I don't think people realise the corner they have put Ireland in........

Randomness

I think it's fair to say that the average Joe who might have a few small issues with the fine points of the Treaty would have liked to have voted No knowing that this would then mean the rest of Europe stopped and said, "well Ireland has said no, hmmmm we need to take a step back here, stop other ratification processes and listen to what they have to say".

However people failed to realise that having debated, discussed and drawn out the treaty for long enough this was never going to be an option for the rest of Europe hence they responded to our rejection with "well lets keep ratifying".

Possible the worst thing that could have happened.

We have now been hit twice, a rejection of a treaty AND the rejection of our E.U friends.

Ireland has taken and taken and in later years started giving back to the E.U.
Now when they ask us to help them out by restructuring and reforming in the best way possible for ALL states we turn are back on them.

We have become selfish - not one person I have spoken to who voted no said "what is the benefit for all of the E.U in the treaty?" all anybody wanted to know was "what do I get out of it?".

In any organisation with 27 members you are never going to be able to please every problem of every member but you can do the best to get as close to that as possible. It's a bit of a kick in the teeth when one of them won't support your efforts to improve.

The E.U is not prefect but it was trying to get there and we blocked that.

Through thick and thin for the last 35 years we have punched above our weight and benefitted enormously. However I fear we have lost some of our closest friends in Europe and this marks the begining of the lost voice of Ireland in the E.U.

This small island which has been heard for so long has drawn the last straw with our neighbours patience and we will unfortunately suffers the consequences.........

Rb

Was a new thread really necessary?

TelePaul

Rb wrote: »

Was a new thread really necessary?

One man, one thread?

turgon

Your claims have already been discussed a length on other threads. The fact of the matter is a No vote was received, but it is not an anti-EU vote. If that cannot be respected by the EU then it is only going to make the No voters even more happy, and is going to make some of the Yes side turn to the No side.

Look, I cant help it if I looked at this treaty and didn't like some of it. I wasnt going to vote Yes just because it was from the EU. That is why each member state ratifies it individually: so that they can deal with it in a selfish manner. Why should I vote Yes just cause its good for the french?

Anyway, Ive already had an uphill battle with sopranos, and I'm not in the mood to debate this again!!!!

hatrickpatrick

Look it's very simple. The people of Europe have consistently stated, time and time again, in various medims, that they simply don't want any more power to be centralized in brussels. The way the political leaders are trying to steer us would end in the abolition of national parliaments, and a sort of Unisted States of Europe style system, with Brussels acting as Washington does in the US.

People simply don't want this. Ireland should be ruled from Dublin, France from Paris Britain from London, etc etc etc. What politicians don't seem to realize is that while integration is good for Europe, we just don't want to lose our individuality and independence. And it's not just the Irish who feel this way either - we just happen to be the only people who've been given the chance to bluntly state how we feel about it. Given the choice, I highly doubt it would have got as far as a referendum in Ireland - someone else would have been bound to vote against it by now...

TelePaul

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Look it's very simple. The people of Europe have consistently stated, time and time again, in various medims, that they simply don't want any more power to be centralized in brussels. The way the political leaders are trying to steer us would end in the abolition of national parliaments, and a sort of Unisted States of Europe style system, with Brussels acting as Washington does in the US.

Link please??? To any information pertaining to the political leaders dastardly scheme to abolish national parliaments.

Irish and Proud

Randomness wrote: »

I think it's fair to say that the average Joe who might have a few small issues with the fine points of the Treaty would have liked to have voted No knowing that this would then mean the rest of Europe stopped and said, "well Ireland has said no, hmmmm we need to take a step back here, stop other ratification processes and listen to what they have to say".

Well, would you sign a contract without knowing the real implications of it??? If we voted for Lisbon, we would certainly have been in unchartered waters - there were far too many vague areas and possible loop holes within the Lisbon Treaty document!

Randomness wrote: »

However people failed to realise that having debated, discussed and drawn out the treaty for long enough this was never going to be an option for the rest of Europe hence they responded to our rejection with "well lets keep ratifying".

...and what involvement did the people of Europe have??? As EU officials and politicians are so arrogant, did you honestly think that the No camp in general would expect otherwise! The said officials and politicians are just proving our concerns over democracy! If there was another Lisbon referendum, the margin of rejection would probably be even greater!

Randomness wrote: »

Possible the worst thing that could have happened.

We have now been hit twice, a rejection of a treaty AND the rejection of our E.U friends.

