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Alcohol Bill 2008 Re: Opening Hours (merged)
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I shouldn't have to though, they're also reducing off-license opening hours to 10pm if i remember, and if you know a gaff that has international acts playing until the wee hours i'd like to know about it.
I'm told this summary is the info given to the gardai:
Sale of alcohol
*Wine off-licences, which may be obtained at present directly from the Revenue Commissioners, will in future require a District Court certificate.
*The grounds on which objection may be made to the grant of a District Court certificate for any off-licence will be extended to include consideration of the needs of the neighbourhood and the adequacy of the existing number of off-licences in the area.
*Off-sales of alcohol will be permitted only between 10.30 a.m. and 10.00 p.m. (12.30 p.m. to 10.00 p.m. on Sundays).
*Provisions permitting early morning opening of public houses in the vicinity of fairs and markets will be repealed.
*In future, alcohol products must be displayed and sold in supermarkets, convenience stores, etc. in a specified area which is structurally separated from the rest of the premises or, where such separation is not possible, alcohol products must be displayed and sold from behind a counter (this will not affect specialist off-licences or duty free shops).
*Test purchasing of alcohol products will be permitted and it will apply both to on-licences and off-licences; appropriate safeguards for the protection of the young people concerned will be required.
Extended opening hours
*The public order ground on which the Gardai may object to the grant of a special exemption order by the District Court, or its duration, is being strengthened.
*In future, the District Court may not grant any such order unless the premises concerned comply fully with fire safety standards.
*A new statutory requirement to have a CCTV system in place in premises availing of special exemption orders for events to which the public are admitted are taking place, i.e. nightclubs and late bars, is being
introduced.
*In future, premises with theatre licences may only remain open after normal closing times if a special exemption order has been obtained from the District Court.
Public order
*New powers will permit a member of the Garda SÃ*ochána to seize any bottle or container which is in the possession of a person who appears to be under the age of 18 and which the member suspects, with reasonable cause, contains alcohol which has been consumed, is being consumed, or intended to be consumed, by a person under 18 years in a place other than a place used as a private dwelling.
*New powers will permit the seizure of bottles and containers containing alcohol where there is a reasonable apprehension of public disorder and which may be used to require a person to leave the place
concerned in a peaceable and orderly manner. Alcohol promotions and discount sales
The Bill provides for the making of detailed regulations in future to prohibit or restrict advertising or promoting the sale or supply of alcohol at a reduced price or free of charge on the purchase of any quantity of intoxicating liquor or of any other product or service. Regulations may also be made which will prohibit events or activities which are intended or likely to encourage excessive consumption of alcohol.
Penalties and sanctions
Certain fines in the Licensing Acts 1833 to 2004 and fines under the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994 are being increased (Schedules 1 and 2). In addition, a minimum closure period of two days will apply in the case of convictions for certain offences under the Licensing Acts.0 -
O FFS. Yes many Irish people drink far too much, but go to many other countries and you will see the same. Friday nights in Boston will see plenty of pissed people with too much on board, and they are not all Irish! I enjoy a drink but frankly hate the need to get obliterated attitide. I like to have a few beers and enjoy myself, and being told to pack off home at 2am seems to smack of being treated like a child being told to go to bed. Some nights I go home early, others I just want to keep on going and if the music plays until 3am I would stay.
Dealing with the excessive consumption of alchol in Ireland requires a cultural shift, telling us all to bugger off home and shutting the bar at 2am means many more rounds of shots ordered at 1.30am as people try and get the most out of a short night. Allowing people to pace themselves, and wow, maybe go to a night club to listen to a decent DJ until 3am might not be a bad idea.
Again however, the gombeen men in the dail know whats best for me so I'd better listen.......
I agree, wholeheartedly. These proposals are really stupid: If any thing they perpetuate the Irish people's childish attitude to alcohol. It's putting a fence around alcohol that makes it seem like the 'be all and end all' to Irish people.
One of the reasons why the French, for example, dont hold alcohol in such high esteem as us Irish, is because from the age of about 12 most of them are drinking wine regularly with their parents, just a glass or two, no big deal.
For us, there's no booze at all until you start knacker-drinking at 14 or whatever - it becomes associated with rebellion and freedom and most Irish people are under it's influence for most of the most important 'rites of passage' in their lives: From first kiss, to first shag, to first time at a party: As a result it becomes far more ingrained in us than for other people. Change that, and you'd be on to something.0 -
RealEstateKing wrote: »I can tell you this as somebody that doesnt drink (anymore) : Drink usually makes people loud, boring, and less funny than they are sober. In many cases it makes them irritatingly sentimental, and very often makes them lose any sense of how boring they are.
I take it you're hammered right now then?0 -
Yawn. Drinking is like really cool and it like makes you into like Keith Richards and stuff, could you be any more exactly like everybody else?0
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RealEstateKing wrote: »Yawn. Drinking is like really cool and it like makes you into like Keith Richards and stuff, could you be any more exactly like everybody else?
Not any more than not drinking turns you into Cliff Richard. G'wan have an oul' beer. T'won't kill you.0 -
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far more than I care to remember. Its simply the attitude that not drinking means you're not fun that bothers me.
