Speaking Directly

Jannah

True, but somehow I don't believe that these target demographics are divinely inspired

DinoBot

the_new_mr wrote: »

Yeah, I thought it would have a term like that. Thanks for educating me on the term. I don't think I had/have it though (at least in the cases I have in mind). Sorry to disappoint you

:D

But just to add, I called it confirmation bias because it "interpret new information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions" so if the experience you had was the experience of a devout christian it might make him believe in the christian god and not your god.

Unless your telling me it was so specific that it had to be the Islamic god and EVEN if a christian had the exact same experience he would also come to the conclusion it was the Islamic god and not his christian god. (....whew, that was even hard to write , hope it makes sense)

the_new_mr

You're completely missing the point DinoBot. My experience had nothing to do with proving an Islamic God or a Christian God (although, essentially, they are the same God). It was just an experience with God. A prayer followed by guidance too strange to be coincidence.

DinoBot

the_new_mr wrote: »

You're completely missing the point DinoBot. My experience had nothing to do with proving an Islamic God or a Christian God (although, essentially, they are the same God). It was just an experience with God. A prayer followed by guidance too strange to be coincidence.

That is my point, you thought your experience was from your god. Isnt it a bit strange that your experience was with your god and not with Krishna or Kaili ?

the_new_mr

That's not what this thread was about. The OP was asking whether or not we believed that God spoke directly to any of us, not how any spiritual experiences we had proved that our religion was the correct one.

I don't think that my experience necessarily proves that Islam is the true religion and I never said it did.

DinoBot

the_new_mr wrote: »

That's not what this thread was about. The OP was asking whether or not we believed that God spoke directly to any of us, not how any spiritual experiences we had proved that our religion was the correct one.

I don't think that my experience necessarily proves that Islam is the true religion and I never said it did.

I am not saying you think it proves Islam, but you did say it proves god and your conclusion is thats its the Islamic god. If the experience you has happened to me I seriously doubt I would come to the same conclusion.

But hey I'm being a bit light hearted here anyhow

the_new_mr

DinoBot wrote:

I am not saying you think it proves Islam, but you did say it proves god and your conclusion is thats its the Islamic god.

Where did I say that? I don't remember it and it seems that I'm about to be diagnosed with split personality as well if I did

Isn't your question contradictory anyway? You say at the start of your question that I don't think it proves Islam but then say at the end of the question that it proves God and that my conclusion is that it's the Islamic God.

My belief that it's the Islamic God is independent of the experience in question.

DinoBot

the_new_mr wrote: »

Where did I say that? I don't remember it and it seems that I'm about to be diagnosed with split personality as well if I did

Isn't your question contradictory anyway? You say at the start of your question that I don't think it proves Islam but then say at the end of the question that it proves God and that my conclusion is that it's the Islamic God.

My belief that it's the Islamic God is independent of the experience in question.

Well in the bit you said ---"Actually, this might sound a little crazy (and perhaps, a little petty?) but I often feel that God kind of sends me signs with certain films"

Your saying you get signs set through film, and your conclusion is its from god. And I assume you only believe in one god ie, the Islamic god. Hey presto !

Lets assume you do in fact get signs from films, where is you evidence its from a supernatural power and do you have evidence its from the Islamic version of that super natural power ? Or is that based on you bias toward that belief that supports your conclusions about the signs.

the_new_mr

DinoBot wrote:

Well in the bit you said ---"Actually, this might sound a little crazy (and perhaps, a little petty?) but I often feel that God kind of sends me signs with certain films"

Your saying you get signs set through film, and your conclusion is its from god. And I assume you only believe in one god ie, the Islamic god. Hey presto !

Ah now, hold on. I definitely said what you put in bold there but you can't say that my conclusion of my experience is that it's from the Islamic version of God (I decided that's a better way of putting it than the Islamic God so that people don't think that the Islamic God is different to the God that they know).

I believe that God is the way that Islam sees Him because of other reasons. Not because of my experience so you can't put words in my mouth (or in my post as the case may be). There's no hey presto about it.