Firstly, if they don't respect a democratic decision, they are not friends of Ireland, as Ireland is a truly democratic nation! Secondly, we don't know what is going to happen until the EU meeting next week!

Randomness wrote: »

Ireland has taken and taken and in later years started giving back to the E.U.
Now when they ask us to help them out by restructuring and reforming in the best way possible for ALL states we turn are back on them.

We have become selfish - not one person I have spoken to who voted no said "what is the benefit for all of the E.U in the treaty?" all anybody wanted to know was "what do I get out of it?".

Excuse me??? What about our fishing waters? :mad:

Also, how could an undemocratic EU be the best possible way for any member state? Maybe you would rather a super-state that is all about power and influence on the world stage, rather than an EU state that holds its own in world affairs and looks after its people. Also, a super-state that genuinely helps out some of the world's poorest nations is one that will gain respect. Is the US (which is doing to the contrary) gaining world respect as of now??? Eh, that would be a big fat NO!

Randomness wrote: »

In any organisation with 27 members you are never going to be able to please every problem of every member but you can do the best to get as close to that as possible. It's a bit of a kick in the teeth when one of them won't support your efforts to improve.

Eh, you mean: ...when one of then won't support the building of a powerful dictatorship that disregards the interest of its citizens.

Remember all those promised referendums in the various EU countries that didn't materialise.

Remember the comment: "Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly" ... "All the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way." - V.Giscard D'Estaing, Le Monde, 14 June 2007

Randomness wrote: »

The E.U is not prefect but it was trying to get there and we blocked that.

You're dead right that the EU is not perfect! Also, I totally agree it is trying to get somewhere mate: that somewhere though is in the form of a perfect dictatorship which would probably materialise within a generation or two!

Randomness wrote: »

Through thick and thin for the last 35 years we have punched above our weight and benefitted enormously. However I fear we have lost some of our closest friends in Europe and this marks the begining of the lost voice of Ireland in the E.U.

As I said above...

Randomness wrote: »

This small island which has been heard for so long has drawn the last straw with our neighbours patience and we will unfortunately suffers the consequences.........

Well I'd rather isolation over dictatorship!

Regards!

Mr.Nice Guy

Randomness wrote: »

Ireland has taken and taken and in later years started giving back to the E.U.
Now when they ask us to help them out by restructuring and reforming in the best way possible for ALL states we turn are back on them.

I think you'll find the selfish ones were those who refused to give citizens of nation-states a referendum on the matter. With particular mention to France and Holland whose people rejected the EU constitution, and Gordon Brown who camapigned on giving the people a referendum.

Randomness wrote:

This small island which has been heard for so long has drawn the last straw with our neighbours patience and we will unfortunately suffers the consequences.........

So we should have backed a Treaty for fear of the consequences? Wow what a wonderful Union that sure is! :rolleyes:

Read our history and you'll see we the Irish people know full well what it's like to be intimidated and threatened by an undemocratic Union. I do NOT wish to see us suffer a similar fate.

They are going to make us suffer? Bring it on. I won't be bullied or intimidated.

TelePaul

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Read our history and you'll see we the Irish people know full well what it's like to be intimidated and threatened by an undemocratic Union. I do NOT wish to see us suffer a similar fate.

Are you really comparing what I think you're comparing? :eek:

Mr.Nice Guy

TelePaul wrote: »

Are you really comparing what I think you're comparing? :eek:

Well I'm not talking about Siptu.

eoin2nc

TelePaul wrote: »

Are you really comparing what I think you're comparing? :eek:

I know, some people in this country thought that agreeing to Lisbon would mean we would lose our own government, and become part of a 'dictatorship'

The cold,harsh facts are Ireland is a tiny country on the edge of Europe. Like it or not the rest of the EU is going to move on. Call it un-democraticc or what you like, we are going to be isolated

RedPlanet

Why should we change our constitution and give up some of our sovereignty to an organisation that obviously doesn't care what we think?

Mr.Nice Guy

eoin2nc wrote: »

I know, some people in this country thought that agreeing to Lisbon would mean we would lose our own government, and become part of a 'dictatorship'

Yeah how could people think such a thing, right?

"The treaty is alive, and we should continue.

"The No vote in Ireland has not solved the problems which the Lisbon treaty is designed to solve... The European Commission believes that the remaining ratifications should continue to take their course."

- Jose Manuel Barroso

"Without doubt it is not good news, but Europe will not stop. I am convinced that, as has occurred at other times in the past in the EU, we will find a solution among ourselves."

- Spanish Foreign Minister Miguel Angel Moratinos

"I'm not prepared to surmise on that. I'm not ruling anything in or out or up or down."

