Abortion from a Atheist viewpoint

Malari

I am against abortion entirely

kmick wrote: »

I voted anti-abortion. However life is not black and white so I wont judge anyone else. All I know is I would never ask a partner of mine to have one.

At 24 weeks which is the limit of UK abortion the baby can recognise its mothers voice and feel pain. That to me is very sad.

This is the point I was trying to make earlier. Pro-choice is not exactly the opposite of anti-abortion.

It should not be considered a safety net. It should be the absolute last resort and something that couples talk about in the event of an accidental pregnancy BEFORE that happens.

I don't think there is enough information about contraception for teenagers. I think it should be forced upon them! Information, that is...although :rolleyes:

all the stars

DinoBot wrote: »

So will you be hoping the government take away cancer health care to people who smoked as well ? How about car crash victims, their fault for driving, let them die !

Man, I haven't seen an answer like that since primary school !!

Just to say, in the case of consentual sex - there are so many ways not to get pregnant these days that are almost 100% effective.
It should be alot about being responsible - if you are sexually active making a concious choice "yes i want kids now - lets get pregnant" or "im not ready to have kids and lets take precautions"

odviously in the case of Rape things would be differant -

Galvasean

I am against abortion except for in cases of rape and also incest

DinoBot wrote: »

Hi,
So you are pro-choice because "the stress of pregnancy would be detrimental to her mental health" in the case of a rape victim.

So, if a woman was not raped but the stress of pregnancy would be detrimental to her mental health, would you be pro-choice for her then ?

That's a very good question. I suppose a lot of factors need to be taken into account and each case should be looked at individually. If being grumpy is the extent of her stress then no, but if she's likely to kill herself then yes. Of course there is a lot of grey area in between.

And I'll just jump in and say the poll aspect of this was a little shortsighted. Should have planned it out a lot more.

Dades

Dades wrote: »

Just playing Devil's Advocate here...

DinoBot wrote: »

So will you be hoping the government take away cancer health care to people who smoked as well ? How about car crash victims, their fault for driving, let them die !

Thanks for listening!

herya

I am against abortion entirely

all the stars wrote: »

Just to say, in the case of consentual sex - there are so many ways not to get pregnant these days that are almost 100% effective.
It should be alot about being responsible - if you are sexually active making a concious choice "yes i want kids now - lets get pregnant" or "im not ready to have kids and lets take precautions"

odviously in the case of Rape things would be differant -

There is no 100% sure way to avoid pregnancy. The best contraceptives always have this 1% of uncertainty left and it means up to 1 pregnancy for each 100 intercourses. Meaning there may be somebody using contraceptives but still getting pregnant in your neighbourhood tonight!

The only way to be sure would be to use several contraceptives at once every single time but it's not realistic for any real life couple unless they mate once a month and take a day off work to prepare for it beforehand.

So yes, unwanted pregnancies will happen no matter how responsible people are trying to be.

Dades

herya wrote: »

The best contraceptives always have this 1% of uncertainty left and it means up to 1 pregnancy for each 100 intercourses.

Eh, no. There are a few other factors involved (ovulation, for a start).
Of course people can, and will be unlucky, but frankly the majority are likely to be just careless.

all the stars

herya wrote: »

There is no 100% sure way to avoid pregnancy. The best contraceptives always have this 1% of uncertainty left and it means up to 1 pregnancy for each 100 intercourses. Meaning there may be somebody using contraceptives but still getting pregnant in your neighbourhood tonight!

The only way to be sure would be to use several contraceptives at once every single time but it's not realistic for any real life couple unless they mate once a month and take a day off work to prepare for it beforehand.

So yes, unwanted pregnancies will happen no matter how responsible people are trying to be.

em, was only trying to suggest people approach with a more responsible attitude..
and you will see in the post you quoted i said almost 100% effective.
Its honestly quite easy to be responsible and dare i say safer.
As a woman myself - i know how easy it can be to get pregnant, and i had a mature enough attitude to take precautions, im only trying to encourage others to do the same.

Galvasean

I am against abortion except for in cases of rape and also incest

TBH I think its naive for anyone to be relying exclusively on one form of contraception. Heck, half of people these days don't even know how to put a condom on properly.

herya

I am against abortion entirely

all the stars wrote: »

em, was only trying to suggest people approach with a more responsible attitude..
and you will see in the post you quoted i said almost 100% effective.
Its honestly quite easy to be responsible and dare i say safer.
As a woman myself - i know how easy it can be to get pregnant, and i had a mature enough attitude to take precautions, im only trying to encourage others to do the same.