DinoBot

the_new_mr wrote: »

Ah now, hold on. I definitely said what you put in bold there but you can't say that my conclusion of my experience is that it's from the Islamic version of God (I decided that's a better way of putting it than the Islamic God so that people don't think that the Islamic God is different to the God that they know).

I believe that God is the way that Islam sees Him because of other reasons. Not because of my experience so you can't put words in my mouth (or in my post as the case may be). There's no hey presto about it.

Okay. But how come you didn't think your "signs" could have been from another god ?

the_new_mr

Well, that's rather obvious. It's because I already believe that God is the Islamic version of God so, if I ever get any signs which I believe could only be from God, then I naturally believe it's from the Islamic version of God. So, it's not because of the experience that I believe it's from the Islamic version of God. It's just that I believe it's from the Islamic version of God because I already believe that God is the Islamic version of God.

DinoBot

the_new_mr wrote: »

Well, that's rather obvious. It's because I already believe that God is the Islamic version of God so, if I ever get any signs which I believe could only be from God, then I naturally believe it's from the Islamic version of God. So, it's not because of the experience that I believe it's from the Islamic version of God. It's just that I believe it's from the Islamic version of God because I already believe that God is the Islamic version of God.

Well I thought it obvious ages ago but you seemed to be missing it :rolleyes:

So, it IS confirmation bias as its a tendency to search for or interpret new information (a "sign" from a film") in a way that confirms one's preconceptions (must be god talking) and avoids information and interpretations which contradict prior beliefs (must be Islamic god, even if the "sign" in question has nothing to do with Islam so could be from ANY god)

Is it not weird that all religious people hear god or get signs from god and its ALWAYS the god they believe in. You would think most would get signs from the one true god. You don't believe in Jesus as god so what about people hearing the will of jesus, are they lying or mistaken ?
But hey, Id like to be that important that the creator of the universe will take time out to give me a sign, plus instead of talking to me, will do it through a film I happen to be watching.
Kind of handy and not to mention entertaining. A real multi-tasker.

the_new_mr

DinoBot wrote:

Well I thought it obvious ages ago but you seemed to be missing it :rolleyes:

Actually DinoBot, it seems that in your eagerness to take the piss, it's you who have missed it

I honestly thought it was clear enough in my previous post but it appears not.

Let me explain it to you (in a chronological manner).

1.: The OP asked if we thought that God spoke to us directly. I replied that I don't believe that God speaks to anyone directly anymore (in the sense that He spoke to Moses or Mohamed (peace be upon them)) but that God may send "signs" to people.

2.: You wondered why I drew the conclusion that it was from the Islamic version of God.

3.: I explained that I didn't draw the conclusion that it was from the Islamic version of God and that I had already come to that conclusion for other reasons. The only conclusion I drew from the experiences were that it was from God (that I already believed in for other reasons and from the version I already believed for other reasons)

4.: You then seemed to still not get what I'm trying to say in your last post (so I shall try to elaborate).

QED

You say that it's confirmation bias. If you want to say that it's confirmation bias that I see a sign from God (that I already believe in) then that's your opinion and it perfect logic for a sceptic. However, you can't say that it's confirmation bias that I see it's from the Islamic version of God since (and I'm saying this for the third time now) since I don't take the experiences as proof of the Islamic version of God (or necessarily for the existence of God at all... perhaps just a confirmation).

You seem to be discussing a point different to the one OP and I are talking about. If you want to discuss why people believe in the God they believe in then that is well out of scope of this thread and should be discussed elsewhere (it is of course an absolutely huge topic. Possibly the biggest and most important question in religion as a matter of fact so don't expect it to be resolved too quickly).

Do you see what I mean?

And, even though it is out of this thread's scope, I feel compelled to answer your question of:

DinoBot wrote:

Is it not weird that all religious people hear god or get signs from god and its ALWAYS the god they believe in. You would think most would get signs from the one true god. You don't believe in Jesus as god so what about people hearing the will of jesus, are they lying or mistaken ?

