No Vote = Worthless? No Voters = Stupid?

Scofflaw

Inquitus wrote: »

Lets look at the Facts.

1) The Lisbon Treaty cannot be ratified without agreement of all 27 States.
2) The other countries are continuing with the ratification process.
3) The only reason to do so is to try and force a 2nd Referendum further down the line, when its 26 v 1.

Actually, that's not the case at all. The ratification has to proceed as a show of solidarity, and of commitment to the process of progressing the EU project. That is actually far more important than bullying Ireland into a second referendum. We have provoked a crisis which other people are having to deal with, and over which we have no further control.

cordially,
Scofflaw

dlofnep

dlofnep wrote: »

It's not scare-mongering. It's a fair assessment of the EU and an assessment that many people across the EU would agree with. Just because you label it scaremongering doesn't make it so.

Au contraire it's a almost perfect definition of scaremongering.

Painting a picture of us all losing our vote to a new world order/elete where we're ruled by masters/elete is as bad as the hard drugs scare to be honest.

O'Morris

Inquitus wrote: »

30% of no voters voted no because they didn't understand it...i.e. no idea if it was good or bad....the information was available for everyone to spend time gaining an understanding,

That's assuming that is was only the uninformed people who didn't understand the treaty. There were plenty of well informed people who didn't understand it either. The businessman Ulick McEvaddy read the treaty 4 times and he still didn't understand it
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0420/eulisbon.html

dlofnep

Deleted User wrote: »

Au contraire it's a almost perfect definition of scaremongering.

Painting a picture of us all losing our vote to a new world order/elete where we're ruled by masters/elete is as bad as the hard drugs scare to be honest.

Cute that. Lob in a few key-phrases like "NWO" and try make it out to be a big mad conspiracy theory. I expected such a weak attack. It's not a theory, the EU wants to become another global super-power. I don't buy into a "one world government", but the EU most certainly wants to control everything within the EU from the top down.

So no, it's not scaremongering. Only to people like you is it scaremongering. I'm a rational person, and many rational people believe that Europe is becoming to centralised. Nothing to do with conspiracies, alex jones, nwo or any of that other malarky.

murphaph

Scofflaw wrote: »

Actually, that's not the case at all. The ratification has to proceed as a show of solidarity, and of commitment to the process of progressing the EU project.

Why didn't they continue with ratification in the other 25 states when the dutch and french said no to the constitution then?

nesf

murphaph wrote: »

Why didn't they continue with ratification in the other 25 states when the dutch and french said no to the constitution then?

Because there were more referendums involved that had a strongish chance of a No result which would have not been a very good show of "solidarity and commitment"?

murphaph

nesf wrote: »

Because there were more referendums involved that had a strongish chance of a No result which would have not been a very good show of "solidarity and commitment"?

What? You think that's a good argument? You're saying that because the constitution being rejected by the ordinary people is would look bad? Look bad for whom?

limklad

Inquitus wrote: »

Lets look at the Facts.

1) The Lisbon Treaty cannot be ratified without agreement of all 27 States.
2) The other countries are continuing with the ratification process.
3) The only reason to do so is to try and force a 2nd Referendum further down the line, when its 26 v 1.
4) The Gov may well not be able to hold a 2nd referendum given the political climate and the damage it may do, so that leaves us in limbo.

The Irish voting public did not make an informed and rational decision on this treaty. I question whether something as complex as this can be understood by enough of the electorate in a sufficient manner for a meaningful referendum, it's the reason we elect a Government and they have hoards of experts on EU Law etc etc is to make complex decisions on matters the layman knows little or nothing about. Obviously everyone in this and other threads has taken time to come to an informed decision on what they feel is best for the country, but we are a minority out of those who cast a vote.

30% of no voters voted no because they didn't understand it...i.e. no idea if it was good or bad....the information was available for everyone to spend time gaining an understanding, if you are too lazy or stupid to do some research don't vote blindly, 18% of voters cited the lies peddled by Libertas on abortion and conscription etc as the reason for voting no....2 issues completely unrelated to the treaty and used for scaremongering only, 10% to give the Government a bloody nose.

I am sure a large number of people also voted Yes with little or no knowledge of the Treaty.

Now whether the result would have been any different if everyone who voted had a clue about the Treaty I don't know, but this was a distorted referendum where a significant number of people voted largely on issues unrelated to the Lisbon treaty.

