about, imo. The fact that you think that everyone that voted No were Euroskeptics only adds to this.

You say maybe I dont like to see it like this. Well the fact of the matter is (and it is a fact you wont like) is that I voted No, despite that that I am committed to the EU project. The reasons I have voted no have been layed out numerous times: I dont like a militarized EU, and it is still un-democratic. But of course, that makes me a Euroskeptic. Much like in Stalins Russia, if you criticize a part of the system, you criticize the whole system itself :rolleyes:

Sopranos=
Stalin Mussolini Putin Franko Castro

dsane1

Hey op i suppose you voted yes ? o thats right you didnt have a vote did you lol

IRLConor

sopranos wrote: »

This was a clear vote anti-EU. Maybe you don't like to see it like this, but that's the fact.

It wasn't a clear vote pro- or anti- anything.

• Very few people read the treaty.
• Loads of people voted one way or another based purely on what a political party or lobby group told them.
• Loads of people voted yes because they didn't like the people campaigning for a no.
• Loads of people voted no because they didn't like the government.
• A large proportion of people voted despite not knowing how the institutions that they were modifying (or not modifying) work.

and they're just the things I can quickly think of off the top of my head. There are loads of reasons (both legitimate and spurious) why people voted one way or another.

The only clear thing is that 752,451 people voted for the amendment and 862,415 voted against it. Pretending that there was some clear overriding reason why there was a majority no vote is oversimplifying the matter.

irish_bob

sopranos wrote: »

The "real" problem is probably you Irish don't feel Europeans because actually you are NOT Europeans. Even here in this forum you can read people wondering if they feel more US or EU or British or just proud Irish. Sorry, that's not the spirit of Europe.

You're the only country geographically separated from the rest of the Union and you probably don't understand what means being European today, on 2008. You didn't have a post war dream, you didn't try to slowly build the future of a whole big nation without any more inside wars. You didn't see the excitement of a wall teared down, or the joy of thousand of eastern Europeans joining EU in 2004, after an half century of communism. You don't know what does it mean living today in cities like Berlin, Paris, Vienna or Varsaw.

Your contact with Europe is a plastic 20euro RyanAir flight seat which brings you to some remote cheap hangaar out of the big European cities. The same flight which maybe carries a "goodbye British" or "ciao Alitalia" advertising on his fuselage.

But it seems you didn't dislike EU when millions of euro of investments arrived, when a poor last-of-the-list country rose up to one of the most modern technology centers of Europe. The same laws which spoils your pints of Guiness have broughts wealth, worker rights, economy control, stability and security. And moreover, today we do have a voice in the world. Just 20 years ago Russians and Americans controlled everything.

That's Europan Union today, take it or loose it.

ciao, soprano

if your post was delivered with more suttelty and less obvious contempt , i would agree with your summarry 100%

most irish people,s only interest in europe was what they could get out of it

as someone who lives in the country and who grew up on a farm , that certainly is how farmers feel about it

sopranos

turgon wrote: »

You say maybe I dont like to see it like this. Well the fact of the matter is (and it is a fact you wont like) is that I voted No, despite that that I am committed to the EU project. The reasons I have voted no have been layed out numerous times: I dont like a militarized EU, and it is still un-democratic. But of course, that makes me a Euroskeptic. Much like in Stalins Russia, if you criticize a part of the system, you criticize the whole system itself :rolleyes:

So, you voted no to a Treaty which will be approved by all the other 26 European countries. This Treaty doesn't state anything about militarization and otherwise promotes more power for a political subject which bases its constitution on the rejection to the war.

And the reason of your vote is that you don't like a militarized EU.

Well you understand everything.

turgon wrote: »

Sopranos=
Stalin Mussolini Putin Franko Castro

That's was good. At least you didn't come out with the obvious association soprano-mafia

Lemming

sopranos wrote: »

So, you voted no to a Treaty which will be approved by all the other 26 European countries.

To date only 18 countries have ratified it. To say that all 26 will - without doubt - ratify it is the height of absolute arrogance. Until all 26 other nations ratify it your bluster amounts to precisely dick.