Just cause alcohol happens to be the drug that you use to accompany fun, doesnt mean there's an essential connection between the two. You need booze to have fun, I dont.
Its no different to some gurning trance monkey telling you you havent heard music till you've been listening to house while out of your face on Disco Burgers: "Its ****in' deadly man, the bass drum goes whoomp-whoomp-whoomp, and den it stops and goes whoomp-whoomp-whoomp again, magic."
And you think: Well I actually like to enjoy good music, not take pills to make crap music seem good. No different with booze, just that booze is a more mainstream version of the same thing.0 -
RealEstateKing wrote: »I agree, wholeheartedly. These proposals are really stupid: If any thing they perpetuate the Irish people's childish attitude to alcohol. It's putting a fence around alcohol that makes it seem like the 'be all and end all' to Irish people.
One of the reasons why the French, for example, dont hold alcohol in such high esteem as us Irish, is because from the age of about 12 most of them are drinking wine regularly with their parents, just a glass or two, no big deal.
For us, there's no booze at all until you start knacker-drinking at 14 or whatever - it becomes associated with rebellion and freedom and most Irish people are under it's influence for most of the most important 'rites of passage' in their lives: From first kiss, to first shag, to first time at a party: As a result it becomes far more ingrained in us than for other people. Change that, and you'd be on to something.
Yep, I would like to see a few of those 'cafe-bars' proposed a few years ago, where you can sit outside on a footpath and enjoy a drink or two, not paying 15E into a club where the objective is to down as many shots as possible. So a definate change in attitude is needed. From my experience in the US, where the drinking age is 21, all it does is help to criminalize young people and forcing the drinking into house parties etc, people find a way around it, and at the end of the day people decide themselves how much and what they drink.
Frankly the closing of off licenses at 10pm is the nanny state at is worst, it means if I wish to get a DVD and bottle of wine at 11pm with my girlfriend then I can't, its essentially treating me like a child, something that I resent.
In fact longer opening hours in clubs would mean people spread their drinking over a longer period and may even drink less as they have to last a longer night. All in all I think this is a step backwards.
How about actively educating kids about alcohol at an early age, and also charging people that end up in A+E for drink related injuries etc. All this would help the attitude problem. Telling us we are bold boys and can't stay up past 2.30am smacks of the small minded attitude that seems prevalent in the dail at the moment.0 -
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Yep, I would like to see a few of those 'cafe-bars' proposed a few years ago, where you can sit outside on a footpath and enjoy a drink or two, not paying 15E into a club where the objective is to down as many shots as possible. So a definate change in attitude is needed. From my experience in the US, where the drinking age is 21, all it does is help to criminalize young people and forcing the drinking into house parties etc, people find a way around it, and at the end of the day people decide themselves how much and what they drink.
Im a drinker myself but i dont really agree with you here. Given irish 'culture', i dont see how introducing cafe bars is going to stem alcohol abuse or alcohol fuelled offenses/crimes. They cafe bars will still be serving alcohol.
Re the US, Ireland has a lower drinking age and longer opening hours than there. Yet alcohol hasnt dominated social culture in the US in the way it has here.RealEstateKing wrote: »One of the reasons why the French, for example, dont hold alcohol in such high esteem as us Irish, is because from the age of about 12 most of them are drinking wine regularly with their parents, just a glass or two, no big deal.
I dont agree. Most of the french people i know in Ireland and in France wouldn't agree with this statement either.
I dont really see how giving alcohol to kids at 12 years of age would teach kids not to abuse alcohol. Proper education that connects with younger generations is key.0 -
Today FM, now.0
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We are the rednecks of Europe. This is just another reason to consider leaving the country for the free thinking open minded pastures of the continent. :rolleyes:0
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The operative word.RealEstateKing wrote: »far more than I care to remember. Its simply the attitude that not drinking means you're not fun that bothers me.
Just cause alcohol happens to be the drug that you use to accompany fun, doesnt mean there's an essential connection between the two. You need booze to have fun, I dont.
There're loads of ways to have fun and different people enjoy different things.
"..but I respect the fact that you enjoy this music while on pills and I'm not going to dictate to anyone how to have fun"?RealEstateKing wrote: »Its no different to some gurning trance monkey telling you you havent heard music till you've been listening to house while out of your face on Disco Burgers: "Its ****in' deadly man, the bass drum goes whoomp-whoomp-whoomp, and den it stops and goes whoomp-whoomp-whoomp again, magic."
And you think: Well I actually like to enjoy good music, not take pills to make crap music seem good...
There's far too much elitism surrounding recreation.0 -
What i wanna know is what are they gonna do about honest to god pubs that just serve ordinary folk who don't want to be forced to go to niteclubs if they want to drink after a certain hour. I mean, i'm too old for bloody well avoiding every other bit of disco fanny spilling her Pernod and Black on me when there's a stampede to the floor as the DJ fires up 'Don't Stop Believing' by Journey.
Here's what needs to happen. Complete deregulation. Let the market work. My prediction? Carnage. Utter carnage for around 2-3 months and then you know what happens? People begin to realise "jesus, last friday i went drinking for 18 hours solid, and er, did a savage amount saturday as well...where's all my money gone" The great unwashed will start to cop on that their wallets aren't bottomless.