Where did you get those figures of the reasons people who voted No and yes, I WANT TO VERIFY.

nesf

murphaph wrote: »

What? You think that's a good argument? You're saying that because the constitution being rejected by the ordinary people is would look bad? Look bad for whom?

I don't think it's a good argument, I just think that as a show of solidarity about reform continuing with ratification only makes sense if you're pretty sure the rest of the countries involved will ratify it.

Irish and Proud

dlofnep wrote: »

We are DAMN greatful of the EU, but we still have every right to control our own future. A country for the people and by the people.

...and the EU should be greatful for the use of our huge fishing waters - apparently, Ireland has 42% of the EU's fishing waters and were worth some €150bn over the 15 years since the Maastricht Treaty came into force!

dlofnep wrote: »

So lads, there you have it. Even though we went out in our 100,000's to vote no - it doesn't matter. Because Europe still want to press on, despite polls across Europe and the result in our own referendum telling them that we are not happy with it. If they push another referendum, then I will campaign twice as hard to ensure power is restored to the people. Our voice will be heard again, whether they like it or not. I will NOT be bullied into a vote.

John.

I've been campaigning for a No vote on this forum but I was a bit out of my depth. Of course, I voted No! However, if there is another referendum on Lisbon, the Yes camp can expect far more robust opposition! I too will not be bullied and will vote no the second time, third time...

Regards!

marco_polo

Irish and Proud wrote: »

...and the EU should be greatful for the use of our huge fishing waters - apparently, Ireland has 42% of the EU's fishing waters and were worth some €150bn over the 15 years since the Maastricht Treaty came into force!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055314533

We have a thread going on this topic here. Perhaps you would be so good as to to supply the references for those facts and figures there.

dlofnep

dlofnep wrote: »

Cute that. Lob in a few key-phrases like "NWO" and try make it out to be a big mad conspiracy theory. I expected such a weak attack. It's not a theory, the EU wants to become another global super-power. I don't buy into a "one world government", but the EU most certainly wants to control everything within the EU from the top down.

I don't agree with your analysis.
Furthermore I don't agree that GB and HMG would acquiesce to such a blue print and as they are at the heart of of the decision making process re Lisbon your thesis falls.

So no, it's not scaremongering. Only to people like you is it scaremongering. I'm a rational person, and many rational people believe that Europe is becoming to centralised. Nothing to do with conspiracies, alex jones, nwo or any of that other malarky.

Saying something is so whether you or I say it doesn't make it so.
I read your statement as a scaremonger but it doesn't scaremonger me.
For what it's worth,I don't want an EU ala US of E at all.
I'm perfectly happy to take practical proposals on merit though to streamline the existing co operation.

turgon

Inquitus wrote: »

The Irish voting public did not make an informed and rational decision on this treaty.

Your point? The voting public includes both the Yes and No sides, so apparently making an uninformed decision would cancel out.

Unless of course you agree with the typical anti-no idea - all the No voters were off their head and all the Yes voters were perfectly aware.

nesf

turgon wrote: »

Your point? The voting public includes both the Yes and No sides, so apparently making an uninformed decision would cancel out.

Ignorance cancels out ignorance? What?

turgon

nesf wrote: »

Ignorance cancels out ignorance? What?

Its really a simple idea. If 100,00 ignorant people vote No, and 100,00 ignorant people vote Yes, they cancel out.

Much like my parents vote canceled each other out.

mike65

Yes iggerance - Good

Mike.

nesf

turgon wrote: »

Its really a simple idea. If 100,00 ignorant people vote No, and 100,00 ignorant people vote Yes, they cancel out.

Much like my parents vote canceled each other out.

Right, but what about if those 200,000 people were informed and they voted 140,000 No and 60,000 Yes or vice versa?

Second point. Which is more accurate a view of the people on a document, an uninformed one or an informed one? Which one is more "valid"? Etc.

turgon

nesf wrote: »

Right, but what about if those 200,000 people were informed and they voted 140,000 No and 60,000 Yes or vice versa?

Second point. Which is more accurate a view of the people on a document, an uninformed one or an informed one? Which one is more "valid"? Etc.

Yeah I know. Im just saying you cant accuse on side of being more ignorant than the other. Unless you really did some research.

nesf

turgon wrote: »

Yeah I know. Im just saying you cant accuse on side of being more ignorant than the other. Unless you really did some research.

