Alcohol Bill 2008 Re: Opening Hours (merged)

humanji

Well the nightclubs can just over charge for drinks and the drunks won't notice there's no alcohol in them, and those who can't have a good time without being drunk can go f*ck themselves.

Another solution is to have random closing times that change each night. An alarm will suddenly sound and the people will have 5 minutes to leave before the riot police charge in.

Prof.Badass

humanji wrote: »

Another solution is to have random closing times that change each night. An alarm will suddenly sound and the people will have 5 minutes to leave before the riot police charge in.

lol

imagine, everyone knocking back drinks like mad, knowing that closing time could be only 6 minutes away.It would be absolute mayhem...it's like the worst possible solution to any problem imagineable....sounds like something FF would do!

Phier

Right, here's all the discussion relating to sequential closing times, nightclub licenses, and some mention of restricting marketing and sales practises children are exposed to. (the right way to tackle the problem).

http://www.redbrick.dcu.ie/~phier/talks.doc

Skip down to the end to see Dermot Ahern's response.

Basically it seems he has ignored all the appeals to bring in sequential closing times saying people could just hop from one place to another. Nothing was mentioned of detaching opening hours from alcohol sales hours as mentioned in my mail to him and others - http://www.redbrick.dcu.ie/~phier/licensing.doc

He doesn't seem to be interested in stopping this by better enforcement at the point of sale, stopping barmen serving drunk people, or entry into a pub/club. He's also selected some stats that attempt to rubbish the UKs approach i highlighted. I've yet to look into these apparent facts to see if they are just that, but i intend to do so and mail him and the others listed in the above doc before Tue the 8th.

Another disgrace in this whole fiasco is that this information is no longer available on:
http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/bills28/bills/2008/3208/document1.htm
There was no debate on the the proposals of the bill before bringing it to the house, and now the public are being denied information on it just 4 days before it is set in stone.

hermit

vinylmesh wrote: »

Nothing the government can do will ever stop people from binge drinking.

Irish people in particular feel the urge to drink more when there's some old fart telling them not to!

PEOPLE DON'T LIKE BEING TOLD WHAT TO DO! simple as.If people feel their freedom is being curtailed, subconciously they will rebel.

I'm a responsible drinker. I drink a naggin with red bull and then no more alcohol for the rest of the night (i might have 1 drink later on if someone else buys it).

But after seeing one of those "drink responsibly" ads i suddenly had this urge to get wasted and puke all over the front of a shop (watching the guy in the ad clean it up was hilarious!)

anyway, this is what happens when you give a pack of professional arse-lickers (that's all politicians are) the power to make decisions for us instead of treating us like responsible adults.

People will say "nanny state" because that's what it is.The sooner it ends the better.

Clown of the highest order...

People like you is the reason why we have social behaviour problems etc...

Larianne

Okay so they want all the pubs and clubs closed at the same time. Doesn't really bother me as regards to getting kicked out of place as I normally on the water at that stage.

What does worry me as that everyone will be out on the streets, all trying to get into the fastfood joints or onto the nitelink home after lobbing about 5 drinks into them within 20 minutes as they know the bar/club is closing. And this is when all the trouble will start and I just don't know how the Gardai will be able to handle it.

Also, someone made the comment of why would you want to be out that late anyway? Not everyone works 9-5 jobs, there's people who work shifts, people who work in the cinemas, in the bars, who all should have the right to have a few drinks and a bit of a boogie if they want.

There will always be binge drinkers in Ireland. And curbing the opening hours of bars/clubs will not help the anti social behaviour on the streets.

Marcus.Aurelius

Better to stop the binge culture, but that takes courage, something Fianna Fáil lost when they shot Collins.

Zing!!

turgon

humanji wrote: »

Another solution is to have random closing times that change each night. An alarm will suddenly sound and the people will have 5 minutes to leave before the riot police charge in.

I now what the result would be. Once anyone stepped in the club they would make sure to get ass-faced as quickly as possible to avoid having to leave sober.

lostexpectation

i see there is new dublin byelaws, but they seem to mostly about the gardai being able to take drink off ya in public.

what are the laws about music, in pubs and clubs, that's prretty important issue, thew law should encourage as much live music as possible, the more good music the less drinking.

