Abortion from a Atheist viewpoint

Tim Robbins · 09-07-2008 4:07pm

Undecided

dynastygal wrote: »

No, it's not nonsense, because most abortions obviously wouldn't occur 1 hour before birth *rolls eyes*.

If you're going to try refute my opinion, at least use a logical, and likely to happen scenario/argument.

You are just avoiding the issues. By hightlighting the one hour before, it shows you have problems delineating. Or if you don't perhaps you'd like to tell us when / where / why the delineation is?

Hypothetical, and thought experiements play a huge role in ethical philosophy because they challenge the soundness of arguments. So bear that in mind before you ask other people for logical arguments.

Delirium · 09-07-2008 4:08pm

I am against abortion entirely

dynastygal wrote: »

To me it is a women's issue. It's her body. Sorry my opinion offends the opposite sex, but that's how it is. Don't like it, go get a sex change

Wouldn't agree with that. Of course the woman carries the child. But to make it a women's issue puts the responsibilty solely on the woman.

In reality, I don't see what I could do if the woman wanted an abortion and I was opposed.

mollydolly271 · 09-07-2008 4:10pm

I am against abortion entirely

Tim Robbins wrote: »

What makes you think, women should have the de facto right, to make the decision alone? If that's what you are trying to infer.

no i'm sayin that if a man and woman are together they can decide what to do together but if they are not together its the womans choice as in men cant get pregnant so will never have to face it alone....

Tim Robbins · 09-07-2008 4:23pm

Undecided

mollydolly271 wrote: »

no i'm sayin that if a man and woman are together they can decide what to do together but if they are not together its the womans choice as in men cant get pregnant so will never have to face it alone....

Unless the woman has been having Sex with several men, regularly she doesn't know and cannot contact after sex, she should know the father or have a way of contacting him. Are you saying the father can absolve himself from responsibility?

somethingwitty · 09-07-2008 4:27pm

I am against abortion entirely

Dades wrote: »

hehehe.

So although I feel it should be an option, it pains me to think of how casually it might be taken.

I dont really think that anyone considering an abortion could approach the situation casually.... I can assure you that it will be a difficult decision for any woman who is faced with it.

Im Pro choice.....
I really believe that it is a moral decision...made based on personal opinion. Therefore the views of others should not affect the choices available to other people, it is important that women are allowed to make their choice based on their own beliefs. Everyone should be allowed to live their lives the way they want.
I really dont think that the matter of whether or not the baby can feel pain should have any bearings on the issue. Call me cruel if you like... but the mother and father are the important ones at the end of the day. However, its horrible that in England you can have an abortion up to 24 weeks, this should be reduced.

Anyway... we can travel to England to have one IF we have the money. Having abortion illegal in Ireland is pointless as all it does is allow inequality and ensure the poverty cycle is kept well and truly alive. The people who have the money travel to England and the people who dont stay here and have a baby, live in their council house because all of their money is spent on nappies, and live with the reality that better-off women dont have to face.

Tim Robbins · 09-07-2008 4:27pm

Undecided

dynastygal wrote: »

To me it is a women's issue. It's her body. Sorry my opinion offends the opposite sex, but that's how it is. Don't like it, go get a sex change

This is what I meant by selfishness. Here is an example, where someone thinks that other people, Father and Fetus being the most obvious are excluded from decision.

Dades · 09-07-2008 4:28pm

mollydolly271 wrote: »

no i'm sayin that if a man and woman are together they can decide what to do together but if they are not together its the womans choice as in men cant get pregnant so will never have to face it alone....

Congratulations, you're pro choice, but why turn this into a man/woman thing?

In fact it would surprise me if the majority of pro-lifers weren't actually women.

Tim Robbins · 09-07-2008 4:30pm

Undecided

somethingwitty wrote: »

Everyone should be allowed to live their lives the way they want.

Do you include a fetus in that? If not why not?