That's what'll stop people. Money. Or a lack thereof. That and alcohol poisoning. On the upside, i'll be able to go to my local boozer with me mates at 9 o'clock and if we want to stay there and sup decent Guinness and have the aul banter we can do it until all hours. Taking our time. Holding our drink. Welcome as long as Dermot behind the bar isn't sick of the sight of us. Us or the other punters who just like a nice pint in decent surroundings.
Now playing: Duffy - Serious
via FoxyTunes0 -
A forwarded response from FG:
Attached is a copy of Charlie Flanagans letter to me outlining our
position on the Bill
Regards
Denis Naughten TD
Dáil Eireann, Leinster House, Kildare Street, Dublin 2
Constituency: Lismard Court, Portlaoise, Co. Laois &
O'Moore Street, Mountmellick
Phone: 01 618 3625 & 05786 20232
Fax: 01 618 4568
Email: charles.flanagan@oireachtas.ie
Web: http://www.charlesflanagan.finegael.ie
23rd June 2008
Dear Denis,
Further to our conversation in respect of the Intoxicating Liquor Bill
2008, the following is a synopsis of Fine Gael.s position.
Fine Gael is supporting the Intoxicating Liquor Bill 2008 although we
have some serious reservations that we will be raising by way of
amendment at Committee Stage.
These concerns relate to the following matters:
.Early houses: Fine Gael opposes the abolition of early house liquor
licences on the basis that no evidence has been provided that these
establishments contribute to public disorder.
.Proposed infrastructural changes in retail outlets (barriers &
segregated areas): what the Minister is proposing is impractical and
will cause difficulties and hardship, we will be focusing strongly on
this issue at Committee Stage.
.Nightclub Opening Hours: We will be calling on the Minister to
introduce sequential closing in view of obvious public order concerns.
.ID cards: New proposals in the Bill to allow Gardaí to arrange to .test
purchase. alcohol without a reliable national ID card scheme are unfair
to retailers and we will be demanding that the Minister introduce an ID
scheme as a matter or urgency.
I have met and corresponded with a range of stakeholders in respect of
these issues including the LVA, the VFI, RGDATA, Musgraves and Centra.
While Fine Gael supports the general thrust of the legislation, we
believe that there are serious issues to be discussed at Committee
Stage.
Fine Gael will be opposing any guillotine or attempts by the Minister to
rush this bill through the Oireachtas. The Dáil is due to debate this
bill this week and I am anxious that there will be ample speaking time
for Fine Gael deputies.
Kind regards,
Charlie.
...
RTE article:
Ahern: No ban on early houses
Tuesday, 24 June 2008 23:05
The Minister for Justice has said he is not going ahead with a plan to ban on some pubs opening from 7.30am.
FG TD Charlie Flanagan said he supported the reprieve given to early houses but said that it was a U-turn.
Dermot Ahern said his Bill would reduce by 29 hours a week the time in which alcohol may be sold by supermarkets, petrol stations and off-licences.
AdvertisementThis would be achieved by changing the earliest time for alcohol to be sold in such outlets from 7.30am to 10.30am on weekdays and 12.30pm on Sundays.
The system of theatre licences - allowing pubs to stay open to 4am - had been an incentive to nightclubs to get such licences, he said. In future they might only operate to normal licensing hours, except where they got an exemption from the courts.
He said the idea of having early houses may sound antiquated but said those who argued in favour of them had made a reasonable case. He said the number of people working on nightshifts was increasing and not shrinking.
Deputy Flanagan said his party will be supporting the Bill.
He also supported the idea of doing away with theatre licences.
He said there was a 29% increase in the number of such licences given out in the last 5 years. Currently there are 80 such premises operating with such licences, with 20 applications pending.
He also said there huge increase in the number of off licences here in recent years.
In the last 7 years there had been a trebling in the number to the current total of 4,300.0 -
This was said in the Dáil the other day on the matter:
Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern):
I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."
I thank the House for agreeing to deal with the Intoxicating Liquor
Bill as an urgent matter and I look forward to the co-operation of
both Houses in having the legislation enacted before the summer
recess.
There is broad recognition in this House and beyond that legislative
reforms are needed to tackle public disorder and alcohol-related harm
resulting from excessive alcohol consumption. We routinely see
evidence of this need on our streets and in the accident and emergency
departments of our hospitals. We see it on our television screens and
in the newspapers. The problem is not confined to large urban centres
but affects small and medium-sized towns across the country as well.
This is a relatively short but ambitious Bill that will give effect to
reforms recommended by the Government alcohol advisory group. I take
this opportunity to thank the Chairman of the group, Mr. Gordon
Holmes, and its members for their work and especially for submitting
their report and recommendations within the very tight time limit set
by Government. Moreover, I thank the 200 or so organisations and
individuals who took the time to make submissions to the group and to
outline their particular concerns and priorities.
The advisory group submitted its report to my predecessor, Deputy
Brian Lenihan, on 31 March. The action taken by the Government by way
of very early publication of this Bill is a measure of the urgency and
seriousness with which the Government wants to deal with the
alcohol-related problems identified in the group's report. I urge the
House to give favourable consideration to the proposals in the Bill.
