Ok, now please leave EU

iPoker

sopranos wrote: »

Hey Shelock Holmes, I wrote it already. I'm an Italian living in Austria. I give you some hints: mafia, corruption, trash, football team losing 3-0 against netherlands. Now go on, it's all yours.

fcukin eyetalians. i blame aeneas

sopranos

Lemming wrote: »

Actually, sopranos, my dear trolling little racist, I voted 'yes'.

What I deeply object to is your blinkered, childish, vitrolic, facist remarks that bear absolutely no grounding in reality nor a clue on how the Lisbon treaty was to be ratified as stated by the EU itself. Not Ireland.

Thanks for all the insults. I know the mean of unanimity. This doesn't deny me the right to criticize the only small country which prevented that unanimity. You don't like to ear it, as you voted yes, but it's your country.

turgon

sopranos wrote: »

trash

Deleted the post, not going to lower myself to sopranos level of just ignoring people.

SuperSean11

sopranos wrote: »

Shelock Holmes

Theres an R in there some where;)

turgon

sopranos wrote: »

Thanks for all the insults. I know the mean of unanimity. This doesn't deny me the right to criticize the only small country which prevented that unanimity. You don't like to ear it, as you voted yes, but it's your country.

Oh yes, I just remembered that the people of the other 26 countries all had their say. :rolleyes:

rollie

sopranos wrote: »

Hey Shelock Holmes, I wrote it already. I'm an Italian living in Austria. I give you some hints: mafia, corruption, trash, football team losing 3-0 against netherlands. Now go on, it's all yours.

turgon wrote: »

Your argument is as dirty as the streets of you country.

But now, go on, claim I am a racist. Then we can be racist together, and spend the rest of our lives ignorantly mocking people and countries that dont do exactly what we want them to.

Really is that where this converesation has gone...really? right im done, its just gone too downhill...i would be interested in discussing this further, but everyone just needs to take a bit of a break

Lemming

sopranos wrote: »

Thanks for all the insults. I know the mean of unanimity. This doesn't deny me the right to criticize the only small country which prevented that unanimity. You don't like to ear it, as you voted yes, but it's your country.

No, it does deny you the right to criticise Ireland since we are not the ones who stated that a unanimous vote was required. If you want to criticise someone, go criticise the EU itself.

And incidentally, insults are not insults when they're statements of truth. You're welcome by the way.

sopranos

rollie wrote: »

i really shouldnt be doing this, i have an interview tomorrow

Good luck with your interview. You're probably right, I'm too much pissed off about the whole thing.
By the way, I don't like Guinness. I prefer Czech beers.

turgon

rollie wrote: »

Really is that where this converesation has gone...really? right im done, its just gone too downhill...i would be interested in discussing this further, but everyone just needs to take a bit of a break

Sorry.

Flukey

The "We got loads of money off them" is irrelevant to this. This was not a referendum on whether we thought the EU was good for us or not. "Voting No would be anti-Europe" was another ridiculous argument too. The referendum wasn't on whether we should stay in it or leave it. The fact we voted No, can in no way be taken that people in Ireland don't want to be in the EU. The treaty was about the way it should be run in the future. It was mainly about changing the structures. We are being told that 26 countries are in favour of the treaty. In reality, 26 "governments" are in favour of it. If all countries allowed the people to vote on it, you can be sure some of the others would have said no too. At that, the French and Dutch people rejected something that was not much different than what we voted on. We only got a vote because of a supreme court case in 1987, where the right of the government to change the constitution without asking the people was challenged and the case won.

The EU has become detached from the people somewhat. The politicians are ploughing ahead with their plans, without involving the people. Ok, we do elect them to work on our behalf, but they are answerable to us and shouldn't just go off and do what they themselves think is right. This is a message to the politicians to listen and in 26 cases, to ask their people what they want.