Well you understand everything.

Clearly he understands a bit more about the concept of democracy than you do. Perhaps you'd like to live in a theocracy and be told what to do and run along like a good little citizen? Because that's exactly what the reaction from the EU inner circle is like right now. And they have no right to do so.

It was stated that the unanimous consent of all 27 nations was required to pass this treaty. Now suddenly they want to find away around that because Ireland gave "the wrong answer" to the one that they wanted. We were allowed to vote any way we wanted so long as it was "Yes" :rolleyes:

That is not democracy. Nor is it democratic. I'd remark that it serves as an alarming wake-up call to Europe at large.

Further I would like to ask you, sopranos, since you clearly have your finger on the pulse of Europe and speak as one highly reasoned and intelligent voice for 500-odd million people;

Why didn't you call for France and the Netherlands to be kicked out of the EU because they didn't give "the right answer" when the consitution was put to them three years ago?

Can you spell "Hypocracy"?

kleefarr

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Thanks, I would love if we left the EU!

Only one problem with that....


They would ask for all of the money back.

Lemming

kleefarr wrote: »

Only one problem with that....


They would ask for all of the money back.

We could ask for all ours back. I seem to recall someone posting the numbers here recently:

€40 billion received.
Circa €120 billion given back in fisheries rights to other countries.

I could be wrong of course.

Regardless, leaving the EU would be a rash decision as would the EU ejecting Ireland since it would send a very worrying message to every single country in Europe. Do what the EU says "or else". And since the EU claims to be a democratic institution (and from the level of vitriol I've witnessed over the last few days I'm starting to loose faith and question my 'yes' vote) that would be a bad thing both at home and on the world stage.

biko

"The Italian government has defended its decision to use soldiers to patrol cities in an effort to curb crime, rejecting criticism that it will "militarise" the streets. The government announced that up to 2,500 soldiers, some of whom have served in Afghanistan, would be made available for a trial period of 6 months to help police in difficult areas".

When you use military against your own citizens then something isn't working.

IRLConor

biko wrote: »

"The Italian government has defended its decision to use soldiers to patrol cities in an effort to curb crime, rejecting criticism that it will "militarise" the streets. The government announced that up to 2,500 soldiers, some of whom have served in Afghanistan, would be made available for a trial period of 6 months to help police in difficult areas".

When you use military against your own citizens then something isn't working.

We've been doing that for years with cash-in-transit.

Does it mean our banking system is militarised?

Lemming

IRLConor wrote: »

We've been doing that for years with cash-in-transit.

Does it mean our banking system is militarised?

There is a large fundamental difference between providing security on a bank transfer and deploying soldiers onto the streets to act as a police force.

Wildly large fundamental difference that I should have thought obvious.

Scofflaw

Lemming wrote: »

We could ask for all ours back. I seem to recall someone posting the numbers here recently:

€40 billion received.
Circa €120 billion given back in fisheries rights to other countries.

I could be wrong of course.

You could well be quoting the original post correctly, but that doesn't make the original figure correct. The first estimate of the value of Irish fisheries I saw in this referendum was €16bn.

Even that low estimate was simply based on a back-projection of the value of fish landed by the whole of EU from Irish waters. It didn't take into account the small size of the Irish fishing industry, the cost of fishing, or the investment required to expand the industry to a size equivalent to the fishing fleets of all the other EU nations.

Nor does it take into account that the EU subsidies, being effectively free money, allowed us to run a low-tax regime that successfully encouraged business while allowing us to build the supporting infrastructure. Money from fishing would not have had the same effect - the state would have had available only the tax take on it - call it 25%, or €4bn over 35 years (€114 million/year).

Nor does it really answer the question - would you like to be a fisherman? Would you like a fishing-dominated economy?

And, as usual - source for the €16bn figure. Note that it's derived by simply multiplying the 2005 annual value of catches in the Irish EEZ (€460m) by 35 years. Further, it ignores the fact that 30% of the value there went to the Irish fleet anyway.