They could be lying or mistaken or it could actually be God. God Himself says that "His mercy exceeds His anger" in a hadeeth qudsi (qudsi = holy where a hadeeth qudsi is Mohamed (peace be upon him) transmitting a thought of God in His own words).

"So why would God guide someone who doesn't believe in Him the way He wants them to? Isn't that unfairly leading them on?" I hear you say (and it's been said on this forum before... in reference to the same topic by the way).

Well, the answer is simple. Since His mercy exceeds His wrath, He can't help but help. Also, if it were that simple then there would be no room for the mind/heart to make a decision on which is the correct faith. Only a complete idiot would fail to realise that Islam (in our case obviously) was the only true faith if this was the case.

DinoBot wrote:

But hey, Id like to be that important that the creator of the universe will take time out to give me a sign

We are both nothing and important at the same time and of course I believe that nothing is beyond God's power.

DinoBot

the_new_mr wrote: »

You say that it's confirmation bias. If you want to say that it's confirmation bias that I see a sign from God (that I already believe in) then that's your opinion and it perfect logic for a sceptic.

Yes, thats what I was saying.

the_new_mr wrote: »

.....However, you can't say that it's confirmation bias that I see it's from the Islamic version of God ...

Okay, sorry, perhaps I underestimated you. So you say that you believed the signs to be from god, so did you explore the possibility the signs might be from another god other than your Islamic one ?

the_new_mr

DinoBot wrote:

Yes, thats what I was saying.

It seemed to me like you were saying that you felt it was confirmation bias that I was saying it must have been from God as He is in Islam even though that's not what I was saying. Oh well. Never mind.

DinoBot wrote:

So you say that you believed the signs to be from god, so did you explore the possibility the signs might be from another god other than your Islamic one ?

What can I say? My belief in the fact that God is as He is described in the Quran (based on other things) means that I didn't. In isolation, the sign itself could have been from any power but my previously held beliefs made me believe that it was from God as in Islam.

DinoBot

the_new_mr wrote: »

It seemed to me like you were saying that you felt it was confirmation bias that I was saying it must have been from God as He is in Islam even though that's not what I was saying. Oh well. Never mind.

What can I say? My belief in the fact that God is as He is described in the Quran (based on other things) means that I didn't. In isolation, the sign itself could have been from any power but my previously held beliefs made me believe that it was from God as in Islam.

So you say the signs could be from any power, so could they also be just in your head ?

From the Schizophrenia Ireland wesite:
http://www.sirl.ie/schizophrenia.php

"Delusions are false personal beliefs held with extraordinary conviction in spite of what others believe and in spite of obvious proof or evidence to the contrary. For example, a person experiencing delusions may believe that thoughts are being inserted into their mind or that they have special powers or are someone famous (for example Jesus Christ or Elvis). People may also think that they are being spied on, tormented, followed or tricked, or may believe that gestures or comments are directed specifically at them. "

Could it be you have mixed up "signs" with delusions ? Its weird that if someone were to say they get signs in movies from Aliens people would get worried but if they say its from their god people accept it.
Is it common for muslims to think god speaks to them through the movies or tv in general ?

Hobbes

Dinobot will be contemplating the Forum Charter for the next week.

Equating someones beliefs to Schizophrenia while may seem ok for you is a breach of charter and rude. I trust everyone else stays on topic.

the_new_mr

DinoBot wrote:

So you say the signs could be from any power, so could they also be just in your head ?

No, I did not say that. I said that in isolation, they could be seen as coming from anywhere but I also said that I believe that they are from God and that it's the version of God described in Islamic texts.

I suppose I could accept them to simply be a product of my head but then, judging by the weirdness of what happened, that would give me some kind of supernatural powers... which I guess according to that definition you posted still has me down as deluded. Anyone for some catch-22?