Some are saying this is a disaster for the EU. If the politicians listened it could actually be the best thing to have happened to the EU in a long time. Before the treaty vote, we were being told that if even one country didn't ratify it, it would not be implemented. Now however we are being told that the others are going to carry on anyway. This in itself shows that the politicians aren't listening to the people, but just doing their own thing, in this case going back on what they said. They have proved the No people correct at the first opportunity. The politicians want the people to go along with treaties, and yet can very easily go back on what they agreed amongst themselves when it suits.

Instead of ploughing ahead, the other 26 countries should allow their citizens to vote, and then decide what they should do. They should go further than that and go back to basics and ask the people what they want the EU to be. For me, it could be put in very simple terms: "Cooperation, not Integration." We should work together for the common good, but as 27 independent and sovereign states. There are things we can learn from each other, ideas that we can use from others, and Irish ideas that other countries have used from us. We can work on trade issues and other issues. We are all different countries, with different issues being relevant in our countries. Something important to us like the sea-fishing industry isn't of much concern to the Austrians for example. Major issues in other countries aren't important to us.

I could pick lots of examples where they want a single perspective, but where really that should not happen. We don't need an EU foreign minister for example. We've already got 27 of them. Those 27 can sit down and come to common ground on some things, but each country should still be free to pursue their own foreign policies in some areas. We saw how some differed on Iraq, and that is a good thing. We can't squeeze all our different views into one box and come out with a single one. On another example, we don't need an EU President. We've all got our head of states and of course some of us are republics and others have monarchs. We are 27 countries, and the people running the EU have to remember that and do nothing to change that. As I said, we can cooperate, but not integrate. In some areas we can get close to it, but we all have to retain our independence.

Despite what many people are trying to make out, Ireland is very pro-Europe. Also despite what people are trying to make out, there are plenty of other citizens around the EU that would share reservations on the EU, had they been given the chance to say so. People voted NO for reasons that were not in the treaty at all, as we well know, but it was their only opportunity to send a message to the EU. Hopefully they will listen, and not just to us. If they do, we could have a stronger EU, even better than if we had voted Yes.

SuperSean11

sopranos wrote: »

I don't like Guinness. I prefer Czech beers.

So??? I preffer danish beer myself

Cow Moolester

sopranos wrote: »

My point is that you demonstrated in four answer the whole concept of anti-Europeism or Euroskepticism, call it as you like. For you, EU is a "let's preserve my private wealth and fu*k the rest of pathetic europeans" stuff, for me is "we're in the same ship, let's try to build up something better together".

I'd love you to point out where anyone said "let's preserve my private wealth and fu*k the rest of pathetic Europeans" because I certainly can't find it.

If we are all in the same ship, like you said, then we should be working together to put Irish voters at ease instead of pointing fingers. Irish voters had damn good reasons to vote no. Just because we would like to protect our neutrality and core beliefs doesn't mean you can dictate to us what we should vote.

If you are the poster-child of the new Europe then I am glad we voted no because by no means should a nation be bullied into voting a certain way. How democratic is it that if we don't vote a certain way then we are bullied?

Of course you could say that all countries have their wealth in mind. ESPECIALLY Italy and France. The French are overspending on their military and the militarisation of Europe would significantly lower their military spending.
Italy has been in deficit for the past few years with its GDP growth falling from 4.4% in 2006 to 2.4% in 2007 and once again the militarisation of Europe would reduce military spending etc.

Duffman

sopranos wrote: »

Hey Shelock Holmes, I wrote it already. I'm an Italian living in Austria. I give you some hints: mafia, corruption, trash, football team losing 3-0 against netherlands. Now go on, it's all yours.

Italian eh? You seem pretty pissed off at Irish people who, as you've made it quite clear, you believe to be terrible Europeans. We too can make sweeping statements about your people. Yay.


*takes a deep breadth*

By anyone's metric, Italy is pretty much the worst Member State in the EU when it comes to the duty of cooperation with, well anything.

You have to be dragged kicking and screaming into any initiative from Brussels, whether it's even making a token effort to stay within the stability criteria of the Euro or not deporting Romanians in a manner that flies in the face of the most fundamental principles of the Community, free movement of persons and, well, respect for basic human rights.

Actually, the core principles of EU law stemmed from cases against Italy for breaking the rules. LOL.