- Brian Cowen on the idea of another referendum being held.

Nothing dictatorial about that attitude eh! But here's the real crack up of all time if you ask me...

"Every citizen shall have the right to participate in the democratic life of the Union. Decisions shall be taken as openly and as closely as possible to the citizen."

- Preamble from the Lisbon Treaty

Nah, nothing dictatorial about these people DICTATING what happens next, eh? :rolleyes:

eoin2nc

You really dont know what a dictator is.

Every citizen shall have the right to participate in the democratic life of the Union. Decisions shall be taken as openly and as closely as possible to the citizen

Please explain how that is dictatorial.


What would be dictatorial was if less than 1 million NO voters held up the treaty for the 500 million other citizens in the EU. They have every right to continue raitifying the treaty, what they cant do is force Irealnd to ratify it against the wishes of the people.

What will happen is there will be a yes vote to a change lisbon 2 treaty, IMO.The EU needs to reform itself

Mr.Nice Guy

eoin2nc wrote: »

You really dont know what a dictator is.

Every citizen shall have the right to participate in the democratic life of the Union. Decisions shall be taken as openly and as closely as possible to the citizen

Please explain how that is dictatorial.

Oh the words itself are not dictatorial at all but it's a shame they are not true to them. The quotes above it most certainly are. If you think otherwise, please explain to me your reasoning.

eoin2nc wrote:

What would be dictatorial was if less than 1 million NO voters held up the treaty for the 500 million other citizens in the EU. They have every right to continue raitifying the treaty, what they cant do is force Irealnd to ratify it against the wishes of the people.

What will happen is there will be a yes vote to a change lisbon 2 treaty, IMO.The EU needs to reform itself

How is a democratic referendum dictatorial when none of the other hundreds of millions of citizens were consulted about their thoughts on the EU's agenda? They have no right to continue ratifying the treaty since it can't be implemented without all states supporting it. We have shown we do not.

is_that_so

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Oh the words itself are not dictatorial at all but it's a shame they are not true to them. The quotes above it most certainly are. If you think otherwise, please explain to me your reasoning.



How is a democratic referendum dictatorial when none of the other hundreds of millions of citizens were consulted about their thoughts on the EU's agenda? They have no right to continue ratifying the treaty since it can't be implemented without all states supporting it. We have shown we do not.

We have not ratified it and as others have posted ad nauseum different countries have different mechanisms, through parliaments, elected by their people.

Mr.Nice Guy

is_that_so wrote: »

We have not ratified it and as others have posted ad nauseum different countries have different mechanisms, through parliaments, elected by their people.

And as others have posted ad nauseum, France and Holland put essentially the same proposals to their people via referendums and Gordon Brown promised to do likewise prior to the British election.

People seem to forget this was 'Plan B' and the EU's attempt to wriggle around the blows dealt by the French and Dutch initially.

ninebeanrows

People don't seem to realise that Ireland is entering uncertain times and Friday's no vote will only compound the uncertainty with regard to our economy.

What will our multinational companies based in Ireland do when they sense this uncertainty, when they sense that Ireland will become marginalized?

I just hope the people who did vote no realise just what a big decision they have made, Ireland will suffer because of their decision, Ireland position in the EU may become untenable if all other countries ratify the treaty.

We will be asked to give reasons why we did not sign the treaty. How do we answer that.. the neigh-sayers can go and explain why they turned their backs on Europe on what could be a faithful Friday the 13th.

RedPlanet

It's not the Irish electorate that's sidelining itself, rather it's bullies in europe like France for example.
The Lisbon treaty legally cannot come into effect as it requires unanimity.

Tomorrow it's business as usual.

Any talk from the EU of side-lining ireland counts against the yeah-sayers.
Why should we dilute our sovereignty for a group that doesn't care about our opinion?

Why do we waste our time voting when the only vote that counts is the one the powers-that-be desire?

turgon

Weathercheck wrote: »

People don't seem to realise that Ireland is entering uncertain times and Friday's no vote will only compound the uncertainty with regard to our economy.

Weathercheck, the Yes side have constantly given out to the No side for voting No because of only one referenda in Europe, or the lack of respect shown by the EU leaders.

And in fairness, this reason to vote Yes, just to save the economy) is the same. It has nothing to do with the Treaty at all. I would not say Yes just cause were in tough times, that would be irresponsible imo.

Mr.Nice Guy

Weathercheck wrote: »

We will be asked to give reasons why we did not sign the treaty. How do we answer that

We tell them their proposals weren't good enough for Ireland and the rest of Europe. If they dispute this we tell them to put it to their people in a referendum and see what they have to say. We say that to Gordon Brown especially.