DinoBot wrote:

Its weird that if someone were to say they get signs in movies from Aliens people would get worried

I'd probably be much less inclined to believe it but I think I'll keep an open mind towards it all the same. You never know and there's nothing in Islam to say that we're not alone in the universe

I think I'm ready to talk about the experience but I'll spare the details if that's okay as it's still a little personal.

Essentially, I'd been thinking about the same subject for a while and it had been bothering me quite a bit. It involved travelling and that meant leaving behind responsibilities. I shall keep the particular subject private but allow me to say that it's nothing obviously forbidden in Islam.

Anyway, so a large number of times when I was particularly upset when thinking about this particular subject, I would be channel hopping and sort of happen across this film. It was always in the same part of the film too which is the part that hit hardest with respect to the subject. I thought it weird but (and some of you sceptics will be happy to know ), I put it down to a possible coincidence to begin with since I was thinking about it so much and it was only natural that this film would coincide with me thinking about it (if I think about it every day and the film comes on twice then the film came on when I was thinking about it twice). This happened about 2 (maybe 3) times or so (and, it should be said, one particular time where I was thinking intensely about the subject).

Then, much later on, I consulted a scholar to get his opinion on the whole thing. He wasn't very helpful and, as a result of this meeting, I lost a lot of respect for this particular scholar. But, strangely, the film came on the next day (and this time I saw it from the start). I really felt like this was a sign from God this time.

But there's more

Almost a year later, I was thinking a lot about this same subject once again and was praying one day and during my prayer to God, I asked Him something along the lines of "I know it's stupid to say this and I'm sorry for even mentioning it but were those times just coincidence or were You trying to tell me something? If the film were to come on now, would that mean something? Would that be You trying to tell me something? I know that's a ridiculous thing to ask and that it wouldn't necessarily mean anything at all if the film weren't to come on now so please forgive me for asking such a thing" And, you guessed it, BAM!! The very next film on TV was it. I was totally weirded out.... to say the least!! That was 4 times (at least) with 2 of those coming at very peculiar times and the last one coming directly after a prayer!

I questioned myself a good bit (once again, this will no doubt please the sceptics) and asked myself lots of questions like if there was any way I could possibly have overheard an ad for the film on TV as an upcoming film or something (even in my sleep) but eventually came to the conclusion that it couldn't possibly have happened. Even if it did, it would be difficult to explain the other occurrences (a couple of them being weird enough in their own right).

I still remember the day vividly and get goosebumps when I think about it.

And, you know what, I still think it was too much of me to ask God for something like that and I'm not sure if I'll ever do it again. For sure, you can't say "Well, I'll pray to God to show me a sign like that and if it doesn't happen then there's no God". It doesn't mean it has to happen, had to happen with me or ever will happen with me again. It's just the way it happened.

I wasn't even going to say any of this actually (and had even opted on posting it on two previous occasions) but I felt that my sanity was being questioned and I felt a responsibility to get it out there so that my postings wouldn't lose credibility.

I know some people here may think I'm lying (and some may even think I'm crazy) but, you know what? I don't care

O'Morris

What was the film that you kept on seeing?

the_new_mr

LOL!

I knew it was only a matter of time before someone asked that question

I'm really sorry but if you don't mind, I'll keep that bit private. As I said, it's nothing obviously forbidden in Islam. It's something that might or might not be forbidden. It might even be okay but not right for me.

You're very welcome to the Islam forum by the way O'Morris. Don't think I've seen you here before.

hivizman

Two comments on the long post from the_new_mr:

A German (I think) psychologist called Klaus Conrad coined the term "apophenia" in 1958 to refer to the phenomenon where we perceive connections between events where there is no obvious relationship or cause, and as a consequence attribute "abnormal meaningfulness" to the connections. Although Conrad was writing about mental illness, apophenia is not in itself a symptom of mental illness, and is often a sign of creativity in making unusual connections. Examples of apophenia include seeing meaningful pictures in objects (such as an image of Jesus in a pizza), hearing structured sounds within white noise, and reading meaning into coincidences.