Phier

List of Proposed Committee Stage Amendments:
http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/bills/2008/3208/b3208d-dcn.pdf

lostexpectation

so a nightlcub permit section

written by charles flanagan fg td?

and the chances of it getting through?

there big ol discussion going on new nightl with vb and they mentioned young people marching for nightclubs opening later, vb thinks young should march against equality (but thats utterly vague)

SECTION 17
52. In page 14, before section 17, but in Part 2, to insert the following new
section:
17.—(1) (a) On the occasion of an application to the Court, an applicant may
request the Court to certify that a premises to which a public house
license is attached is a nightclub for the purposes of this Act and to issue
a permit to that effect,
(b) an application made under paragraph (a) above shall be made not less
than 14 days after the service of a notice by or on behalf of the applicant
stating the applicant’s intention to apply for such a permit.
(2) (a) The Court shall not designate a nightclub permit to any premises under
subsection (1) above unless it complies with the following additional
conditions—
(i) the premises shall only operate for business between the hours of
10p.m. and 4a.m.,
(ii) an admission price shall be charged at a designated cash desk
subsequent to passing a security desk and prior to entry into the
premises and which operates a numbered ticketing system which must
be available for inspection by the Fire Services and/or the Gardaí
Síochána,
(iii) the premises shall provide entertainment through music and dancing
and shall have an area reserved solely for dancing which must consist
not less than 20 per cent of the gross public area of the nightclub,
(iv) there shall be public liability insurance cover of a figure to be specified
by the Minister in regulations attached to the premises,
(v) the premises shall have at least two security persons on front door
security duty with an additional one security person inside the
premises for every 100 patrons present,
(b) without prejudice to paragraph (a)(i) above, the court may at its discretion
attach to the issue of a nightclub permit the condition that the premises
close at a time earlier that 4a.m.,
(c) in making any such determination under paragraph (b) above the Court
shall take into consideration the desirability of sequential closing in the
immediate district of the premises in respect of which an application
under subsection (1) is being made,
(d) the Court shall give a statement of its reasons for any determination made
under paragraph (b) above.
10
“Nightclub Permits.
[ SECTION 17 ]
(3) When granting a nightclub permit the Court, having regard to the opinion of a
suitably qualified person, shall specify the maximum occupancy level for the
premises to which the permit relates.
(4) (a) The holder of a nightclub permit shall cause such permit to be displayed
in a conspicuous place on the premises to which it relates.
(b) Failure to comply with paragraph (a) shall be an offence and the holder of
the nightclub permit who is guilty of an offence under this section shall
be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding:
(i) €500 for a first offence;
(ii) €1,500 for a second or subsequent offence.
(5) A holder of a nightclub permit who permits the maximum occupancy level
specified under subsection (3) above to be exceeded on any occasion shall be guilty
of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding:
(a) €3,000 for a first offence;
(b) €10,000 for a second or subsequent offence.
(6) The officer in charge of the Garda Síochána may object to the application and
may appear and give evidence on the hearing of an application under this section.
(7) Every nightclub permit shall, unless sooner revoked under this section, remain
in force until the next annual licensing district court for the licensing area.
(8) A Judge of the District Court may, on the application of the officer in charge
of the Garda Síochána for the licensing area, at any time revoke a nightclub permit
if he is satisfied that the holder of such permit has contravened any of the conditions
attached to the granting of the nightclub permit.
(9) Whenever the Justice of the District Court shall refuse an application for a
renewal of any permit under this section the applicant may lawfully appeal against
such refusal to the Circuit Court and shall prosecute such appeal with due diligence,
and the permit shall remain in effect until the first opportunity on which such an
appeal could be heard by the Circuit Court and, if that Court shall so direct, for such
further time (if any) as shall elapse before the final determination of such appeal.”.
—Charles Flanagan.

cournioni

Gooo 24 hours!! Yeah! Wooo!

kmart6

24 hours! Imagine what college lectures would be like then:D

BraziliaNZ

turgon wrote: »

It because the culture is superior to ours. People here just want to get hammered the whole time.

So what if we want to get hammered? I never get the point in all this... why are they trying to stop people getting hammered, if that's what they want to do? Is it because of street-violence? There's nothing you can do about that really, a lot of Irish people just like fighting for some reason and don't like eye-contact from strangers.
Swedes like to get hammered too, pretty bad, but as far as I know there hasn't been a crime there since the late '70s. We're just an unruly mob, simple as, restricting our drinking wont really do much will it?