While I'm clearly trying to sound like a big racist, everything I've said is actually factually correct.

EDIT: Oh, and at least the Irish government wants positive things for Europe. Whatever about the Italian people, it's pretty bad when the Italian government has such a lack of respect for all things EU.

That was fun.

iPoker wrote: »

fcukin eyetalians. i blame aeneas

Roffle.

sopranos

Cow Moolester wrote: »

I'd love you to point out where anyone said "let's preserve my private wealth and fu*k the rest of pathetic Europeans" because I certainly can't find it.

I cite you just one, but there are others:

"most irish people,s only interest in europe was what they could get out of it

as someone who lives in the country and who grew up on a farm , that certainly is how farmers feel about it"

Cow Moolester

sopranos wrote: »

I cite you just one, but there are others:

"most irish people,s only interest in europe was what they could get out of it

as someone who lives in the country and who grew up on a farm , that certainly is how farmers feel about it"

And who is one person to speak on behalf of 4 million? I know I certainly don't feel that way. Even Mr. Barroso said in his post-referendum speech that he accepted that Ireland was very pro-European.

I also love the way you ignore statements where people catch you out. :pac:

sopranos

Duffman wrote: »

Italian eh?

Yes, Italian. I know Italian government went several times against the principles of EU, and I always blamed it for doing that. I welcomed any intervention of EU to correct misbehaviours of Italian government.

sopranos

Cow Moolester wrote: »

And who is one person to speak on behalf of 4 million? I know I certainly don't feel that way. Even Mr. Barroso said in his post-referendum speech that he accepted that Ireland was very pro-European.

I also love the way you ignore statements where people catch you out. :pac:

It's not easy to answer to all of that posts, I tried to do it (I passed my Sunday in this forum!!). Sorry if I didn't answer to someone. Now I've to leave... to tomorrow!

SuperSean11

Ok see you tomorrow

rollie

sopranos wrote: »

Good luck with your interview. You're probably right, I'm too much pissed off about the whole thing.
By the way, I don't like Guinness. I prefer Czech beers.

thanks for that...to be honest i do like the way you came to a predominately irish place to start some conversation/debate, thats very in the spirit of exchange of opinions and ideas which is very european etc.

and just to give you a heads up on an irish secret...nobody likes guinness to begin with, its an aquired taste. you just have to persevere with it, its very irish that way

Rb

sopranos wrote: »

Sorry if I didn't answer to someone. Now I've to leave... to tomorrow!

Wireless connection not so good under the bridge?

turgon

Cow Moolester wrote: »

I also love the way you ignore statements where people catch you out. :pac:

Thats all hes been doing all day.

But even if he is like that, rollie is right, he knwe he was not going to win on an Irish forum, so fair play for trying anyway!!

rollie is also right, Guinness is acquired taste. But its just so creamy, it becomes irresistible. Yum.

Cow Moolester

turgon wrote: »

Thats all hes been doing all day.

But even if he is like that, rollie is right, he knwe he was not going to win on an Irish forum, so fair play for trying anyway!!

rollie is also right, Guinness is acquired taste. But its just so creamy, it becomes irresistible. Yum.

If it was possible to just by a can of the head of a pint then I'd buy it in crates


(If there is then someone must tell me)

turgon

Maybe if you put your pint into a blender for 5 minutes it would whisk it all up into the white cream? Cas when you pour it from a height, there appears to be a bigger head.

I know off-topic.

claudiog

sopranos wrote: »

The "real" problem is probably you Irish don't feel Europeans because actually you are NOT Europeans. Even here in this forum you can read people wondering if they feel more US or EU or British or just proud Irish. Sorry, that's not the spirit of Europe.

You're the only country geographically separated from the rest of the Union and you probably don't understand what means being European today, on 2008. You didn't have a post war dream, you didn't try to slowly build the future of a whole big nation without any more inside wars. You didn't see the excitement of a wall teared down, or the joy of thousand of eastern Europeans joining EU in 2004, after an half century of communism. You don't know what does it mean living today in cities like Berlin, Paris, Vienna or Varsaw.