But the possibility that there may be a "rational explanation" for something does not, I believe, exhaust all the meaning or significance from an event. So if what happened had a special meaning to you, and the best way you can make sense of this is to see it as a sign from God, then you just won't buy the argument that coincidences happen, and we remember the ones that are significant for us rather than the ones that don't have significance.

That's one comment. The other is a bit different. While I was down under earlier this month, someone suggested that I should read the poems of the 13th century Persian poet and scholar Rumi. One short extract from his writings seems quite relevant here:

"It is said that after Muhammad and the prophets revelation does not descend upon anyone else. Why not? In fact it does, but then it is not called 'revelation.' It is what the Prophet referred to when he said, 'The believer sees with the Light of God.' When the believer looks with God's Light, he sees all things: the first and the last, the present and the absent. For how can anything be hidden from God's Light? And if something is hidden, then it is not the Light of God. Therefore the meaning of revelation exists, even if it is not called revelation."

Fihi ma fihi [Discourses of Rumi]
quoted from William C. Chittick, The Sufi Path of Love:
The Spiritual Teachings of Rumi

the_new_mr

Thanks for that post hivizman.

I think the phenomenon of apophenia coined by Klaus Conrad is similar to the confirmation bias mentioned by some people in a few posts on this thread so far.

But, as you already know, it's not applicable to me. I'm a very rational person but some things are just too weird and impossible to be a mere coincidence... so I guess Rumi's statement has more relevance to me

Although, I don't think anyone can see the first and the last and the present and the absent. I imagine that that is something that only God is capable of seeing. Still, I know that God guides those with His light and I believe that God has guided me in that situation (amongst others).

DinoBot

the_new_mr wrote: »

Thanks for that post hivizman.

I think the phenomenon of apophenia coined by Klaus Conrad is similar to the confirmation bias mentioned by some people in a few posts on this thread so far.

But, as you already know, it's not applicable to me. I'm a very rational person but some things are just too weird and impossible to be a mere coincidence... so I guess Rumi's statement has more relevance to me

Although, I don't think anyone can see the first and the last and the present and the absent. I imagine that that is something that only God is capable of seeing. Still, I know that God guides those with His light and I believe that God has guided me in that situation (amongst others).

Well in some cases the principle of Occam's razor should be used:

"All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best."

How is such communication seen from an Islamic point of view. I always thought such personal "revelations" were frowned upon in Islam. Have you any reference that the prophet said allah communicates to people in this way ?

hivizman

There's a lovely and quite funny "convert to Islam" video on YouTube that involves signs from God (or just weird coincidence).

Occam's Razor needs to be used judiciously. Using DinoBot's form of the principle (strictly, Occam's principle is "entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem" or "entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity"), what actually is the simplest solution? Is is (a) that the_new_mr's experience is just a bizarre coincidence (if not an example of wishful thinking or even some mental abnormality), or (b) signs sent by God to provide guidance? It's not obvious to me that one of these solutions is plainly simpler than the other.

My own worry is an epistemological one: how can we be sure that an apparent personal "sign" is actually coming from God rather than the Devil?

Standman

the_new_mr wrote: »

Thanks for that post hivizman.

I think the phenomenon of apophenia coined by Klaus Conrad is similar to the confirmation bias mentioned by some people in a few posts on this thread so far.

But, as you already know, it's not applicable to me. I'm a very rational person but some things are just too weird and impossible to be a mere coincidence... so I guess Rumi's statement has more relevance to me

Although, I don't think anyone can see the first and the last and the present and the absent. I imagine that that is something that only God is capable of seeing. Still, I know that God guides those with His light and I believe that God has guided me in that situation (amongst others).

Personally, I think this is an obvious example of wishful thinking. I mean, if you had not read the Quran and never heard of Islam would you still have known this was a message from Allah, the god of Islam? I presume the answer is no. I think it is as simple as that.

hivizman

Standman wrote: »

Personally, I think this is an obvious example of wishful thinking. I mean, if you had not read the Quran and never heard of Islam would you still have known this was a message from Allah, the god of Islam? I presume the answer is no. I think it is as simple as that.