Dades · 09-07-2008 4:31pm

somethingwitty wrote: »

However, its horrible that in England you can have an abortion up to 24 weeks, this should be reduced.

Why is it horrible? Because it looks more like a baby?

Tim Robbins · 09-07-2008 4:31pm

Undecided

Dades wrote: »

Congratulations, you're pro choice, but why turn this into a man/woman thing?

In fact it would surprise me if the majority of pro-lifers weren't actually women.

Pro-lifers is just as asinine as Pro-choice. All this rhetoric shows how far we away from having an intelligent debate on such an important issue.

Did you read that link I sent you?

Dades · 09-07-2008 4:39pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Pro-lifers is just as asinine as Pro-choice. All this rhetoric shows how far we away from having an intelligent debate on such an important issue.

Pro-lifer makes sense from the POW of one. Though in reality you seem to be the only one having difficulty with the terminology here - without actually indicating why, or what to use instead.

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Did you read that link I sent you?

I never got a PM if that's what you mean...?

Tim Robbins · 09-07-2008 4:44pm

Undecided

Dades wrote: »

Pro-lifer makes sense from the POW of one. Though in reality you seem to be the only one having difficulty with the terminology here - without actually indicating why, or what to use instead.

I never got a PM if that's what you mean...?

I put this in a previous post:

http://books.google.ie/books?id=Tot9PBjLNCQC&pg=PA34&lpg=PA34&dq=colin+mcginn+abortion+%22pro-choice%22&source=web&ots=Rm3X-bIdU2&sig=lJdTCz5xkaekhDkfsQTvY1w-rRQ&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA33,M1

Page 33 down.

somethingwitty · 09-07-2008 4:44pm

I am against abortion entirely

Well no I dont really include the fetus in that because I think the mother is the more important person in that situation. If the fetus was growing somewhere else other than inside someones body Id say Ok, but the mother is the priority, I think.
And the fetus doesnt really 'want' to live their life in any particular way...they are a fetus. I wouldnt think they have any particular aspirations...

And no, not because it LOOKS more like a baby... because I think it is more like a baby...
Brain starts functioning at 11 weeks.
And I think that a mother aborting at 24 week would be a bit too traumatic. They may think they will be ok but that would have to mess someone up. Theres a bump at that stage...I mean psychologically its a bit much...

Tim Robbins · 09-07-2008 5:01pm

Undecided

somethingwitty wrote: »

If the fetus was growing somewhere else other than inside someones body Id say Ok, but the mother is the priority, I think.

Location is moot. A thought experiment clearly illustrates that. Suppose a baby had to re-enter the womb is it ok to kill it then?

And the fetus doesnt really 'want' to live their life in any particular way...they are a fetus. I wouldnt think they have any particular aspirations...

That's not as black as white as you think. It's actually quite hard to quanity and understand the wants of the fetus. Sure a mother can speak and articulate them and a fetus can't. But does that invalidate the fetus's? A baby can't articulate its wants to live so can you then therefore kill a baby? How do you differentiate between the wants of a baby and a fetus? You can't. So you you can't there validate an abortion of a fetus by invalidating their wants. Unless you are consistent and validate infanticide, which I doubt that to be your view.

Dades · 09-07-2008 5:03pm

Tim Robbins wrote:

I put this in a previous post:
http://books.google.ie/books?id=Tot9...esult#PPA33,M1

Isn't the abortion issue muddy enough without getting into semantics about the various group names?

Pro-choice for me does not make a definitive stance on whether abortion is moral or not - it simply says it is morally wrong to dictate to another human what they do with their body. This control is the primary concern that takes precedence over the secondary one. 'Pro-lifers' consider the secondary concern of more importance.

somethingwitty wrote: »

And I think that a mother aborting at 24 week would be a bit too traumatic. They may think they will be ok but that would have to mess someone up. Theres a bump at that stage...I mean psychologically its a bit much...

Interesting. I consider that a fair point.