I agree with you, that's what I do too. But I guess that every sexually active woman should think about this issue sometimes - what if it happens to me, despite of all these never known to fail precautions I've taken. I've seen a girl totally lose her head when her pill failed. I think she believed in its efficiency too much.

gramlab

Slightly off topic but, the wife is due soon and she was saying she heard that the unavailability of early scans in this country (unless paying for private scans) as compared with say the UK is down to anti-abortion/church influences about possible choices being made about abortions in the case of finding a problem early on.

Any truth to this??

DinoBot

I am against abortion entirely

gramlab wrote: »

Slightly off topic but, the wife is due soon and she was saying she heard that the unavailability of early scans in this country (unless paying for private scans) as compared with say the UK is down to anti-abortion/church influences about possible choices being made about abortions in the case of finding a problem early on.

Any truth to this??

Id say no, I think its more to do with hospital waiting lists and the usual poor health system we have here.
But, I have thought the same TBH.

MrPudding

I am against abortion entirely

gramlab wrote: »

Slightly off topic but, the wife is due soon and she was saying she heard that the unavailability of early scans in this country (unless paying for private scans) as compared with say the UK is down to anti-abortion/church influences about possible choices being made about abortions in the case of finding a problem early on.

Any truth to this??

DinoBot wrote: »

Id say no, I think its more to do with hospital waiting lists and the usual poor health system we have here.
But, I have thought the same TBH.

A few years ago when the GF was pregnant with our 2nd child, who was born in Dublin, we were told this was the case by the ultrasound operator. Kind of. The way the nurse put it was there was no point in getting more scans as there was nothing you could do anyway. So not sure which way round it is....

We went private with the 3rd child and the OBGYN told us exactly the same thing.

In the UK you will get maybe 6 scans or more during the course of a pregnancy.

MrP

DinoBot

I am against abortion entirely

MrPudding wrote: »

A few years ago when the GF was pregnant with our 2nd child, who was born in Dublin, we were told this was the case by the ultrasound operator. Kind of. The way the nurse put it was there was no point in getting more scans as there was nothing you could do anyway. So not sure which way round it is....

We went private with the 3rd child and the OBGYN told us exactly the same thing.

In the UK you will get maybe 6 scans or more during the course of a pregnancy.

MrP

WOW ! Thats crazy. I think its very lazy of the government not to sort this issue out.

Dades

DinoBot wrote: »

WOW ! Thats crazy. I think its very lazy of the government not to sort this issue out.

I'm not sure what the government can do about it.

Our first is due at the end of the Summer and we've had every scan available because She Who Must Be Obeyed wanted private. They told us Ireland is virtually the only country in the world that doesn't as a matter of course test fetuses for certain common abnormalities.

I've heard stories of how the doctors in the public service have to tippy-toe around the issue of tests such as nuchal translucency as they cannot be seen to be advocating anything to do with the "A" word. On the other hand some would-be parents have received stern treatment from their doctors for even inquiring about it. It's a matter of luck unless you're willing to pay for private.

Personally I think if there is test to tell you if your child is going to be a creationist you should be able to get it done. :pac:

Rev Hellfire

I am against abortion except for in cases of rape

The poll has one glaring omission in my view, abortion on healthgrounds.
But then in such a case the mothers life will typically be placed first unless instructed to do otherwise.

DinoBot

I am against abortion entirely

Dades wrote: »

I'm not sure what the government can do about it.

...............I was of the thinking that the government would have to be involved at some stage in changing the law of the country.

MrPudding

I am against abortion entirely

Having experienced a semi private and a fully private birth in Ireland I can say the difference, with respect to abnormality testing, is huge.

Dades wrote: »

I'm not sure what the government can do about it.

Quite. Aside from allowing abortions that is.

Dades wrote: »

Our first is due at the end of the Summer and we've had every scan available because She Who Must Be Obeyed wanted private. They told us Ireland is virtually the only country in the world that doesn't as a matter of course test fetuses for certain common abnormalities.

Our first child was born in NI. We got a scan every month until 7 - 8 months in. Then it went to a scan every two for the last 6 weeks or so. Then we moved to Ireland and were told there was 2 scans, or maybe 3 I can’t remember. We found this quite shocking.

Dades wrote: »

I've heard stories of how the doctors in the public service have to tippy-toe around the issue of tests such as nuchal translucency as they cannot be seen to be advocating anything to do with the "A" word. On the other hand some would-be parents have received stern treatment from their doctors for even inquiring about it. It's a matter of luck unless you're willing to pay for private.