The_new_mr will, I am sure, have a response to this, but I think that, if we are to believe that people receive revelations, signs or messages from God (rather than just interpret external or mental phenomena as messages), we need to think about the form and the content of the messages. If for the moment we accept that God provides us with signs that he wants us to respond to, then it is surely reasonable to deduce that God will "speak" in our own language and within our own culture. So the form of the message should be something that we are capable of receiving and reacting to (this doesn't mean that we will react: given the existence of free will it is open for us to reject God's signs and messages). So, even though the content of the message may be strange, the form in which it is communicated has to be something that the recipient is receptive to.

As an example, consider the conversion of Saul as told in chapter 9 of the Acts of the Apostles. Saul is on the road to Damascus, where he is going to persecute the followers of Jesus, when "suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, 'Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?' He asked, 'Who are you, Lord?' The reply came' 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.' In this episode, Saul must be culturally able to interpret this light and voice in a particular way, rather than simply saying to himself "Oh dear, another of my bad migraines." However, the chapter goes on to discuss how Saul was provided with corroboration of his experience (others with him heard the voice; later in Damascus, Ananias came to Saul in response to a vision of his own), and I think that it is when signs and messages not only seem to pile up but also appear to be corroborated that people start to say that the "coincidence" and "wishful thinking" explanations seem less convincing than the explanation that this is in some way a message from God.

Similarly, when the first revelation came to Muhammad, it was during a period when he had retreated into the hills around Mecca to pray and meditate, and he was already receptive to the idea that God would communicate with people on Earth and make them His prophets. So the "cultural" context was already there to make him receptive to being the recipient of revelation. However, if the Islamic historian At-Tabari is to be believed, Muhammad went through a period of doubt, wondering whether he was in some way possessed, or even that he had made the revelation up himself in the manner of an ecstatic poet. His wife Khadija helped him to calm his nerves, and Khadija's cousin Waraqa, a Christian, also provided moral support. However, there was still some initial doubt in Muhammad's mind about whether the messenger bringing the revelation from God (whom Muhammad had identified as the angel Gabriel) was indeed an angel or a devil (shaytan).

However, I agree with Standman that modern-day "signs" and "messages" are more likely to come from within ourselves (you could call that "wishful thinking" if you want to) than from a divine source. Many years ago when I was much younger, there was a fashion for using the Chinese book the I Ching as a way of looking for answers to questions and advice on what to do. To use the I Ching involved a rather complex series of ritual actions and then heavy concentration on trying to interpret arcane and elliptical statements. Of course, some people claimed that they found genuine and useful answers and advice, but I thought that the more plausible explanation was that the ritual activity and the thinking process involved in trying to interpret that answers given put people into a frame of mind in which they were able to concentrate fully on the issue involved rather than being distracted. In such a mental state they were more likely to come up with reasonable answers to their issues, which they would then attribute to the I Ching. And of course we tend to remember the "positive" outcomes when we get an answer that seems to make sense and leads to fruitful consequences rather than the "negative" outcomes when the answer doesn't make sense. So once again it's confirmation bias.

the_new_mr

Standman wrote:

Personally, I think this is an obvious example of wishful thinking. I mean, if you had not read the Quran and never heard of Islam would you still have known this was a message from Allah, the god of Islam? I presume the answer is no. I think it is as simple as that.

Did you read this post of mine? Or this one? Or this?

I find it fascinating that some people are so prepared to dismiss such things as coincidence or confirmation bias when the events unfold in this manner. Everybody is free to their own opinion I guess...

Standman

the_new_mr wrote: »

Did you read this post of mine? Or this one? Or this?

I find it fascinating that some people are so prepared to dismiss such things as coincidence or confirmation bias when the events unfold in this manner. Everybody is free to their own opinion I guess...

Ok, apologies, I hadn't previously read those posts!

So short answer is; no, if you had not read the Quran before this incident you would not have known the sign or message was from the Islamic god.