Ok, now please leave EU

Agent Smith

if we left the eu, it would be the greatest scam of all time.
join - get bucketloads of funding - then leave

Cow Moolester

sopranos wrote: »

There's the EuroTunnel between England and France, and the Oresund bridge between Denmark and Sweden. And oh yes, I forgot Malta, Cyprus and Guyana. Ok, right, Ireland, Malta, Cyprus and the Guyanas are the only gegraphical separated countries in Europe. How do you like it now?



I don't work for EU, I'm just an European citizen like (still) you are.



Indeed the whole idea of big Europe was born in the central states (France, Italy, Germany, Belgium) which realized how such a dream may have been the biggest improvement of our times.



This was a clear vote anti-EU. Maybe you don't like to see it like this, but that's the fact.

Sopranos I respect your view but it is flawed. This was not an anti-EU vote.

Of course Ireland would have its core values in mind when deciding which way to vote. This is a predominantly Catholic country where many do not want to see abortion brought in to law. Thats one reason for voting no.
A second reason for voting no was because of the militarisation of Europe. We are a neutral country and would prefer to stay that way.

Thirdly, the way the EU and our government handled the campaign wasn't done well. The people weren't informed well and that is as much the EU commission's fault as our government. If they wanted this treaty to be passed then they would have made sure everyone was informed.

And finally, the way this has all been handled is fundamentally undemocratic. Every country would be giving a lot of power to unelected officials in Brussels.

You say Ireland should leave the EU? What about France and the dutch who voted against the Nice Treaty? Infact the French government wouldn't give the people a vote on this because they knew it would be voted against.

I find the argument "how can less than 1% of Europe halt progress for 490 million people" . Well similarly, how can 1 parliament in each country make the decision for millions of people in their country? There were protests outside the English parliament asking for a vote on it but Britain's foreign minister said that the parliament has England's best interests in mind and it didn't need to be voted on. How democratic is that?
How democratic is it when 1 member state has less of a voting weight than other countries just based on its size?

Scofflaw

IRLConor wrote: »

Perhaps I was a little quick and trying to be facetious.

Seriously though, what's the "magic difference" between deploying the ERU in flak jackets, balaclavas and helmets on Irish streets and deploying Italian troops on Italian streets. Does the fact that the ERU guys reported to the Garda commissioner and the Italian troops report to their DoD make that much of a difference?

It gets even more ridiculous to point fingers at it when you consider that the national gendarmerie of Italy, the Carabinieri are part of their armed forces. In other words, the army has been on Italian streets doing police work for centuries now.

Also, it's been suggested repeatedly that we deploy the Army on the streets in the worst areas of Limerick.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Lemming

IRLConor wrote: »

Perhaps I was a little quick and trying to be facetious.

Seriously though, what's the "magic difference" between deploying the ERU in flak jackets, balaclavas and helmets on Irish streets and deploying Italian troops on Italian streets. Does the fact that the ERU guys reported to the Garda commissioner and the Italian troops report to their DoD make that much of a difference?

The ERU are Gardai. Just a very specialist section therein.

It gets even more ridiculous to point fingers at it when you consider that the national gendarmerie of Italy, the Carabinieri are part of their armed forces. In other words, the army has been on Italian streets doing police work for centuries now.

The Carabinieri as a paramilitary police force. The emphasis is on police. They are a recognised police force. The army as an entity are not. Nor are they trained to be.

iPoker

sopranos wrote: »

The "real" problem is probably you Irish don't feel Europeans because actually you are NOT Europeans. Even here in this forum you can read people wondering if they feel more US or EU or British or just proud Irish. Sorry, that's not the spirit of Europe.

You're the only country geographically separated from the rest of the Union and you probably don't understand what means being European today, on 2008. You didn't have a post war dream, you didn't try to slowly build the future of a whole big nation without any more inside wars. You didn't see the excitement of a wall teared down, or the joy of thousand of eastern Europeans joining EU in 2004, after an half century of communism. You don't know what does it mean living today in cities like Berlin, Paris, Vienna or Varsaw.