The strategy underpinning this Bill is also one which tackles the
increased visibility and availability of alcohol through retail
outlets with off-licences, while tightening the conditions under which
premises with on-licences qualify for special exemption orders
permitting them to remain open beyond normal licensing hours. The Bill
places renewed emphasis on enforcement of licensing law, particularly
in relation to underage drinking.
The Bill also strengthens public order provisions by including
measures to curtail alcohol consumption in public places, especially
by those under 18 years, and allowing gardaí to seize alcohol. The
Garda Síochána will also have powers to seize alcohol from any person,
regardless of age, where the consumption of alcohol in a public place
is causing, or likely to cause, annoyance or nuisance or a breach of
the peace.
The factors which influenced the advisory group in framing its
recommendations are explained in the report and I do not propose to
enter into the detail today. It is worth recalling, however, that
Ireland has one of the highest alcohol consumption levels in the
European Union. Average consumption of pure alcohol per person over 15
years of age in 2006 was 13.36 litres. This means that each person
aged 15 and over consumed an average of 20.8 standard units of alcohol
per week. Since the recommended maximum weekly consumption levels are
14 units for women and 21 for men, this means that many people are
drinking more than the recommended limits. Moreover, when account is
taken of the fact that up to 20% of adults do not consume alcohol at
all, the amount consumed by those who do is even greater and this
increases the likelihood of alcohol-related harm and public order
offences.
Ireland also stands out as having a particular problem with binge
drinking. The 2007 Eurobarometer survey found that 34% of Irish
drinkers consumed five or more alcoholic drinks in one sitting
compared with the EU average of 10%. When asked about the frequency of
consuming five or more drinks on one occasion, 54% of respondents in
Ireland stated that they did so at least once a week. This was the
highest figure recorded in the survey.
Regrettably, abuse of alcohol is also common among those aged under
18. The 2006 national study of health behaviour in school-age children
found that half of those aged 15 to 17 reported being current drinkers
and over a third reported having been "really drunk" in the previous
30 days.
The harmful effects of excessive consumption of alcohol have been well
documented in recent health research findings. The 2007 report by the
Health Research Bureau entitled Health-Related Consequences of Problem
Alcohol Use gives a good overview of the current situation. More
recently, the HSE report on alcohol-related harm in Ireland brought
together various data to illustrate the consequences of alcohol abuse
on health and other areas. It makes for uncomfortable reading. For
example, 28% of all injury attendances in accident and emergency
departments in acute hospitals are alcohol-related, alcohol was a
contributory factor in 36% of all fatal crashes, alcohol was involved
in a quarter of severe domestic abuse cases and 46% of those who
committed homicide were intoxicated at the time.
Workplaces are not immune either. A survey by IBEC reported that
alcohol and alcohol-related illnesses were cited by 12% of companies
as a cause of short-term absenteeism from work by males and by 4% of
companies as a cause of short-term absenteeism by women. There are
serious public order issues arising from excessive alcohol
consumption. Adult offences for intoxication in a public place have
doubled in the period 1999-2005 and juvenile offences have almost
trebled during the same period. While assault offences peaked in the
period 2000-02, public order offences, the majority of which are
alcohol-related, continue at unacceptably high levels. I am sure that
all of us in this House in our role as public representatives know
families who have direct experience of loss of life, sickness,
injuries, threats and abuse caused by excessive alcohol consumption.
It was against this background that the Government established the
Government alcohol advisory group in January last. The group was asked
to examine key aspects of the law governing the sale and consumption
of alcohol with particular reference to public order issues. It was
specifically requested to examine the following matters and to report
to the Minister with its assessment of the best way forward by 31
March 2008. The issues were as follows: the increase in the number of
supermarkets, convenience stores and petrol stations with off-licences
and the manner and conditions of sale of alcohol products in such
outlets, including below unit-cost selling and special promotions; the
increasing number of special exemption orders which permit longer
opening hours being obtained by licensed premises around the country;
and the use, adequacy and effectiveness of existing sanctions and
penalties, particularly those directed towards combating excessive and
under-age alcohol consumption.
As I mentioned already, Dr. Gordon Holmes acted as chairman of the
group and the membership included a professor of criminology, a public
health specialist, a senior member of the Garda Síochána and
representatives from the Departments of Justice, Equality and Law
Reform, and Health and Children. The group was, therefore, able to
draw on a considerable level of knowledge and expertise in the course
of its work.
Following extensive consultations and discussions with interested
parties, the group submitted a report containing 31 recommendations,
the majority of which advocate reform of the licensing laws and public
order legislation. These are the recommendations which form the basis
of the Bill before us. The group's remaining recommendations are the
subject of further discussions with Departments and the Garda
Síochána. Preparatory work on their implementation has already
commenced.
The proposals in the Bill, taken together, represent a coherent and
carefully balanced package of practical measures and reforms which are
designed to reduce access to alcohol, including its visibility within
retail outlets, while at the same time strengthening measures to
tackle public disorder and anti-social behaviour on the streets and in
our communities.