Tim Robbins · 09-07-2008 5:11pm

Undecided

Dades wrote: »

Isn't the abortion issue muddy enough without getting into semantics about the various group names?

Pro-choice for me does not make a definitive stance on whether abortion is moral or not - it simply says it is morally wrong to dictate to another human what they do with their body. This control is the primary concern that takes precedence over the secondary one. 'Pro-lifers' consider the secondary concern of more importance.

Poor semantics is what is preventing proper intelligent debate on a very important issue, as that link I sent points out very well.

They are doing nothing to their body, they are killing another body which is located inside their body.

mollydolly271 · 09-07-2008 5:11pm

I am against abortion entirely

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Unless the woman has been having Sex with several men, regularly she doesn't know and cannot contact after sex, she should know the father or have a way of contacting him. Are you saying the father can absolve himself from responsibility?

your totally picking me up wrong here i never said men can absolve themselves from responsibity but there r plenty of situations when a woman has to make the choice on her own eg:one night stand,bad relationship,rape,abuse etc etc .. but there could not be a situation when a man would have to makke that choice on his own because they could never get pregnant at all never mind from any of the above named situatons

Dades · 09-07-2008 5:18pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

They are doing nothing to their body, they are killing another body which is located inside their body.

I find that sentence odd coming from someone who chose the "I am against abortion except for in cases of rape and also incest" option in the poll.

Perhaps poor semantics have affected you.

somethingwitty · 09-07-2008 5:20pm

I am against abortion entirely

No actually don't believe its 'black and white'....Trust me I dont think its black and white, Im not the type of person who thinks its that clear cut,Im open to everyones opinion... Im just laying out what my beliefs are. SO please do not make such presumptious comments.
But anyway.....
How can a baby want anything out of life apart from what instinct tells it to want, i.e food, warmth... It doesnt know anything else. The mother will want all this and more, a career, to travel, freedom to live their life as they want. I dont think that the fetus is invalid, I just think that, at the end of the day, the rights of the mother should be the priority. Simple as that.
Do you not think that in an issue where we could argue until the cows come home whether its right or wrong, that the decision should just be left to the individual themself?
I think thats what this boils down to.
And no, I dont thing that if a baby re entered the womb it would be ok to kill it because it had already begun its life. I see a difference between life and being alive.

Tim Robbins · 09-07-2008 5:24pm

Undecided

mollydolly271 wrote: »

your totally picking me up wrong here i never said men can absolve themselves from responsibity but there r plenty of situations when a woman has to make the choice on her own eg:one night stand,bad relationship,rape,abuse etc etc .. but there could not be a situation when a man would have to makke that choice on his own because they could never get pregnant at all never mind from any of the above named situatons

I agree with you there are times when it will just be the woman on her own, but what if she lives her life to increase the chances of that? has several one night stands with no protection. In my opinion, I don't think that should be considered to be the same as rape just because the fetus doesn't know any different.

mollydolly271 · 09-07-2008 5:25pm

I am against abortion entirely

well said somethingwitty

Tim Robbins · 09-07-2008 5:26pm

Undecided

Dades wrote: »

I find that sentence odd coming from someone who chose the "I am against abortion except for in cases of rape and also incest" option in the poll.

Well it's ok unless the fetus is the Mother's body. Are you saying it is?

Tim Robbins · 09-07-2008 5:31pm

Undecided

somethingwitty wrote: »

How can a baby want anything out of life apart from what instinct tells it to want, i.e food, warmth... It doesnt know anything else. The mother will want all this and more, a career, to travel, freedom to live their life as they want. I dont think that the fetus is invalid, I just think that, at the end of the day, the rights of the mother should be the priority. Simple as that.

So the rights of the Mother can take precendence over the baby too?
And she can kill it if she wants?

Do you not think that in an issue where we could argue until the cows come home whether its right or wrong, that the decision should just be left to the individual themself?

Ok, leave it to the fetus and we never have an abortion so.