Exactly our experience. When we went semi private there was no mention of anything to do with abnormality testing or additional scans. When we went private the OBGYN was very upfront about testing. As she put it, it would give us the information we needed to make a decision on what we wanted to do. The evil A word was never mentioned, but it was very very clear what she was talking about.

Dades wrote: »

Personally I think if there is test to tell you if your child is going to be a creationist you should be able to get it done. :pac:

Agreed.

MrP

Rev Hellfire

I am against abortion except for in cases of rape

DinoBot wrote: »

...............I was of the thinking that the government would have to be involved at some stage in changing the law of the country.

That would involve the general population having a say and as we all know around here they aren't intelligent enough to make complmacated hard decisions for themselves.

Dades

^^ Exactly ^^

The government can't "allow" abortion any more than they can sign an EU Treaty.

robindch

MrPudding wrote: »

Then we moved to Ireland and were told there was 2 scans, or maybe 3 I can’t remember. We found this quite shocking.

We had two scans in Ireland, but little talk of abnormalities, so the missus had a full scan done in Moscow for EUR120 which included one of those dinky 3D scan DVD's with the adorable little critter suspended in space looking surprised -- mucho cool.

roy harper

Undecided

25% of pregnancy's miscarries before 6 weeks, 6% there after!

God is the most prolific abortionist of them all.............

MrPudding

I am against abortion entirely

Bah, who needs abortion to be legalised in Ireland. Sure we just export the problem and then pretend there is nothing wrong.

In 2007 66% of foreign national abortions in the UK were Irish women. That was 4686 abortions, for those that gave the correct country of course. The next highest with 18.9% (1343 abortions) was Northern Ireland.

Sure we can just pretend it doesn't happen.

Source: http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/PublicationsStatistics/DH_085508

MrP

BurnsCarpenter

I don't think I'll ever understand how the pro-choice viewpoint is so firmly associated with liberals/lefties. I tick most leftie boxes but am against abortion on demand. I could only approve in cases where the mother's life was at risk.

Just a couple of points:

The argument that the rights of the mother outweigh the rights of the foetus - So they should, but there are degrees here. We're talking about the rights of the mother to an inconvenience free 9 months versus the right of the foetus to life. (Don't mean to belittle what is a huge event for the mother and one that can obviously be very traumatic, but it has to be said.)

Also, the argument that the potential of the foetus/zygote equates to the potential of sperm is obviously flawed.

ChocolateSauce

I am against abortion entirely

I'm pro-abortion.

I take the same stance as the labour party in the house of commons, namely that 28 weeks is generally a time frame where the chance of the foetus surviving outside the womb goes from being negligible to being small.

Atheists against abortion is something I really, really don't get. The entire premise of being pro-life is that embryos have souls. If you don't believe in a soul, surely a ball of cells is not worth the same as a person?

Dades

Pro-abortion, eh? Sounds militant!

theozster wrote: »

The entire premise of being pro-life is that embryos have souls.

Indeed a popular stance - but I doubt the only one. There are plenty of people I'm sure that would consider 20-something week embryos as little babies for other reasons.

ChocolateSauce

I am against abortion entirely

Dades wrote: »

Pro-abortion, eh? Sounds militant!

Indeed. You can be pro-life and pro-choice, by thinking it is wrong but accepting that other people don't agree and leaving the choice up to them.

Or, like me, you can think abortion is good, and be pro-abortion and pro-choice.

I have nothing against pro-life-ers, only anti-choice-ers.

DinoBot

I am against abortion entirely

theozster wrote: »

I'm pro-abortion.


Atheists against abortion is something I really, really don't get. The entire premise of being pro-life is that embryos have souls. If you don't believe in a soul, surely a ball of cells is not worth the same as a person?

Well a lot of Atheists would also believe people don't have souls either. A point must be reached where the ball of cells no longer is and a human begins.

JC 2K3

I am against abortion entirely

BurnsCarpenter wrote: »

Also, the argument that the potential of the foetus/zygote equates to the potential of sperm is obviously flawed.

How so?

Galvasean

I am against abortion except for in cases of rape and also incest

DinoBot wrote: »

Well a lot of Atheists would also believe people don't have souls either.

If atheists went about killing people on the basis of whether or not they have souls there wouldn't be many people left.

DinoBot wrote: »

A point must be reached where the ball of cells no longer is and a human begins.

Exactly.

who is this

I am against abortion entirely

I'm extremely anti-abortion, but very much pro-choice: I think abortion should be avoided at all costs and discouraged, but if that's what a woman wants to do, then she should be able to do it, without judgement etc.