I know that the group's chairman, Dr. Holmes, had an exchange of views
at an early stage of the consultation process with the Oireachtas
Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights and
that the various views expressed by members on that occasion informed
the group's subsequent work. In addition, following publication of the
general scheme of the Bill in late April, my predecessor, Deputy Brian
Lenihan, presented the proposed contents of the legislation to the
select committee. I understand that committee members were broadly
disposed towards the Government's intentions.
A Bill to curtail the abuse and excessive consumption of alcohol would
not be complete if it did not address the public order problems that
are so often associated with excessive consumption. The Bill,
therefore, identifies two specific areas where action is both possible
and necessary.
The first of these areas concerns the possession of alcohol by young
persons under 18 years and its removal by gardaí. The second concerns
situations where the presence of alcohol is likely to result in
annoyance, nuisance or a breach of the peace. In such cases, gardaí
are given powers to seize the alcohol and move on the persons
concerned.
Provisions relating to persons under 18 years are set out in section
13 of the Bill. They apply to situations where persons under 18 years
are found in possession of alcohol in a place other than a place used
as a private dwelling. This could encompass a public street, a river
bank, an unoccupied or derelict dwelling or a building site.
Part IV of the Intoxicating Liquor Act 1988 already makes it illegal
for a person under 18 to buy alcohol or to consume it in any place
outside the home or in another person's home where they are present by
right or with permission. Section 13 adds a new section - section 37A
- to Part IV. Under the new section, where a garda suspects that a
person is under 18 years and that the person or anyone accompanying
that person is in possession of alcohol for the purpose of consuming
it in a place other than in a place used as a private dwelling, the
garda may seek an explanation and if not satisfied with the reply, he
or she may seize the alcohol.
A number of steps are required. The garda will first ask that the
alcohol be handed over voluntarily. Where that does not happen, the
garda will give a warning that he or she may arrest the person and
seize the alcohol and may use such force as is necessary to do so. A
person who fails to co-operate in either handing over the alcohol or
in giving details of his or her name, address and age may be arrested
and charged with an offence. On conviction, section 37A provides for a
fine of up to €500. The garda must make and retain a record of any
alcohol seized and disposed of.
Section 18 provides for the second major element of the public order
aspects of the Bill. It amends the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act
1994 by inserting a new section - section 8A - into that Act. The new
section is intended to deal with persons of any age who are in
possession of alcohol in a place other than a place that is used as a
private dwelling and who the garda believes are causing or are likely
to cause a nuisance or annoyance to others or there is or there is
likely to be a danger to persons or property or a breach of the peace.
In these circumstances, the Bill gives the garda powers to seize the
alcohol and authority to direct the persons to desist from their
activities and to move on. In this section,"place" has the same broad
meaning as in the new section 37A. The procedures to be followed by
the garda are the same as those in section 37A which I have already
outlined. As in the new section 37A, failure to co-operate with a
request to hand over the alcohol or to give a name and address is an
offence with a maximum fine of €500. The maximum fine in the case of a
failure by an individual to comply with a direction to desist from his
or her activities or to move on, is €1,000.
Powers of entry for the purposes of operating the new sections 37A and
8A are set out in the new sections 37B and 8B, respectively. In this
instance, we are talking about entry into, for example, unoccupied
houses and flats, derelict sites or building sites. As Deputies will
be aware, our Constitution makes very clear provision on the
inviolability of a domestic residence. The powers being granted here
take full account of that provision but also ensure that gardaí are
given a clear basis on which they can use the powers granted by the
new sections 37A and 8A.
A garda must have reasonable grounds for believing that section 37A or
8A applies before exercising the entry powers under section 37B or 8B
as the case may be. Of course, it may not become clear until after
entry has been completed whether it is section 37A - a person is under
18 years - or section 8A which applies. The entry provisions are
framed to deal with that situation by requiring that the garda be
satisfied before entry that one or other or perhaps both sections are
applicable.There are a few additional points I want to make about the
new Garda powers to seize alcohol. Firstly, these new powers are in
addition to existing powers to deal with public order offences.
Indeed, the real benefit of the new powers is that they will permit
early intervention by gardaí and will, therefore, help to prevent
offences taking place.
Where the parties co-operate with gardaí, the matter ends there. The
question of arrests and prosecutions arises only where there is
resistance or a failure to co-operate. These new powers will,
therefore, not only assist gardaí in responding to and preventing
unacceptable behaviour but they have the potential to enable gardaí to
achieve that end, while reducing the time-consuming activities
connected with prosecutions and court appearances. From the offender's
perspective, he or she will avoid a criminal record where he or she
co-operates with gardaí in the exercise of these new powers.
Deputies will note that the procedural requirements to be followed,
including the warnings to be given by the garda, are set out in a
detailed manner in the two sections. I attach considerable importance
to this aspect of the new provisions. The explicit description of the
procedural steps to be followed is intended to ensure that even where
the opportunity for judicial supervision does not arise, for example,
when the parties concerned co-operate with gardaí and, as a result, no
court proceedings are involved, we can nevertheless be reasonably
satisfied that due process has been observed.