Lemming wrote: »

Regardless, leaving the EU would be a rash decision as would the EU ejecting Ireland since it would send a very worrying message to every single country in Europe. Do what the EU says "or else". And since the EU claims to be a democratic institution (and from the level of vitriol I've witnessed over the last few days I'm starting to loose faith and question my 'yes' vote) that would be a bad thing both at home and on the world stage.

Those who negotiated the treaty, or who were pinning their hopes on its ratification, will probably be sulky for a while, particularly if they're French. It has no bearing on whether the EU is democratic.

Ratification has to continue as a statement of faith in the EU. If the ratification process simply stops, then effectively the EU project is simply halted, with no plan B. The Lisbon Treaty will not be enforced on Ireland, but it is vital that all other countries finish the ratification process as an earnest of their intent to reform the EU.

cordially,
Scofflaw

turgon

sopranos wrote: »

So, you voted no to a Treaty which will be approved by all the other 26 European countries.

Let me get this straight: you are saying I should have voted yes simply because the other states have?

sopranos wrote: »

This Treaty doesn't state anything about militarization

This guy knows so much about the Treaty, I think it would be fair to make him mod of the Europe forum. Or lets just see for a second:

Consolidated Treaty of Lisbon wrote:

Treaty on European Unions - Article 42

2. The common security and defence policy shall include the progressive framing of a common Union defence policy. This will lead to a common defence...

3. Member States shall make civilian and military capabilities available to the Union for the implementation of the common security and defence policy...

...Member States shall undertake progressively to improve their military capabilities...

7. If a Member State is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other Member States shall have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power, in accordance with Article 51 of the United Nations Charter. This shall not prejudice the specific character of the security and defence policy of certain Member States.

Definitely nothing about the military in the Treaty of Lisbon:rolleyes:

d2x2

Lemming wrote: »

Can you spell "Hypocracy"?

H.Y.P.O.C.R.I.S.Y.

IRLConor

Lemming wrote: »

There is a large fundamental difference between providing security on a bank transfer and deploying soldiers onto the streets to act as a police force.

Wildly large fundamental difference that I should have thought obvious.

Perhaps I was a little quick and trying to be facetious.

Seriously though, what's the "magic difference" between deploying the ERU in flak jackets, balaclavas and helmets on Irish streets and deploying Italian troops on Italian streets. Does the fact that the ERU guys reported to the Garda commissioner and the Italian troops report to their DoD make that much of a difference?

It gets even more ridiculous to point fingers at it when you consider that the national gendarmerie of Italy, the Carabinieri are part of their armed forces. In other words, the army has been on Italian streets doing police work for centuries now.

Agent Smith

if we left the eu, it would be the greatest scam of all time.
join - get bucketloads of funding - then leave

Cow Moolester

sopranos wrote: »

There's the EuroTunnel between England and France, and the Oresund bridge between Denmark and Sweden. And oh yes, I forgot Malta, Cyprus and Guyana. Ok, right, Ireland, Malta, Cyprus and the Guyanas are the only gegraphical separated countries in Europe. How do you like it now?



I don't work for EU, I'm just an European citizen like (still) you are.



Indeed the whole idea of big Europe was born in the central states (France, Italy, Germany, Belgium) which realized how such a dream may have been the biggest improvement of our times.



This was a clear vote anti-EU. Maybe you don't like to see it like this, but that's the fact.

Sopranos I respect your view but it is flawed. This was not an anti-EU vote.

Of course Ireland would have its core values in mind when deciding which way to vote. This is a predominantly Catholic country where many do not want to see abortion brought in to law. Thats one reason for voting no.
A second reason for voting no was because of the militarisation of Europe. We are a neutral country and would prefer to stay that way.

Thirdly, the way the EU and our government handled the campaign wasn't done well. The people weren't informed well and that is as much the EU commission's fault as our government. If they wanted this treaty to be passed then they would have made sure everyone was informed.

And finally, the way this has all been handled is fundamentally undemocratic. Every country would be giving a lot of power to unelected officials in Brussels.