It's time we stopped bending over backwards for these people. Sovereignty lies with the Irish people, not with Sarkozy, Merkel and the gang.

force eleven

Weathercheck wrote: »

People don't seem to realise that Ireland is entering uncertain times and Friday's no vote will only compound the uncertainty with regard to our economy.

What will our multinational companies based in Ireland do when they sense this uncertainty, when they sense that Ireland will become marginalized?

I just hope the people who did vote no realise just what a big decision they have made, Ireland will suffer because of their decision, Ireland position in the EU may become untenable if all other countries ratify the treaty.

We will be asked to give reasons why we did not sign the treaty. How do we answer that.. the neigh-sayers can go and explain why they turned their backs on Europe on what could be a faithful Friday the 13th.

Turning our backs on Europe? Perhaps they have turned their backs on us with this treaty? I am sure I am not alone, as an EU watcher for over 20 years see it becoming a more and more powerful entity, way beyond the benefactor it was to us in the 70's and 80's. Back then it was very good for us, trade wise, business wise and economically it made sense. Markets were opened for us and we recieved substantial funding to help our infrasructure. Now, its all about how they interfere, yes, that is the word I have come to use, in most other aspects of our lives. Its not a question of the EU changing the way things are done so that 27 nations can co exist happily. Its about integration, union, the 'Project', and dare I use the word,federalism. I want to be part of the EU, but I don't want to 'integrated'. I don't believe all the outcry this time over our neutrality or abortion etc, but it 'could' be on the cards in a few years time. Who knows? All we really have done in practical terms is pissed of a few hundred federalists and M.Sarkozy's prestige. I can live with that. And I do not want to vote on this again.

Mr.Nice Guy

force eleven wrote: »

Turning our backs on Europe? Perhaps they have turned their backs on us with this treaty? I am sure I am not alone, as an EU watcher for over 20 years see it becoming a more and more powerful entity, way beyond the benefactor it was to us in the 70's and 80's. Back then it was very good for us, trade wise, business wise and economically it made sense. Markets were opened for us and we recieved substantial funding to help our infrasructure. Now, its all about how they interfere, yes, that is the word I have come to use, in most other aspects of our lives. Its not a question of the EU changing the way things are done so that 27 nations can co exist happily. Its about integration, union, the 'Project', and dare I use the word,federalism. I want to be part of the EU, but I don't want to 'integrated'. I don't believe all the outcry this time over our neutrality or abortion etc, but it 'could' be on the cards in a few years time. Who knows? All we really have done in practical terms is pissed of a few hundred federalists and M.Sarkozy's prestige. I can live with that. And I do not want to vote on this again.

Absolutely spot on. Well said.

There are people, including on this forum, who like to present the result as a slap in the face to the EU for the benefits we in Ireland received in the past. However, as you point out, the EU has been slowly morphing into something quite different.

The vote was not about how the EU treated us in the past, but how it would treat us and others in the future. Based on the evidence put before me on that, I felt a No vote was the only sensible decision and, like yourself, do NOT want this vote again.

ninebeanrows

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

We tell them their proposals weren't good enough for Ireland and the rest of Europe. If they dispute this we tell them to put it to their people in a referendum and see what they have to say. We say that to Gordon Brown especially.

It's time we stopped bending over backwards for these people. Sovereignty lies with the Irish people, not with Sarkozy, Merkel and the gang.

Yes Mr Nice Guy, i agree, give a popular vote on the treaty to all EU nations.

Then the treaty would be ratified.

Would you like that? Or would you not because you would lose?

Your view of Democracy leaves alot to be desired, you seem to think Ireland is some big punching weight in the E.U, get a grip, we're Ireland with a population of 4 million. It's about time you realise that. We have achieved so much for a small entity thanks to the E.U .

Mr.Nice Guy

Weathercheck wrote: »

Yes Mr Nice Guy, i agree, give a popular vote on the treaty to all EU nations.

Then the treaty would be ratified.

Would you like that? Or would you not because you would lose?

Your view of Democracy leaves alot to be desired, you seem to think Ireland is some big punching weight in the E.U, get a grip, we're Ireland with a population of 4 million. It's about time you realise that. We have achieved so much for a small entity thanks to the E.U .

I would love to see all nations given a referendum on the Treaty and for every country to have to endorse it. Of course you and your ilk do not want that because you know it would be swiftly rejected. As far as I'm concerned things should have died off following the French and Dutch EU Constitution rejections. If the British were given a referendum on Lisbon they would reject it too.