9 o'clock
Sections 11 and 17 introduce revised definitions of "bottle or
container" for the purposes of the 1988 and 1994 Acts. This will
ensure a consistent approach. In respect of public order matters, I am
also pleased to inform the House that in line with another of the
advisory group's recommendations, I am making arrangements to
introduce fixed charge penalties for offences under sections 4 and 5
of the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994. Provision was already
made for these charges in section 184 of the Criminal Justice Act
2006, but certain technical amendments are required with regard to the
administration of the fixed charges, for example, arrangements for
payment of the charges. My aim is to ensure the new charges will be
introduced to coincide with the commencement of the relevant
provisions of this Bill.
It is important that we recognise the significance of the introduction
of fixed charges in this area. Although they have applied for some
time now in the case of certain road offences, this is the first time
we have applied them to public order offences. The arrangement has
potential benefits for all concerned. The offender avoids a criminal
record and pays a charge that is significant but, in all probability,
lower than the fine that might have been imposed by the court.
An offender who disputes the charge retains his or her right to go to
court and to have the matter settled there. Needless to say, an
offender who fails to pay the charge will be prosecuted for the
original offence. The system also has benefits for the Garda and the
courts. It provides gardaí with an additional option, which may be
more appropriate in many cases, while remaining a deterrent. It will
reduce administration time and time spent in court. I fully support
this new departure and think it has potential for further development.
However, it will be necessary to evaluate these first, albeit limited,
steps before considering any expansion.
There has been a significant increase in the number of supermarkets,
convenience stores and petrol stations with off-licences in recent
years. At the same time, there has been a remarkable increase in the
scale and frequency of alcohol promotions and price discounts. The
result has been a marked increase in alcohol availability and
visibility within these mixed trading premises.
There are basically three types of off-licence, which correspond with
the three main categories of alcohol products, namely, spirits, beer
and wine. Specialist off-licences, supermarkets and many convenience
stores hold all three licences and can, therefore, sell all types of
alcohol. Other retail outlets may have a licence to sell wine only.
To obtain the necessary off-licences to sell spirits and beer, an
applicant must apply to the District Court for a certificate which, if
granted, is then presented to the Revenue Commissioners. Revenue then
issues the licences, subject to tax compliance requirements. The
District Court will not issue the required certificate unless the
applicant satisfies the court that an existing licence holder, usually
the holder of a public house licence, is willing to extinguish an
existing licence when the new licences are issued. Grant of the
certificate is also dependent on the court not accepting an objection
on any of the grounds on which an objection can be lodged. Neither a
District Court certificate nor extinguishment of an existing licence
is required to obtain a wine only off-licence. These are issued
directly to applicants by the Revenue Commissioners.
In 2001, the Revenue Commissioners issued off-licences permitting the
sale of spirits and beer to more than 790 outlets. This had increased
by about 70% to more than 1,300 outlets by 2007. The number of wine
only off-licences almost trebled over the same period. More than 3,600
wine only off-licences were issued in 2007. This is the background
against which the advisory group formulated its recommendations to
restrict both the supply and visibility of alcohol in mixed trading
premises.
Section 4 of the Bill proposes to restrict off-sales of alcohol to the
period between 10.30 a.m. and 10.00 p.m. and 12.30 p.m. to 10.00 p.m.
on Sundays and St. Patrick's Day. This new restriction will apply to
premises with on-licences as well as off-licences. It also means the
existing provision, which permits the sale of alcohol from 7.30 a.m.
in mixed trading premises such as supermarkets, convenience stores and
petrol stations, will be repealed. This proposal will reduce the time
during which mixed trading premises may sell alcohol by 29 hours per
week. Existing prohibitions on the sale of alcohol on Christmas Day
and Good Friday will remain in place.
Section 5 provides that an applicant for a wine off-licence will in
future require a District Court certificate. As already mentioned,
this requirement already applies to applications for spirits and beer
off-licences. Section 6 provides for the possibility of lodging an
objection to the grant of a District Court certificate for an
off-licence on any of the following grounds: the character of the
applicant; the appropriateness of the premises; the needs of persons
residing in the area; and the adequacy of the number of licensed
outlets already in the area.
Currently, objections to certificates for spirits and beer
off-licences are generally limited to the character of the applicant
and the suitability of the premises. The new provisions will permit
gardaí or local residents to object, on the grounds that an
off-licence is not required to meet the needs of residents or because
there are already enough off-licences in the neighbourhood. Subsection
(2) provides that the District Court may require the installation or
operation during licensing hours of a closed circuit television system
on granting a certificate. This is intended to deter people from
loitering in the vicinity of off-licences and to combat secondary
purchasing, namely, where under-age persons try to persuade or
pressurise adults to purchase alcohol for them.
The result of the implementation of sections 5 and 6 is that the same
grounds for objections will in future apply to on-licences and
off-licences. It will remove differences of treatment between premises
seeking on-licences and those seeking off-licences, and between
off-licences selling all alcohol products and those selling wine only.
Section 7 is a technical proposal which gives jurisdiction for
granting the certificate for a wine retailer's off-licence to the
District Court and provides for the giving of advance notice of
applications for such licences.