Your contact with Europe is a plastic 20euro RyanAir flight seat which brings you to some remote cheap hangaar out of the big European cities. The same flight which maybe carries a "goodbye British" or "ciao Alitalia" advertising on his fuselage.

But it seems you didn't dislike EU when millions of euro of investments arrived, when a poor last-of-the-list country rose up to one of the most modern technology centers of Europe. The same laws which spoils your pints of Guiness have broughts wealth, worker rights, economy control, stability and security. And moreover, today we do have a voice in the world. Just 20 years ago Russians and Americans controlled everything.

That's Europan Union today, take it or loose it.

ciao, soprano

Are we the only country geographically separated? Are we geographically separated? We didn't have inside wars? Have we not been in Europe for 35 years?

You need Geography/History 101

iPoker

sopranos wrote: »

There's the EuroTunnel between England and France, and the Oresund bridge between Denmark and Sweden. And oh yes, I forgot Malta, Cyprus and Guyana. Ok, right, Ireland, Malta, Cyprus and the Guyanas are the only gegraphical separated countries in Europe. How do you like it now?

So a rail connection implies the UK (who are far less European than Irish) has borders with France? How bizarre in 2008! Maybe in the 1800's!

hatrickpatrick

So, you voted no to a Treaty which will be approved by all the other 26 European countries.

Wrong. Get this straight: As far as democracy goes, NO other state has ratified the Lisbon Treaty. IReland is simply the only country in which the political elite aren't able to pass such a treaty without the consent of the people. In fact, it has been admitted numerous times that the treaty was worded specifically so the French wouldn't be obliged to call a referendum on it - because they knew full well that it'd be rejected if they did.

Governments want a United States of europe. Ordinary citizens want the monetary union the EU was originally meant to be. Interfering on domestic and social policy is EXACTLY what the Lisbon treaty was promoting - and EXACTLY what the EU was supposed to be steering clear of.

Ireland is governed from Dublin, not from Brussels.

CtrlSource

sopranos wrote: »

So, you voted no to a Treaty which will be approved by all the other 26 European countries.

i wouldn't be so sure about it being ratified by all 26, if i was you. But even if it is, none of them look likely to actually hold a popular vote. It will just be their politicans coming under enormous pressure from the Commission to ratify. How can that be 'in the spirit of Europe', eh?

Did you feel as strongly as you do now when France and the Netherlands rejected the EU Constitution in '05?

iPoker

turgon wrote: »

Your failure to grasp that Ireland was not the only isolated country

was there ever any doubt?

IRLConor

Lemming wrote: »

The ERU are Gardai. Just a very specialist section therein.

Are they so different from an MP though? Really? Is there something magic once you are in the army that makes you a threat to the local populace?

Lemming wrote: »

The Carabinieri as a paramilitary police force. The emphasis is on police. They are a recognised police force. The army as an entity are not. Nor are they trained to be.

How do you know that the troops they're going to deploy aren't MPs?

Lemming

Scofflaw wrote: »

Those who negotiated the treaty, or who were pinning their hopes on its ratification, will probably be sulky for a while, particularly if they're French. It has no bearing on whether the EU is democratic.

It does when they behave in a vengeful way in public and attempt to whip up public hysteria to that effect, as we have witnessed. It is, to put it bluntly, unstateman-like and utterly unhelpful as all it does is cause polarity.

Ratification has to continue as a statement of faith in the EU. If the ratification process simply stops, then effectively the EU project is simply halted, with no plan B. The Lisbon Treaty will not be enforced on Ireland, but it is vital that all other countries finish the ratification process as an earnest of their intent to reform the EU.

If ratification continues as is, despite all of the statements by the EU on consensus, then it is not a democratic act. And to be perfectly honest, politicians claiming to have no plan 'B' is inept laziness of a very worrying kind. It's their job to come up with alternatives.