My view of democracy doesn't leave a lot to be desired. I believe in respecting the will of the people.

Just because you have some inferiority complex with your 'we have a population of 4 million' guff (who cares?) doesn't mean we should become the whooping boys of Europe. I'm proud of this country.

force eleven

Weathercheck wrote: »

Yes Mr Nice Guy, i agree, give a popular vote on the treaty to all EU nations.

Then the treaty would be ratified.

Would you like that? Or would you not because you would lose?

Your view of Democracy leaves alot to be desired, you seem to think Ireland is some big punching weight in the E.U, get a grip, we're Ireland with a population of 4 million. It's about time you realise that. We have achieved so much for a small entity thanks to the E.U .

I agree the governments of the day should make the decisions of the day that they were voted in to do on the bread and butter issues for each country.. However, we are not talking about budgets, or health spending,job creation policy etc or . In this case they want to implement a treaty that will have an impact on ordinary citizens lives, across virtually the whole of Europe. Its that important, that the peoples across Europe should have had a chance to decide. They didn't, but we thankfully did. My views of how the EU should proceed won't be heeded, but as long as I can vote on it, I will try.

dsane1

Just wondering is there any reliable eu wide survey that shows what the people in the rest of europe really feel about the treaty ?

ninebeanrows

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I would love to see all nations given a referendum on the Treaty and for every country to have to endorse it. Of course you and your ilk do not want that because you know it would be swiftly rejected. As far as I'm concerned things should have died off following the French and Dutch EU Constitution rejections. If the British were given a referendum on Lisbon they would reject it too.

My view of democracy doesn't leave a lot to be desired. I believe in respecting the will of the people.

Just because you have some inferiority complex with your 'we have a population of 4 million' guff (who cares?) doesn't mean we should become the whooping boys of Europe. I'm proud of this country.

If there was a popular vote across the EU on the treaty i would be near certain (99.9%) that it would be ratified.
Or do you not respect the opinions of all the European people, i find it likely that you just respect the views of the old block, that's not so democratic. Perhaps you would suggest we pull out of the EU?

ircoha

Weathercheck wrote: »

People don't seem to realise that Ireland is entering uncertain times and Friday's no vote will only compound the uncertainty with regard to our economy.

What will our multinational companies based in Ireland do when they sense this uncertainty, when they sense that Ireland will become marginalized?

I just hope the people who did vote no realise just what a big decision they have made, Ireland will suffer because of their decision, Ireland position in the EU may become untenable if all other countries ratify the treaty.

We will be asked to give reasons why we did not sign the treaty. How do we answer that.. the neigh-sayers can go and explain why they turned their backs on Europe on what could be a faithful Friday the 13th.

In truth Weathercheck you have put it correctly when u say it was a faithful Friday 13th: we were faithful to our values, heritage, culture, history and most of all common sense.
I suspect you meant fateful Friday 13th, but maybe not:)

The treaty was a slight of hand: just look at page 9 and 10 of the RefCom booklet: this would have been our last ref for large tracts of EU business, therefore overwriting our Constitution and Courts.

The 160 odd TD's between them could not set out in plain english what it was about.
The aristocrats in Europe did not publish the full treaty as they did not want it easily readable.

Fially we need to keep our sense of perspective. There is nobody dead

dloob

Well it puts us in a bit of a hole but we can't do anytihng about that now the vote was No, it's up to Cowen to get us out of it.
God help us.

Mr Nice Guy, you say No to another referendum, but would you support one if the treaty was amended to address some of the Irish concerns?
The renegotiation that some on the No side spoke about.
By support I don't mean voting yes to it, but just support the holding of another vote.
That would require re-ratification in the other 26 of course, so I'm not sure it could happen before Jan 1st deadline anyway.

I agree that nobody could justify another vote on the same text without changes.

As an aside I was amused to see the Sunday Mail has discovered we will lose our commisioner next year,a bit late lads.
Of course they are spinning it as revenge from the EU which in their words would "bizarrely have been prevented by lisbon until 2014".

Crash

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I would love to see all nations given a referendum on the Treaty and for every country to have to endorse it. Of course you and your ilk do not want that because you know it would be swiftly rejected.

Actually, I'd say it would pass. Of course, thats on the basis if you went and did it as a general majority vote.

Because to be honest, If you did it as a referenda per country and then each country getting a vote, it'd be equally as undemocratic as it is now. There's only black and white in democracy folks - either something is or isn't.