Section 8 provides for the separation of alcohol products from other
products in premises which are engaging in mixed trading, for example,
supermarkets, convenience stores and petrol stations. It provides that
alcohol shall be displayed and sold in a separate area of the premises
to which access is controlled. Where a structural separation is not
feasible, for example because of the size of the premises, alcohol
products must be displayed and sold from a part of the premises where
public access is prohibited, for example from behind a counter.
Subsection (3) provides that structural separation will not apply to
specialist off-licences or to duty free shops. As implementation of
the structural separation provisions may require structural
alterations within premises, the Bill provides for delayed
implementation of section 8.
The advisory group's recommendation for structural separation of
alcohol products was motivated by its concerns that the display and
sale of alcohol side by side with ordinary foods served to create the
impression that alcohol is an ordinary retail product. It also exposes
children to alcohol products at an early age. Restricting sale and
display to a separate area will emphasise the difference between
products which require a licence for sale and those which do not
require any such authorisation.
On Friday last, I held detailed discussions with the trade bodies
representing supermarkets and convenience stores on the structural
separation proposals in section 8, and their impact. During these
discussions, the bodies concerned offered to implement an agreed
voluntary code of practice as an alternative to implementation of
section 8. The code would cover issues such as the location and
display of alcohol within premises, signage, warning signs, in-store
advertising, as well as staff training standards. Implementation would
be overseen and enforced through an independent audit and verification
mechanism. I am currently awaiting details of the proposed code.
If agreement can be reached on its contents and the necessary level of
support for its strict implementation across the mixed trading sector,
if I am satisfied the proposed code would achieve in effect what we
have set out to achieve through structural separation and if the code
is subject to independent verification on an annual basis, I would be
disposed to deferring implementation of section 8 for the present. If
independent verification of compliance were to show the code is being
implemented effectively across the country, and achieving in effect
what we have set out to achieve through structural separation, it may
not be necessary to commence section 8. If not, I will not hesitate to
do so.
Following last week's discussions, I intend to table an amendment on
Committee Stage to exempt wine from the requirement that in cases
where structural separation is not possible, the sale of all alcohol
products shall be confined to a part of the premises from which the
public are excluded. This will permit customers to continue to browse
while purchasing wine.
Section 9 amends existing statutory provisions under which the
District Court may grant "special exemption orders" which permit
extended opening hours for special occasions. The conditions under
which such orders can be made are being amended to require the
operation of a CCTV system at venues where the public are admitted,
for example, nightclubs and late bars. The public order ground on
which objection may be made by the Garda to the granting of such
orders is also strengthened. Moreover, the District Court shall not
grant such orders in future unless satisfied that the premises
concerned comply with fire safety standards under the Building Control
Act 1990. I understand that some courts already insist on compliance
with such standards, but I now propose that it will apply in all
cases. In future, all applicants for special exemption orders will
need to present certification by an appropriately qualified person
that the premises comply with the relevant fire safety standards to
the District Court.
Section 10 deals with the sale of alcohol in premises with theatre
licences. Under existing rules, such licenses may be obtained from the
Revenue Commissioners without a court certificate and the normal
licensing hours do not apply. In theatres, the sale of alcohol is
permitted both before and after performances. The result is that
premises with theatre licences often remain open until 3.30 a.m. or
4.00 a.m., long after other premises operating on the basis of special
exemption orders have closed their doors. This has created a strong
incentive for nightclubs and other late-night venues to obtain theatre
licences and thereby circumvent the special exemption order
provisions. For these reasons, there has been a very significant
increase in their number in recent times. In 2006 and again in 2007, a
total of 76 theatre licences were issued by the Revenue Commissioners.
So far this year, 80 have been issued in Dublin alone, with 20 further
applications pending. This is a serious problem that must be
addressed.
The reforms contained in section 10 will mean that the sale of alcohol
before and after performances will only be permitted during normal
licensing hours, or during extended opening hours under a special
exemption order granted by the District Court. This will enable the
Garda Síochána to object to any such orders on public order grounds
and will also ensure compliance with fire safety standards. It is
intended that there will be equality of treatment for all premises
operating as late night venues.
The advisory group did not confine its examination of extended opening
hours to late night opening. It recommended repeal of the provision
which allows supermarkets and convenience stores to sell alcohol from
7.30 a.m. This recommendation is given effect in section 4.
The group also proposed repeal of the general exemption order
provisions contained in the Intoxicating Liquor Act 1927 Act which
permit the early opening of licensed premises located in the vicinity
of fairs and markets. This exemption from normal licensing hours was
mainly intended to cater for people travelling long distances to fairs
and markets and to ensure that they could receive food and refreshment
when they reached their destination. Also, sailors who had not been on
shore for some time might obtain refreshment if their boat docked in
the early hours of the morning.
The advisory group considered that changes in our society rendered
this type of arrangement redundant and recommended its abolition on
the ground that it is now used mainly by late night revellers on their
way home and by problem drinkers.
Deputy Pat Rabbitte: The Minister lives a very sheltered life.
Deputy Dermot Ahern: Following separate discussions last week with
the Garda Commissioner and the vintner organisations, I am disposed to
allowing premises already availing of such orders to continue to apply
for them in the normal way. However, no general exemption order shall
be granted in respect of premises unless a general exemption order was
in force in respect of the premises on 30 May 2008, that is, the date
of publication of the Bill.