I voted yes to the treaty, but as I've said - the amount of vitriolic bile and talk of ignoring the referendum result has given me pause for thought. And on that basis along I would be far more hesitant to vote yes to subsequent referenda on this matter. Not because of any text but on the point that the EU institutions and its leaders themselves have displayed a willingness to ignore their own stated democratic ideals when expediency suits them.

iPoker

dsane1 wrote: »

Hey op i suppose you voted yes ? o thats right you didnt have a vote did you lol

Sad to see a No Vote, purely from how other Europeans appear to be, on the whole, taking it. But very glad we had a Vote....maybe if Ireland was thrown out, the Europe could then proceed as a dictatorship??

iPoker

sopranos wrote: »

So, you voted no to a Treaty which will be approved by all the other 26 European countries. This Treaty doesn't state anything about militarization and otherwise promotes more power for a political subject which bases its constitution on the rejection to the war.

And the reason of your vote is that you don't like a militarized EU.

Well you understand everything.




That's was good. At least you didn't come out with the obvious association soprano-mafia

This being, in essence, the same contract rejected by Holland and France...of course, they do not now have the RIGHT to decide! Maybe Ireland should leave Europe if it is the only way to safeguard our democracy

Lemming

IRLConor wrote: »

Are they so different from an MP though? Really? Is there something magic once you are in the army that makes you a threat to the local populace?

There's a reason why most countries have a separation of police and military. I suggest you go look into it. Suffice to say to be a member of the ERU you must first be a Garda. Military police are oriented towards policing of military matters - hence why the Gardai do not police the military.

How do you know that the troops they're going to deploy aren't MPs?

How do you know they are?

iPoker

biko wrote: »

"The Italian government has defended its decision to use soldiers to patrol cities in an effort to curb crime, rejecting criticism that it will "militarise" the streets. The government announced that up to 2,500 soldiers, some of whom have served in Afghanistan, would be made available for a trial period of 6 months to help police in difficult areas".

When you use military against your own citizens then something isn't working.

is there anything new in this?

SkepticOne

I think one of the positive aspects of the No result is that the people of Ireland are now going to gain an understanding of their standing in Europe. Previously people had the belief that they were at the centre of Europe, a small country but in a union of equals.

turgon

iPoker wrote: »

So a rail connection implies the UK (who are far less European than Irish) has borders with France? How bizarre in 2008! Maybe in the 1800's!

Well the funny thing about the whole fallout after the No vote is how much of a scapegoat Ireland has become. I have No doubt at least a handful of other countries would have returned No.

Think about this - 160 of 166 Irish TD's voted YES - Result: NO
But only 346 out of 646 (including absentees) British MPs voted YES - I wonder what a referendum would give there?

billy the squid

sopranos wrote: »

Ok, you voted No to the Lisbon treaty. Good, now pleae leave EU. Go back to cultivate potatoes, say goodbye to EU funds and laws. Go back drinking your Guinness and do not interfere anymore with EU stuff.

Bye Bye Irish.

soprano

Translation:

So long, and thanks for all the fish.

rollie

sopranos wrote: »

The "real" problem is probably you Irish don't feel Europeans because actually you are NOT Europeans. Even here in this forum you can read people wondering if they feel more US or EU or British or just proud Irish. Sorry, that's not the spirit of Europe.

You're the only country geographically separated from the rest of the Union and you probably don't understand what means being European today, on 2008. You didn't have a post war dream, you didn't try to slowly build the future of a whole big nation without any more inside wars. You didn't see the excitement of a wall teared down, or the joy of thousand of eastern Europeans joining EU in 2004, after an half century of communism. You don't know what does it mean living today in cities like Berlin, Paris, Vienna or Varsaw.

Your contact with Europe is a plastic 20euro RyanAir flight seat which brings you to some remote cheap hangaar out of the big European cities. The same flight which maybe carries a "goodbye British" or "ciao Alitalia" advertising on his fuselage.