Most reasonable people are complaining that large numbers on both sides didn't know what they were really voting on. When you throw in the thought of how many abstained for this reason interpreting the meaning of the result becomes more complex.

thebman

marco_polo wrote: »

The bitter comments from certain european leaders have been regrettable, but we should not let them tarnish our view of the EU too much. Although a yes supporter I also found them insulting, I think they were born out of more out of frustration rather than real intent and I expect a much more concillatory tone next week.

The Brittish government have clearly stated that while they are continuing to ratify the Treaty it is meaningless unless Ireland come on board.

I don't see why we shouldn't let them tarnish our view.

They basically let their true feelings of what they think of the Irish electorate out!

I'm unbelievably insulted that they basically said fook the Irish people.

I'll be voting no next time they try to get this through to spit back in their faces. They have seriously p*ssed off a lot of the Irish people with these statements and it won't be quickly forgotten.

Signed,

a previous yes voter.

marco_polo

brim4brim wrote: »

I don't see why we shouldn't let them tarnish our view.

They basically let their true feelings of what they think of the Irish electorate out!

I'm unbelievably insulted that they basically said fook the Irish people.

I'll be voting no next time they try to get this through to spit back in their faces. They have seriously p*ssed off a lot of the Irish people with these statements and it won't be quickly forgotten.

Signed,

a previous yes voter.

Fair enough you are entitled to use your vote any way you please. I for one will not let the opinions of a leader of a foreign country influnce my thinking on how I will vote in any future referendum on the country.

BTW Remember you have to write them a letter to tell them how you voted or else they will not know that you have smoted them. :rolleyes:

j1smithy

Was reading a piece by John Palmer in the Irish Times today. He seems to believe that the Treaty can go ahead if its referrred to the European Council and our government agrees not to stop it. It would create a situation where Ireland would only be able to participate in institutions unchanged by Lisbon, ie Ireland would operate under Nice, while the rest continue on.

An interesting permutation that I haven't seen mentioned before.

limklad

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Our vote would be bypassed if we did not have a referendum, instead we have apologist politicians where us the electorate have let them down. Other countries did not get to vote for the Treaty but their MEP's did, not the same thing.

It is not the electorate that has let the politicians down. It is the politicians who have let the electorate down, because they never asked us, if we want this in the first place. They never ask us what changes would we like in the EU.

Lisbon Treaty is the politician’s pet project, Not electorate, and the electorate told the politicians who is truly the boss.

The NO vote to the Lisbon Treaty has expose one thing that politicians do not respect the will of the people and will bypass their say when it is convenience. Their (the politicians) actions in this affair is not democratic.

Mr.Micro wrote: »

What do MEP's do anyway for us?

They have heard us but not listen to us or tried to find out what we wanted.

NO to Lisbon treaty have woken our politicians up to start connecting to their voters in both domesticly and EU politics.

NO to Lisbon treaty has rewaken democracy and the people have started to discuss it again.

When Sarkozy (French President) and other EU leaders asked for a new treaty to replace the failed EU constitution, they wanted to word it so that it can bypass the people, That is not democratic and is an attack on democracy and to EU citizens.

Thomas Jefferson, third President of the United States wrote:

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

Now there is a power struggle between the people and the governments whenever we realise it or not.

limklad

j1smithy wrote: »

Was reading a piece by John Palmer in the Irish Times today. He seems to believe that the Treaty can go ahead if its referrred to the European Council and our government agrees not to stop it. It would create a situation where Ireland would only be able to participate in institutions unchanged by Lisbon, ie Ireland would operate under Nice, while the rest continue on.

An interesting permutation that I haven't seen mentioned before.

EU Governments needs to be careful, or we will be have our very own Blue Revolution, similar to those seen in Ukraine and Serbia.

ixtlan

limklad wrote: »

Now there is a power struggle between the people and the governments whenever we realise it or not.

It's not a "power struggle"! The problem is that people just don't care about politics and they don't trust the politicians. If the people were struggling against the government they would elect Sinn Fein and others into power, or if those were unacceptable and the people really wanted to struggle, they would form new parties that promoted their view of the EU.

The fact that politics continues without any dramatic changes, here and in the EU, shows that life is too stable and policies are generally agreed by everyone to operate in the middle. Where is the struggle?! It's easy to vote no when you have not been offered a choice as to what the no means.