You say Ireland should leave the EU? What about France and the dutch who voted against the Nice Treaty? Infact the French government wouldn't give the people a vote on this because they knew it would be voted against.

I find the argument "how can less than 1% of Europe halt progress for 490 million people" . Well similarly, how can 1 parliament in each country make the decision for millions of people in their country? There were protests outside the English parliament asking for a vote on it but Britain's foreign minister said that the parliament has England's best interests in mind and it didn't need to be voted on. How democratic is that?
How democratic is it when 1 member state has less of a voting weight than other countries just based on its size?

Scofflaw

IRLConor wrote: »

Perhaps I was a little quick and trying to be facetious.

Seriously though, what's the "magic difference" between deploying the ERU in flak jackets, balaclavas and helmets on Irish streets and deploying Italian troops on Italian streets. Does the fact that the ERU guys reported to the Garda commissioner and the Italian troops report to their DoD make that much of a difference?

It gets even more ridiculous to point fingers at it when you consider that the national gendarmerie of Italy, the Carabinieri are part of their armed forces. In other words, the army has been on Italian streets doing police work for centuries now.

Also, it's been suggested repeatedly that we deploy the Army on the streets in the worst areas of Limerick.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Lemming

IRLConor wrote: »

Perhaps I was a little quick and trying to be facetious.

Seriously though, what's the "magic difference" between deploying the ERU in flak jackets, balaclavas and helmets on Irish streets and deploying Italian troops on Italian streets. Does the fact that the ERU guys reported to the Garda commissioner and the Italian troops report to their DoD make that much of a difference?

The ERU are Gardai. Just a very specialist section therein.

It gets even more ridiculous to point fingers at it when you consider that the national gendarmerie of Italy, the Carabinieri are part of their armed forces. In other words, the army has been on Italian streets doing police work for centuries now.

The Carabinieri as a paramilitary police force. The emphasis is on police. They are a recognised police force. The army as an entity are not. Nor are they trained to be.

iPoker

sopranos wrote: »

The "real" problem is probably you Irish don't feel Europeans because actually you are NOT Europeans. Even here in this forum you can read people wondering if they feel more US or EU or British or just proud Irish. Sorry, that's not the spirit of Europe.

You're the only country geographically separated from the rest of the Union and you probably don't understand what means being European today, on 2008. You didn't have a post war dream, you didn't try to slowly build the future of a whole big nation without any more inside wars. You didn't see the excitement of a wall teared down, or the joy of thousand of eastern Europeans joining EU in 2004, after an half century of communism. You don't know what does it mean living today in cities like Berlin, Paris, Vienna or Varsaw.

Your contact with Europe is a plastic 20euro RyanAir flight seat which brings you to some remote cheap hangaar out of the big European cities. The same flight which maybe carries a "goodbye British" or "ciao Alitalia" advertising on his fuselage.

But it seems you didn't dislike EU when millions of euro of investments arrived, when a poor last-of-the-list country rose up to one of the most modern technology centers of Europe. The same laws which spoils your pints of Guiness have broughts wealth, worker rights, economy control, stability and security. And moreover, today we do have a voice in the world. Just 20 years ago Russians and Americans controlled everything.

That's Europan Union today, take it or loose it.

ciao, soprano

Are we the only country geographically separated? Are we geographically separated? We didn't have inside wars? Have we not been in Europe for 35 years?

You need Geography/History 101

iPoker

sopranos wrote: »

There's the EuroTunnel between England and France, and the Oresund bridge between Denmark and Sweden. And oh yes, I forgot Malta, Cyprus and Guyana. Ok, right, Ireland, Malta, Cyprus and the Guyanas are the only gegraphical separated countries in Europe. How do you like it now?

So a rail connection implies the UK (who are far less European than Irish) has borders with France? How bizarre in 2008! Maybe in the 1800's!

hatrickpatrick

So, you voted no to a Treaty which will be approved by all the other 26 European countries.