But it seems you didn't dislike EU when millions of euro of investments arrived, when a poor last-of-the-list country rose up to one of the most modern technology centers of Europe. The same laws which spoils your pints of Guiness have broughts wealth, worker rights, economy control, stability and security. And moreover, today we do have a voice in the world. Just 20 years ago Russians and Americans controlled everything.

That's Europan Union today, take it or loose it.

ciao, soprano

cry me a river...europe today is lots of things, and you're not going to loose us because that would be the first obvious failure of a developing democracy and would lead to global euroskepticism.

your argument whacks of desperation...them big bad commies ain't coming over the river for the foreseeable future

Agent Smith wrote: »

if we left the eu, it would be the greatest scam of all time.
join - get bucketloads of funding - then leave

now who told the foreigner about our not so sly master plan

IRLConor

Lemming wrote: »

There's a reason why most countries have a separation of police and military. I suggest you go look into it.

Lots of countries do, lots of countries don't. In most cases it boils down to a historic reason one way or the other.

In Ireland, the military has "Aid to the civil power" as part of the mission statement of the defence forces.
In the US, it's strictly separated by law and the argument is strongly intertwined with states' rights arguments.
In France, Italy, Spain and the Netherlands (at a quick glance) there are national gendarmeries which are either under military control or have a long military heritage and training.

Different countries have different ways of handling policing and make their own choices on whether they separate military and police powers. Shouldn't we just respect their decision until it's shown to be unwise?

Lemming wrote: »

How do you know they are [MPs]?

I don't. I just contend that the assumption that deploying troops on the streets is a bad thing is not a safe assumption to make until you know the actual details.

Gone West

In fairness, if the question had been put to all 26 nations in referenda, there is no doubt in my mind that at least several others would have voted no. I have little doubt that all the governments will ratify it without a need for a referendum, satisfying the representative democratic process.
The only difference really (forget the SF'ers, fishermen, far left and right wackjobs, etc) is that we were given the choice, individually to decide. It was because of ammending sections of our constitution and the way this played out in the Houses of the Oireachtas that we were given the vote on this.

Brussels might hate us, as might half of Europe, but the other side (unsure of %) are extremely happy with us. I am in email contact with several people over Europe, through work, etc. All their work emails have had well mannered, congratulatory "no" comments.

A dutchman, who is a faint work acquaintance of mine went on to say how proud he was of his country for beating Italy, and later France in the Euro 2008 games. He was saving a vintage bottle of Irish whisky (middleton 1971) for the later games, but he has since sent it on to me because he is prouder of Ireland for voting NO.
I have loads more stories like this, all with grassroots support for NO from Slovenia, Poland, France and Holland.

The Mighty Ken

OP - You're quite obviously arguing against democracy. How do you reconcile that?

billy the squid

sopranos wrote: »

The "real" problem is probably you Irish don't feel Europeans because actually you are NOT Europeans. Even here in this forum you can read people wondering if they feel more US or EU or British or just proud Irish. Sorry, that's not the spirit of Europe.

The real problem is probably... what kind of ****e is this. how can it be a real problem if it is probably anything.

You're the only country geographically separated from the rest of the Union and you probably don't understand what means being European today, on 2008.

Malta, Cyprus.

You didn't have a post war dream, you didn't try to slowly build the future of a whole big nation without any more inside wars. You didn't see the excitement of a wall teared down,

We did not see the resolution of these problems of rebuilding after the Second World War because we weren't stupid enough to start it.

or the joy of thousand of eastern Europeans joining EU in 2004,

Considering Ireland was only one of three countries which allowed Eastern Europeans in to the country in 2004 while everybody else put restrictions on them this makes your statement sound so ****ing stupid.
[/QUOTE]

Scofflaw

Lemming wrote: »

It does when they behave in a vengeful way in public and attempt to whip up public hysteria to that effect, as we have witnessed. It is, to put it bluntly, unstateman-like and utterly unhelpful as all it does is cause polarity.