And no, I dont thing that if a baby re entered the womb it would be ok to kill it because it had already begun its life. I see a difference between life and being alive.

Ok, so you agree your point about location is invalid or moot then.

Dades · 09-07-2008 5:40pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Well it's ok unless the fetus is the Mother's body. Are you saying it is?

You must have missed my point, because I've sure missed yours.

Why would you be favourable toward abortion in cases of rape? Is it because the mother had no choice? I thought (according to your link) the term choice was simply rhetoric - a way of avoiding the issue of whether abortion is immoral or not?

somethingwitty · 09-07-2008 5:49pm

I am against abortion entirely

Yes the rights of the mother can take precedence over the baby, ok? Theyre more important, haven't I made that clear? Do you really need to ask me that question?...

Ive made it clear that I think that the mother is the most important individual, not the baby, so we can have abortion.

My point about location being invalid is not moot.... its ok to kill it before it leaves the womb, but not after. HOw does that render my opinion invalid?

I think that you are a bit too forceful with your opinion and I dont really like how you pick on the finest details of someones arguement rather than addressing the core point.

Tim Robbins · 09-07-2008 5:50pm

Undecided

Dades wrote: »

You must have missed my point, because I've sure missed yours.

Why would you be favourable toward abortion in cases of rape? Is it because the mother had no choice? I thought (according to your link) the term choice was simply rhetoric - a way of avoiding the issue of whether abortion is immoral or not?

In reference of abortion debate, the popular terms "pro-choice" and "pro-life", which are regularly used, are meaningless, are just sophistry and do not deal with the pertinent factors. The link makes some good arguments why, did you read it?

That doesn't mean the concept of "choice" or the word "choice" should be excluded from all debates, including abortion.

Tim Robbins · 09-07-2008 5:52pm

Undecided

somethingwitty wrote: »

Yes the rights of the mother can take precedence over the baby, ok? Theyre more important, haven't I made that clear? Do you really need to ask me that question?...

So you are infavour of infanticide then?

My point about location being invalid is not moot.... its ok to kill it before it leaves the womb, but not after. HOw does that render my opinion invalid?

Because the thought experiment shows a contradiction.

I think that you are a bit too forceful with your opinion and I dont really like how you pick on the finest details of someones arguement rather than addressing the core point.

Well you have to examine the finer details otherwise you are not reallying thinking about any core point. That is what ethical philosophy is all about.

Suggest have a read of the link I posted Dades. Begin of chapter to end, it only takes about 15 minutes.

OK-Cancel-Apply · 09-07-2008 7:46pm

I am against abortion entirely

Tim, could you please clarify your position on why abortion is ok for incestuously conceived foetuses?

mollydolly271 · 09-07-2008 7:56pm

I am against abortion entirely

Tim Robbins wrote: »

So you are infavour of infanticide then?

Because the thought experiment shows a contradiction.

Well you have to examine the finer details otherwise you are not reallying thinking about any core point. That is what ethical philosophy is all about.

Suggest have a read of the link I posted Dades. Begin of chapter to end, it only takes about 15 minutes.

I'm sure we all have better ways to spend 15 mins!!!!!!!!!! I know i do.

Mark Hamill · 09-07-2008 8:00pm

somethingwitty wrote: »

How can a baby want anything out of life apart from what instinct tells it to want, i.e food, warmth... It doesnt know anything else. The mother will want all this and more, a career, to travel, freedom to live their life as they want. I dont think that the fetus is invalid, I just think that, at the end of the day, the rights of the mother should be the priority. Simple as that.

And at what stage do you think a foetus starts wanting a career, to travel, and more? 11 weeks after conception? 24 weeks? How about after birth? Have you seen a baby a few weeks old? All they do is eat and sleep and cry if they get hungry, cold or soil themselves. If you justify abortion on the basis of the foetus not having any desires beyond the the basic animal desires, then you have to include infants.

Abortion from a Atheist viewpoint

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