Wrong. Get this straight: As far as democracy goes, NO other state has ratified the Lisbon Treaty. IReland is simply the only country in which the political elite aren't able to pass such a treaty without the consent of the people. In fact, it has been admitted numerous times that the treaty was worded specifically so the French wouldn't be obliged to call a referendum on it - because they knew full well that it'd be rejected if they did.

Governments want a United States of europe. Ordinary citizens want the monetary union the EU was originally meant to be. Interfering on domestic and social policy is EXACTLY what the Lisbon treaty was promoting - and EXACTLY what the EU was supposed to be steering clear of.

Ireland is governed from Dublin, not from Brussels.

CtrlSource

sopranos wrote: »

So, you voted no to a Treaty which will be approved by all the other 26 European countries.

i wouldn't be so sure about it being ratified by all 26, if i was you. But even if it is, none of them look likely to actually hold a popular vote. It will just be their politicans coming under enormous pressure from the Commission to ratify. How can that be 'in the spirit of Europe', eh?

Did you feel as strongly as you do now when France and the Netherlands rejected the EU Constitution in '05?

iPoker

turgon wrote: »

Your failure to grasp that Ireland was not the only isolated country

was there ever any doubt?

IRLConor

Lemming wrote: »

The ERU are Gardai. Just a very specialist section therein.

Are they so different from an MP though? Really? Is there something magic once you are in the army that makes you a threat to the local populace?

Lemming wrote: »

The Carabinieri as a paramilitary police force. The emphasis is on police. They are a recognised police force. The army as an entity are not. Nor are they trained to be.

How do you know that the troops they're going to deploy aren't MPs?

Lemming

Scofflaw wrote: »

Those who negotiated the treaty, or who were pinning their hopes on its ratification, will probably be sulky for a while, particularly if they're French. It has no bearing on whether the EU is democratic.

It does when they behave in a vengeful way in public and attempt to whip up public hysteria to that effect, as we have witnessed. It is, to put it bluntly, unstateman-like and utterly unhelpful as all it does is cause polarity.

Ratification has to continue as a statement of faith in the EU. If the ratification process simply stops, then effectively the EU project is simply halted, with no plan B. The Lisbon Treaty will not be enforced on Ireland, but it is vital that all other countries finish the ratification process as an earnest of their intent to reform the EU.

If ratification continues as is, despite all of the statements by the EU on consensus, then it is not a democratic act. And to be perfectly honest, politicians claiming to have no plan 'B' is inept laziness of a very worrying kind. It's their job to come up with alternatives.

I voted yes to the treaty, but as I've said - the amount of vitriolic bile and talk of ignoring the referendum result has given me pause for thought. And on that basis along I would be far more hesitant to vote yes to subsequent referenda on this matter. Not because of any text but on the point that the EU institutions and its leaders themselves have displayed a willingness to ignore their own stated democratic ideals when expediency suits them.

iPoker

dsane1 wrote: »

Hey op i suppose you voted yes ? o thats right you didnt have a vote did you lol

Sad to see a No Vote, purely from how other Europeans appear to be, on the whole, taking it. But very glad we had a Vote....maybe if Ireland was thrown out, the Europe could then proceed as a dictatorship??

iPoker

sopranos wrote: »

So, you voted no to a Treaty which will be approved by all the other 26 European countries. This Treaty doesn't state anything about militarization and otherwise promotes more power for a political subject which bases its constitution on the rejection to the war.

And the reason of your vote is that you don't like a militarized EU.

Well you understand everything.




That's was good. At least you didn't come out with the obvious association soprano-mafia

This being, in essence, the same contract rejected by Holland and France...of course, they do not now have the RIGHT to decide! Maybe Ireland should leave Europe if it is the only way to safeguard our democracy

Lemming

IRLConor wrote: »

Are they so different from an MP though? Really? Is there something magic once you are in the army that makes you a threat to the local populace?

There's a reason why most countries have a separation of police and military. I suggest you go look into it. Suffice to say to be a member of the ERU you must first be a Garda. Military police are oriented towards policing of military matters - hence why the Gardai do not police the military.