There I agree with you. On the other hand, I don't think Sarkozy has been statesman-like at any point, so I was hardly expecting him to start now.

It's only undemocratic if something undemocratic actually happens.

Lemming wrote: »

If ratification continues as is, despite all of the statements by the EU on consensus, then it is not a democratic act. And to be perfectly honest, politicians claiming to have no plan 'B' is inept laziness of a very worrying kind. It's their job to come up with alternatives.

Ratifying is not undemocratic. Passing the Treaty into law at the end of that would be both undemocratic and illegal as it now stands.

Lemming wrote: »

I voted yes to the treaty, but as I've said - the amount of vitriolic bile and talk of ignoring the referendum result has given me pause for thought. And on that basis along I would be far more hesitant to vote yes to subsequent referenda on this matter. Not because of any text but on the point that the EU institutions and its leaders themselves have displayed a willingness to ignore their own stated democratic ideals when expediency suits them.

As long as they were still putting forward a Treaty that contained the same democratic elements as Lisbon, I would have no difficulty voting for it again. I don't care who says what, I care what's on offer. If it is a Treaty that increases the democracy in the EU (as I think it is), then the current bout is proving the extent to which that is not merely desirable but necessary.

cordially,
Scofflaw

iPoker

billy the squid wrote: »

Translation:

So long, and thanks for all the fish.

they fcukin loves their fish, they do

iPoker

FuzzyLogic wrote: »

I have loads more stories like this, all with grassroots support for NO from Slovenia, Poland, France and Holland.

fcukin slovenians.

iPoker

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

OP - You're quite obviously arguing against democracy. How do you reconcile that?

it tots.

Khannie

Lemming wrote: »

Why didn't you call for France and the Netherlands to be kicked out of the EU because they didn't give "the right answer" when the consitution was put to them three years ago?

Exactly what I was wondering.

sopranos wrote: »

This was a clear vote anti-EU. Maybe you don't like to see it like this, but that's the fact.

How the hell would you know? We're too far away from you (as you put it) for you to understand us.

edit:

billy the squid wrote: »

Considering Ireland was only one of three countries which allowed Eastern Europeans in to the country in 2004 while everybody else put restrictions on them this makes your statement sound so ****ing stupid.

Couldn't agree more with this.

IanCurtis

sopranos wrote: »

The "real" problem is probably you Irish don't feel Europeans because actually you are NOT Europeans. Even here in this forum you can read people wondering if they feel more US or EU or British or just proud Irish. Sorry, that's not the spirit of Europe.

You're the only country geographically separated from the rest of the Union and you probably don't understand what means being European today, on 2008. You didn't have a post war dream, you didn't try to slowly build the future of a whole big nation without any more inside wars. You didn't see the excitement of a wall teared down, or the joy of thousand of eastern Europeans joining EU in 2004, after an half century of communism. You don't know what does it mean living today in cities like Berlin, Paris, Vienna or Varsaw.

Your contact with Europe is a plastic 20euro RyanAir flight seat which brings you to some remote cheap hangaar out of the big European cities. The same flight which maybe carries a "goodbye British" or "ciao Alitalia" advertising on his fuselage.

But it seems you didn't dislike EU when millions of euro of investments arrived, when a poor last-of-the-list country rose up to one of the most modern technology centers of Europe. The same laws which spoils your pints of Guiness have broughts wealth, worker rights, economy control, stability and security. And moreover, today we do have a voice in the world. Just 20 years ago Russians and Americans controlled everything.

That's Europan Union today, take it or loose it.

ciao, soprano

oh god

sopranos

turgon wrote: »

This guy knows so much about the Treaty, I think it would be fair to make him mod of the Europe forum. Or lets just see for a second:<cut>

Finally I forced you to read the Treaty, you should have done it before voting no, though. The three small paragraph you quoted (from 200 pages or more) are the normal usual defense objectives which are for sure written in your and everyone else constitutions. Noting that may be thought as "militarization".