Your contact with Europe is a plastic 20euro RyanAir flight seat which brings you to some remote cheap hangaar out of the big European cities. The same flight which maybe carries a "goodbye British" or "ciao Alitalia" advertising on his fuselage.

But it seems you didn't dislike EU when millions of euro of investments arrived, when a poor last-of-the-list country rose up to one of the most modern technology centers of Europe. The same laws which spoils your pints of Guiness have broughts wealth, worker rights, economy control, stability and security. And moreover, today we do have a voice in the world. Just 20 years ago Russians and Americans controlled everything.

That's Europan Union today, take it or loose it.

ciao, soprano

Yeah, may be. Anyway your position is the same as the arrogant italians who pretend to say to sued-tiroler that they are italians when actually they are not.
Sorry, that's not the way.

Irish and Proud

sopranos wrote: »

Ok, you voted No to the Lisbon treaty. Good, now pleae leave EU. Go back to cultivate potatoes, say goodbye to EU funds and laws. Go back drinking your Guinness and do not interfere anymore with EU stuff.

Bye Bye Irish.

soprano

...yeah, and if we leave the EU, we would get to reclaim a massive part of the EU's fishing waters in which the EU has done very well to the tune of 10s of billions (someone quoted €150bn) since Maastricht - all for your €8bn! :rolleyes: - do you honestly think that we, the Irish people, are thick or something??? We would also keep our uranium and other potential natural resources such as oil and gas. Oh, there's also a large enough part of the EU's airspace which we control - an area in which it is said that 30% of the EU's air traffic passes through - oh good, we could do a Switzerland on it and threaten to block EU traffic in retaliation - after all, aren't the skies of Europe one of the world's most congested?

So if Ireland leaves the EU, the French and Spanish might not be too happy as their fishing industries would be seriously undermined. What about the traditional European airlines which would have several flights a day to North America etc. I think BA would certainly feel the heat on its trans-Atlantic routes.

You see mate, it's not all quite that simple!

Regards!

murphaph

sopranos wrote: »

You're the only country geographically separated from the rest of the Union

Neither Malta, Cyprus nor Greece share a border with another member of the European Union, whereas we in the Republic of Ireland has a 300 mile border with another member state

sopranos wrote: »

you didn't try to slowly build the future of a whole big nation without any more inside wars.

Yes we did. We had a disastrous civil war and it still has lingering effects today!

sopranos wrote: »

You didn't see the excitement of a wall teared down, or the joy of thousand of eastern Europeans joining EU in 2004, after an half century of communism.

Unlike your country, we actually embraced these Eastern european citizens as FULL MEMBERS of the union from DAY ONE! We threw open our borders along with that other horribly anti-EU state....the United Kingdom (and Sweden)!

sopranos wrote: »

You don't know what does it mean living today in cities like Berlin, Paris, Vienna or Varsaw.

....and I presume you don't know what it means to live in cities like Dublin or London? London is the most cosmopolitan city in the entire EU, FACT. London and the rest of the UK would have voted even more resoundingly against this treaty than us, what's your point?

sopranos wrote: »

Your contact with Europe is a plastic 20euro RyanAir flight seat which brings you to some remote cheap hangaar out of the big European cities. The same flight which maybe carries a "goodbye British" or "ciao Alitalia" advertising on his fuselage.

Erm, quite. You can thank that IRISH COMPANY for your cheaper airline fares (any company you care to name!) of recent years. If it hadn't been for the IRISH COMPANY leading the way you'd still be paying hundreds of Euro for every single short haul flight with your flag carriers!

sopranos wrote: »

But it seems you didn't dislike EU when millions of euro of investments arrived, when a poor last-of-the-list country rose up to one of the most modern technology centers of Europe.