How do you know that the troops they're going to deploy aren't MPs?

How do you know they are?

iPoker

biko wrote: »

"The Italian government has defended its decision to use soldiers to patrol cities in an effort to curb crime, rejecting criticism that it will "militarise" the streets. The government announced that up to 2,500 soldiers, some of whom have served in Afghanistan, would be made available for a trial period of 6 months to help police in difficult areas".

When you use military against your own citizens then something isn't working.

is there anything new in this?

SkepticOne

I think one of the positive aspects of the No result is that the people of Ireland are now going to gain an understanding of their standing in Europe. Previously people had the belief that they were at the centre of Europe, a small country but in a union of equals.

turgon

iPoker wrote: »

So a rail connection implies the UK (who are far less European than Irish) has borders with France? How bizarre in 2008! Maybe in the 1800's!

Well the funny thing about the whole fallout after the No vote is how much of a scapegoat Ireland has become. I have No doubt at least a handful of other countries would have returned No.

Think about this - 160 of 166 Irish TD's voted YES - Result: NO
But only 346 out of 646 (including absentees) British MPs voted YES - I wonder what a referendum would give there?

billy the squid

sopranos wrote: »

Ok, you voted No to the Lisbon treaty. Good, now pleae leave EU. Go back to cultivate potatoes, say goodbye to EU funds and laws. Go back drinking your Guinness and do not interfere anymore with EU stuff.

Bye Bye Irish.

soprano

Translation:

So long, and thanks for all the fish.

rollie

sopranos wrote: »

The "real" problem is probably you Irish don't feel Europeans because actually you are NOT Europeans. Even here in this forum you can read people wondering if they feel more US or EU or British or just proud Irish. Sorry, that's not the spirit of Europe.

You're the only country geographically separated from the rest of the Union and you probably don't understand what means being European today, on 2008. You didn't have a post war dream, you didn't try to slowly build the future of a whole big nation without any more inside wars. You didn't see the excitement of a wall teared down, or the joy of thousand of eastern Europeans joining EU in 2004, after an half century of communism. You don't know what does it mean living today in cities like Berlin, Paris, Vienna or Varsaw.

Your contact with Europe is a plastic 20euro RyanAir flight seat which brings you to some remote cheap hangaar out of the big European cities. The same flight which maybe carries a "goodbye British" or "ciao Alitalia" advertising on his fuselage.

But it seems you didn't dislike EU when millions of euro of investments arrived, when a poor last-of-the-list country rose up to one of the most modern technology centers of Europe. The same laws which spoils your pints of Guiness have broughts wealth, worker rights, economy control, stability and security. And moreover, today we do have a voice in the world. Just 20 years ago Russians and Americans controlled everything.

That's Europan Union today, take it or loose it.

ciao, soprano

cry me a river...europe today is lots of things, and you're not going to loose us because that would be the first obvious failure of a developing democracy and would lead to global euroskepticism.

your argument whacks of desperation...them big bad commies ain't coming over the river for the foreseeable future

Agent Smith wrote: »

if we left the eu, it would be the greatest scam of all time.
join - get bucketloads of funding - then leave

now who told the foreigner about our not so sly master plan

IRLConor

Lemming wrote: »

There's a reason why most countries have a separation of police and military. I suggest you go look into it.

Lots of countries do, lots of countries don't. In most cases it boils down to a historic reason one way or the other.

In Ireland, the military has "Aid to the civil power" as part of the mission statement of the defence forces.
In the US, it's strictly separated by law and the argument is strongly intertwined with states' rights arguments.
In France, Italy, Spain and the Netherlands (at a quick glance) there are national gendarmeries which are either under military control or have a long military heritage and training.

Different countries have different ways of handling policing and make their own choices on whether they separate military and police powers. Shouldn't we just respect their decision until it's shown to be unwise?

Lemming wrote: »

How do you know they are [MPs]?

I don't. I just contend that the assumption that deploying troops on the streets is a bad thing is not a safe assumption to make until you know the actual details.