Cianos

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

So what if we want to get hammered? I never get the point in all this... why are they trying to stop people getting hammered, if that's what they want to do? Is it because of street-violence? There's nothing you can do about that really, a lot of Irish people just like fighting for some reason and don't like eye-contact from strangers.
Swedes like to get hammered too, pretty bad, but as far as I know there hasn't been a crime there since the late '70s. We're just an unruly mob, simple as, restricting our drinking wont really do much will it?

Maybe we'd be more mature if we were allowed to take responsibility for ourselves when drinking, instead of being hearded in and out of nightclubs like cattle.

Crumble Froo

assuming this is to do with crime... then staggered closing hours make more sense than letting everyone out at the same time.

also, this is complete bull****, and ill be writing a letter to my local TD.

Reku

Crumble Froo wrote: »

assuming this is to do with crime... then staggered closing hours make more sense than letting everyone out at the same time.

also, this is complete bull****, and ill be writing a letter to my local TD.

Didn't think they had TDs over there....:p

Crumble Froo

hey, im still an irish citizen, and im technically still only here on a holiday :P

and if that's passed in three weeks, it is seriously gonna affect my trip home in aug/sept!

nice1franko

Can I change my vote? I voted no before even seeing 'I would like to see 24 hour opening'

nice1franko

Crumble Froo wrote: »

assuming this is to do with crime... then staggered closing hours make more sense than letting everyone out at the same time.

also, this is complete bull****, and ill be writing a letter to my local TD.

I reckon staggered closing hours could be worse in some cases. People'll just finish up in one place and stagger to the next and then they might be in the height of it if the bouncers won't let them in... it'd be worse than it is now!

Crumble Froo

what a lot of pubs n clubs here do (they can be open 24hrs here) is just not allow people in after a certain time. everyone knows it, and it's kinda just accepted. gives a wind down.

at least, as that survey mentioned re-allow the 30mins of music after the bar's closed. i dont think i ever minded having to do the last half hour of dancing/socialising minus the alcohol, at that point you're just dancing off the drunkeness, and hell, if you want a drink, there's plenty of free water. not to mention that some people will head once it stops anyway, so that's some staggering.

but the whole point in the staggering is so that the police dont have to deal with a couple of hundred drunken people released onto the streets at the same time.

if pubs are closing earlier, then quite simply, i would, and i'd imagine many of my mates will start drinking earlier (usually, a certain level of inebriation has to be reached before dancing can begin, and half the point in going to a nightclub is the dancing), and probably end up more polluted by the time we're kicked out at 2.30am.

(it'll be like constantly playing 'catch-up'.)

Phier

lostexpectation wrote: »

so a nightlcub permit section

written by charles flanagan fg td?

and the chances of it getting through?

there big ol discussion going on new nightl with vb and they mentioned young people marching for nightclubs opening later, vb thinks young should march against equality (but thats utterly vague)