Deputy Charles Flanagan: The fair days are coming back.
Deputy Dermot Ahern: It is a reprieve. I also intend to table an
amendment on Committee Stage which will mean that off-sales of alcohol
will not in future be permitted during periods covered by general
exemption orders, from 7.30 a.m. to 10.30 a.m. in those early houses.
Section 13 provides for the introduction of test purchasing of alcohol
products in the new section 37C to be inserted in the Intoxicating
Liquor Act 1988. It provides that the Garda Síochána will be permitted
to send a person aged 15, 16 or 17 into licensed premises for the
purpose of seeking to purchase or being permitted to consume alcohol.
Parental or guardian consent in writing will be required in all cases
and all reasonable steps must be taken to protect the young person
concerned. Test purchasing will apply to all categories of licensed
premises and is intended to assist the Garda Síochána in its efforts
to combat under age consumption of alcohol. I am hopeful that this
measure will also lead to greater use of the Garda age card and to a
stronger culture of compliance with provisions regarding under age
persons.0 -
Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,614 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 15359
I had an alcohol bill last month that came to €300. true story.0 -
Further correspondence with govermental ministers, more contact details, and email templates can be found in my comments made here:
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/880380 -
I'm in Korea atm and they don't have closing hours.
They generally have a set time themselves but I'm pretty sure theres no law.
The bars here generally stay open as long as there are people in them and there are so many bars and choices.
Its a much better system.0 -
I pity you all if this comes in. Meanwhile I'll be out in a trashy club in Berlin, not a bouncer in sight and everyone having a great time, leaving at 7 in the morning, empty streets, with not one bit of trouble or hassle from anyone
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You couldn't pick a better place Cianos.0
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This post has been deleted.0
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In case you want to mail politicians directly and not have to read all the debates, here's the relevent information from the 25th and 26th along with who said it, their party, and their email address:
http://www.redbrick.dcu.ie/~phier/talks.doc
(included a bit of their discussion on advertising, i.e. what they really should be controling, not opening hours - might help to use their words to encourage them towards your way of thinking)
If you want ideas for more detail in your email, this might help:
http://www.redbrick.dcu.ie/~phier/licensing.doc
Also, debates on the 1st and 2nd have been added to the timeline:
http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/bills28/bills/2008/3208/document1.htm
Similar summaries to follow.0 -
How will having shorter hours eleviate drinking disorder? People will just go out earlier. Its absolutely stupid.0
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I pity you all if this comes in. Meanwhile I'll be out in a trashy club in Berlin, not a bouncer in sight and everyone having a great time, leaving at 7 in the morning, empty streets, with not one bit of trouble or hassle from anyone
It because the culture is superior to ours. People here just want to get hammered the whole time.0 -
grumpytrousers wrote: »
Here's what needs to happen. Complete deregulation. Let the market work. My prediction? Carnage. Utter carnage for around 2-3 months and then you know what happens? People begin to realise "jesus, last friday i went drinking for 18 hours solid, and er, did a savage amount saturday as well...where's all my money gone" The great unwashed will start to cop on that their wallets aren't bottomless.
+10 -
Nothing the government can do will ever stop people from binge drinking.
Irish people in particular feel the urge to drink more when there's some old fart telling them not to!
PEOPLE DON'T LIKE BEING TOLD WHAT TO DO! simple as.If people feel their freedom is being curtailed, subconciously they will rebel.
I'm a responsible drinker. I drink a naggin with red bull and then no more alcohol for the rest of the night (i might have 1 drink later on if someone else buys it).
But after seeing one of those "drink responsibly" ads i suddenly had this urge to get wasted and puke all over the front of a shop (watching the guy in the ad clean it up was hilarious!)
anyway, this is what happens when you give a pack of professional arse-lickers (that's all politicians are) the power to make decisions for us instead of treating us like responsible adults.
People will say "nanny state" because that's what it is.The sooner it ends the better.0 -
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Night clubs should be able to stay open all night but they have to stop serving alcohol at 1am
problem solved.0 -
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Sounds like a good solution to me.
Nightclubs would complain because they actually make a lot of money by getting people pissed drunk right up till closing.
And people who can't have a good time in a nightclub without being drunk will complain because they can't have a good time in a night club without being drunk
everyone else, including myself, would enjoy much more the atmosphere if everyone wasn't out of their heads on beer and alchopops.0 -
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btw, is there any laws about alcohol-free venues having to close at certain times? I can see a new niche opening up.(post night-club venues)
like if leisure plex and burger king can be 24 hours then why not?
Maybe even a new breed of 24 hour BYOB venue's with free hard-plastic pint-glasses, an off-licence next door that accepts returns provided you have a receipt (they'll be glued to the bottle for convinience) and lockers for you to keep your booze in.
(yes i know the off licence will be closed during the night, hence the returns policy and the lockers)
Oh and non-alcohlic drinks will be on sale as mixers.And there'll be free water. And there'll be cheap gatorade made up on the spot for people who are dancing.0
This discussion has been closed.
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