It will be interesting if Libertas becomes a Euro-skeptic party next year. I would hope they won't do well, and I suspect they would not because then they would be political... and the public will see them as just like FF/FG.

Ix.

suimhneas

Do you know what’s driving me crazy..... people talking about Ireland and the Irish as if we are a bold 3 year old, that just need to be steered in the right direction, "maybe if we sit them down and explain to them steer them onto the right path" just drives me mad, then all these other knobs going on about the recession that’s going to hit us now, like hello we are in the throws of a recession now, we are in Europe now and this is happening now, its not all just suddenly happened since last Friday. Saying how all these major European employers are now going to decide now not to come to Ireland or maybe pack up and leave us, i don’t know about the rest of the county but i know where im from the major employers are American, cannot think of one eu employer, as a matter of fact there isn’t one in this part. As for kicking us out of Europe, bring it on, people should not be afraid to go back to a time when we were more self sufficient, we had our own fuel, ( turf which the EU now wants to ban) We had our own crops, we had our own fish, we had our own meat, we knew what we were eating and where it came from. We are not bold children we are a highly intelligent resourceful nation. Im didn’t vote no so that the government would do a dirge about how stupid we are to not understand the treaty, i voted no cause im sick to death of been stopped living the way we always have. Sanction after sanction, we have looked after our land our crops our fish, our bogs for hundreds and thousands of years. A lot of what has been stopped by the EU is what made this county attractive to tourists, our farmers on the bog, our fishermen, the hay stacks, i know it all sounds a bit twee to city dwellers perhaps. But when its gone is not the time to be missing it, it too late then

Tim Robbins

suimhneas wrote: »

Do you know what’s driving me crazy..... people talking about Ireland and the Irish as if we are a bold 3 year old, that just need to be steered in the right direction, "maybe if we sit them down and explain to them steer them onto the right path" just drives me mad, then all these other knobs going on about the recession that’s going to hit us now, like hello we are in the throws of a recession now, we are in Europe now and this is happening now, its not all just suddenly happened since last Friday. Saying how all these major European employers are now going to decide now not to come to Ireland or maybe pack up and leave us, i don’t know about the rest of the county but i know where im from the major employers are American, cannot think of one eu employer, as a matter of fact there isn’t one in this part. As for kicking us out of Europe, bring it on, people should not be afraid to go back to a time when we were more self sufficient, we had our own fuel, ( turf which the EU now wants to ban) We had our own crops, we had our own fish, we had our own meat, we knew what we were eating and where it came from. We are not bold children we are a highly intelligent resourceful nation. Im didn’t vote no so that the government would do a dirge about how stupid we are to not understand the treaty, i voted no cause im sick to death of been stopped living the way we always have. Sanction after sanction, we have looked after our land our crops our fish, our bogs for hundreds and thousands of years. A lot of what has been stopped by the EU is what made this county attractive to tourists, our farmers on the bog, our fishermen, the hay stacks, i know it all sounds a bit twee to city dwellers perhaps. But when its gone is not the time to be missing it, it too late then

You could go out and live in a field, roll around in the muck and no-one would stop you. It's nothing to do with Lisbon. But unfortunately for many other people, including myself who work in the tech sector, active positive participation in the EU is a must.

Have you got a morgage? Well the Euro devalued 1.7% percent on Friday. Inflation is already too high in the Euro zone and the ECB will go up in July now.

We need stability and agreement between 27 countries or we are f*cked.
Now, if you want to give out about ECB fine, but then you have to leave the Euro zone. We could return to the punt and our own central bank.

Again, if you all want to do is roll around in the field you'll be fine.

But other people, for example those who work in the tech sector or anthing with an international angle, will find it harder to find work.

faceman

Tim Robbins wrote: »

We need stability and agreement between 27 countries or we are f*cked.
Now, if you want to give out about ECB fine, but then you have to leave the Euro zone. We could return to the punt and our own central bank.

Yeah, Im all for a return to the days of interest rates of 14% on mortgages! :eek:

suimhneas

Inflation is already too high in the Euro zone and the ECB will go up in July now.


How many times has inflation gone up in the past say 2 years, is that to be blamed on the lisbon treaty as well?

suimhneas

"Again, if you all want to do is roll around in the field you'll be fine.
"

Love it when idiots show their ignorance