We joined in 73. Our economy stagnated for almost a further 20 years. It then began booming because we changed our tax regime (encouraging FDI and financial services) and spent vast sums (of our own money) on 3rd level education in the form of the RTCs. Europe just provided a market for our goods.

sopranos wrote: »

The same laws which spoils your pints of Guiness have broughts wealth

See above. We could have achieved the same as an EEA member.

sopranos wrote: »

worker rights

Does Norway, Iceland etc. not have excellent worker rights? Don't have to be in the EU for that either.

sopranos wrote: »

economy control

Ha! We've lost control over interest rates and the ability to devalue our currency! How can you say we have gained economic control?! The EU wlite would love to harmonise taxes if it got half a chance and you know it!

sopranos wrote: »

stability

We managed to remain stable through a vicious civil war, through economic doldrums lasting decades, through subversive activity of the IRA and you think it arrived in 1973 with EEC membership?

sopranos wrote: »

and security

Has never been put to the test but I bet you one thing....our old enemy (really our old friend IMO) the United Kingdom would be FIRST TO OUR AID should we be attacked, whether we are members of the EU or not. The RAF have permission to overfly our airspace should the need ever arise to do so in the defence of Ireland.

sopranos wrote: »

And moreover, today we do have a voice in the world. Just 20 years ago Russians and Americans controlled everything.

The Russians may yet control everything. They control the bulk of the EU's energy.

sopranos wrote: »

That's Europan Union today, take it or loose it.

Wow, it's such a rosy picture but I think free trade and freedom of movement is enough for me. Let the Germans and French try to integrate social policy if they like. It will all end in tears IMO-Europeans aren't as alike as the EU elite make out.

sopranos wrote: »

ciao, soprano

Slan.

flintash

i wish most of Irish were so inteligent as these guys in forum are. Well, relatively...
most guys i asked why they said NO, was like, "i did get a book but i didn't understand" , or " didnt get explained", or kinda "only we are democratic country where people can decide, so Eu want to be totally dicktatorship and make out of us slaves". most of whole thing i liked posters on the streets - don't get bullied .Vote NO that was a laugh when saw that
Persanally i think that yours declared democracy is just a laugh of brainwashing. I don't care if i had even a dictator- once i am well fed and entertained what else i need?
And answer the question yourself : when politicians talk straight and explain whats really happening.
Give you example from yours everydays life:
Meeting. You have to choose who to work with on simple and timewasting project (kinda stare at monitor, and read friend's nasty emails). There is two candidates- your best friend you have a good time every weekend in the pub, or that looser from another department , oh, and he took your parking lot yesterday.
So, you have to choose and your argument is: He's the most siutable for the job, with his expierence and knowledge, his commitment to work and his passion to quality we can succeed, blabla bla...
Isn't?
I dare to guess who would that be?
Got my point?
Politicians never declare that they after (believe nobody change my attitude to this ever ) What ever that is- glabal dominance in the world, or build powerfull army in turn to Russia (who knows what intelligence they have ), dont let China gain the power (forget explotation and cheap clothes) or maybe remove veto from separate countries.I dont know the real reason, but i believe that they cannot declare truth for one of the reason- because these posh democratic people in Europe caring about human rights, poor kids in Africa and everything else wouldn't vote YES ,and BECAUSE THEY KNOW!!!! What is the best.
Little poeple of working class, 356 days talking about soccer, tv soaps , and holidays in a single day decide what is the best for global future.HA, make me believe this
So, i dont know why you are so sceptic about Lisbon treaty(is it because your house price droped 50 grands, or hundreds of poeple loosing their jobs everyday, or your last Taoiseachh took the money (which one didnt?! ).

Mr.Nice Guy

sopranos wrote: »

Ok, you voted No to the Lisbon treaty. Good, now pleae leave EU. Go back to cultivate potatoes, say goodbye to EU funds and laws. Go back drinking your Guinness and do not interfere anymore with EU stuff.

Bye Bye Irish.

soprano

I'm not sure what's worse. Your pathetic attitude or the Irish people who thanked you for your pathetic attitude. Nice stereotyping by the way. Nothing I love more that cultivating the oul' potatoes, bejaysus!

murphaph

Seems some people really do want to live in 1984. :rolleyes:

Irish and Proud

murphaph wrote: »

Seems some people really do want to live in 1984. :rolleyes:

Agreed!