SECTION 17
52. In page 14, before section 17, but in Part 2, to insert the following new
section:
17.—(1) (a) On the occasion of an application to the Court, an applicant may
request the Court to certify that a premises to which a public house
license is attached is a nightclub for the purposes of this Act and to issue
a permit to that effect,
(b) an application made under paragraph (a) above shall be made not less
than 14 days after the service of a notice by or on behalf of the applicant
stating the applicant’s intention to apply for such a permit.
(2) (a) The Court shall not designate a nightclub permit to any premises under
subsection (1) above unless it complies with the following additional
conditions—
(i) the premises shall only operate for business between the hours of
10p.m. and 4a.m.,
(ii) an admission price shall be charged at a designated cash desk
subsequent to passing a security desk and prior to entry into the
premises and which operates a numbered ticketing system which must
be available for inspection by the Fire Services and/or the Gardaí
Síochána,
(iii) the premises shall provide entertainment through music and dancing
and shall have an area reserved solely for dancing which must consist
not less than 20 per cent of the gross public area of the nightclub,
(iv) there shall be public liability insurance cover of a figure to be specified
by the Minister in regulations attached to the premises,
(v) the premises shall have at least two security persons on front door
security duty with an additional one security person inside the
premises for every 100 patrons present,
(b) without prejudice to paragraph (a)(i) above, the court may at its discretion
attach to the issue of a nightclub permit the condition that the premises
close at a time earlier that 4a.m.,
(c) in making any such determination under paragraph (b) above the Court
shall take into consideration the desirability of sequential closing in the
immediate district of the premises in respect of which an application
under subsection (1) is being made,
(d) the Court shall give a statement of its reasons for any determination made
under paragraph (b) above.
10
“Nightclub Permits.
[ SECTION 17 ]
(3) When granting a nightclub permit the Court, having regard to the opinion of a
suitably qualified person, shall specify the maximum occupancy level for the
premises to which the permit relates.
(4) (a) The holder of a nightclub permit shall cause such permit to be displayed
in a conspicuous place on the premises to which it relates.
(b) Failure to comply with paragraph (a) shall be an offence and the holder of
the nightclub permit who is guilty of an offence under this section shall
be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding:
(i) €500 for a first offence;
(ii) €1,500 for a second or subsequent offence.
(5) A holder of a nightclub permit who permits the maximum occupancy level
specified under subsection (3) above to be exceeded on any occasion shall be guilty
of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding:
(a) €3,000 for a first offence;
(b) €10,000 for a second or subsequent offence.
(6) The officer in charge of the Garda Síochána may object to the application and
may appear and give evidence on the hearing of an application under this section.
(7) Every nightclub permit shall, unless sooner revoked under this section, remain
in force until the next annual licensing district court for the licensing area.
(8) A Judge of the District Court may, on the application of the officer in charge
of the Garda Síochána for the licensing area, at any time revoke a nightclub permit
if he is satisfied that the holder of such permit has contravened any of the conditions
attached to the granting of the nightclub permit.
(9) Whenever the Justice of the District Court shall refuse an application for a
renewal of any permit under this section the applicant may lawfully appeal against
such refusal to the Circuit Court and shall prosecute such appeal with due diligence,
and the permit shall remain in effect until the first opportunity on which such an
appeal could be heard by the Circuit Court and, if that Court shall so direct, for such
further time (if any) as shall elapse before the final determination of such appeal.”.
—Charles Flanagan.

Indeed, and:

15. In page 5, before section 5, to insert the following new section:

5.—Where the District Court for a particular district is exercising a discretion
concerning the grant of a licence permitting the consumption of intoxicating liquor on particular premises, the Court shall exercise its discretion in such a way as to avoid the closing of a significant number of premises in a particular locality at the same time on the same day or days.".

-- Pat Rabbitte

The system works

cournioni

turgon wrote: »

I now what the result would be. Once anyone stepped in the club they would make sure to get ass-faced as quickly as possible to avoid having to leave sober.

Sweden is a country with a huge problem with alcoholism. It also is one of the strictest countries in Europe on drinking leading many to drink at home which in my opinion is far more dangerous.

Wagon

Cianos wrote: »

Maybe we'd be more mature if we were allowed to take responsibility for ourselves when drinking, instead of being hearded in and out of nightclubs like cattle.

+1
...everyone waltzing out at once to start bickering in chippers
...fighting over taxis
...walking all over the road because there's no room to the path
...disappointed that their night out is over because the government says they've had enough fun for their own good, after a week working hard to pay overpriced rent and keep themselves and their families afloat.

If you want peopel to be more responsible with booze, then give them the oppurtunity to do so and don't just let it last for a week either. There's always going to be the drunken gob****es out there but that's where the police step in (and they can't really get out there properly to stop all these fights because they have so sit inside doing paperwork all night if they do arrest someone). If you really want siciety to change it's attitudes, you have to give us the means and freedom to do so. Apart from the smoking ban (I'm not biased, I'm a smoker myself), **** all of the fancy little laws and ideas this government has invented has worked.

Phier

Apparently the INIA are meeting Charles Flanagan now. Dunno what, if any changes to his proposal they're asking for. FF are meeting to discuss it at 5pm, and it's been rushed forward to go to a vote before the Dáil at 11.30 tonight, and will be in front of the Seanad tomorrow and Thursday. FF backbenchers won't vote against it because most of them are pub owners, and i'm told their whip system effectively means they can't vote against their party's Bill anyway. GUTN seems to think the nightclub permit won't go through and the best we can get is for sundays to be treated like any other day, and that the Bill might be delayed.

Email the Seanad your thoughts.

email them your thoughts on it and plead them see sense.

INDEPENDENTS:
ivana.bacik@oireachtas.ie
ronan.mullen@oireachtas.ie
info@senatordavidnorris.ie
miriam@senatordavidnorris.ie
aoife@joeotoole.net
himself@feargalquinn.ie
shane.ross@oireachtas.ie

GREENS:
dboyle@oireachtas.ie
deirdre.deburca@oireachtas.ie

FG
Paul.Bradford@finegael.ie
Leas-Chathaoirleach@oireachtas.ie
jerry.buttimer@finegael.ie
paudie.coffey@finegael.ie
Paul.Coghlan@finegael.ie
Maurice.Cummins@finegael.ie
paschal.donohoe@finegael.ie
frances.fitzgerald@finegael.ie
fidelma.healy.eames@oireachtas.ie
nicky.mcfadden@finegael.ie
joe.oreilly@finegael.ie
johnpaul.phelan@oireachtas.ie
eugene.regan@finegael.ie
liam.twomey@finegael.ie

BraziliaNZ

can someone explain what the new laws trying to be passed are?

zuroph

christ this is going to make town messy.
not cool, not cool at all. who came up with this idea?
apparently its to get people home early so they're fresh for work monday morning, clearly TDs have no understanding that sunday is the weekend workers night out.

Phier

Some more...

PDs:
fomalley@oireachtas.ie
ciaran.cannon@oireachtas.ie

Labour:
info@dominichannigan.com
alan.kelly@oireachtas.ie
michael.mccarthy@oireachtas.ie
phil.prendergast@oir.ie
bren@brendan-ryan.ie
alex.white@oireachtas.ie

and FF (worth a try):
Mark.Daly@oireachtas.ie
Tony.Kett@oireachtas.ie
Peter.Callanan@oireachtas.ie
John.Carty@oireachtas.ie
Pearse.Doherty@oireachtas.ie
Alan.Kelly@oireachtas.ie
Pat.Moylan@oireachtas.ie
Francis.OBrien@oireachtas.ie
Jim.Walsh@oireachtas.ie
Cecilia.Keaveney@oireachtas.ie
Labhrás.oMurchú@oireachtas.ie
Ann.Ormonde@oireachtas.ie
Larry.Butler@oireachtas.ie
Marc.MacSharry@oireachtas.ie
Denis.ODonovan@oireachtas.ie
Kieran.Phelan@oireachtas.ie
Mary.White@oireachtas.ie
Donie.Cassidy@oireachtas.ie
Geraldine.Feeney@oireachtas.ie
Terry.Leyden@oireachtas.ie
Ned.OSullivan@oireachtas.ie

constitutionus

well theyve done it.

whos up for guessing what the increase in public order offences is going to be on the back of this?

i reckon it could be as high as 20%.

every drunk idiot spoiling for a fight pouring onto the street at the same time with half the gardai tucked up in bed.

brian lenihan is truely the biggest ****ing muppet ive EVER seen.

do NONE of these idiots see the connection between our ridiculously short opening hours and anti social behaviour? the only other country with our problem is britain and guess what its also the only one with dumbass closing hours.

i see a few clubs have said theyre not going to open on sunday now as 1pm closing is non viable for them (WTF is that all about anyway? weve been a 7 day a week economy since the 90s ! EVERYONES "weekend" can now fall on ANY day. i for one havent worked a monday for 8 yrs ! )

its the shift workers i feel sorry for. someone aske earlier in the thread why anyone would be drinking after 2.30 any way well its tough to do a deal in tokyo on a dublin 9 to 5 ! financial services run 24hrs a day now but god forbid someone in the dail thinks they might want a pint after work.

im telling ya i cant WAIT to see this blow up in the justice ministers face. cutting drinking hours just doesnt work. if they'd any balls theyd deregulate the drinking hours for a year to sort all this nonsense out. i bet dimes to dollars we'd have the same public order problems as the continent within 7 months.

BraziliaNZ

so what do these new laws mean? Does it just affect sundays? Sorry I can't find any news on this on the net

Crumble Froo

:eek:

i genuinely can't believe this has gone through. **** this country sucks.