The NS10,000 Project

PaulBrewer

We all know Yamaha NS10s are everywhere, from the smallest to the biggest studios.

I know from my own experience why i.e. they're easy to make Mix decisions on.... well easier, than many speakers in they very critical midrange.

I just bought a pair on Ebay.

So that got me thinking - Can NS10s be made BETTER? Can I build NS10,000s???

After a bit of research I've come up with the following plan -

Speakers are Electro Mechanical devices, so they wear out. I'm going to get some new ones and fit them.

The amp is critical in a speakers performance, so I'm going to mount a separate amp on each speaker, the ones PMC use on their speakers. (Powered NS10s? Ja?)

Speaker crossovers contain components that deteriorate over time - rebuilding the crossover with superior components, but the same spec, is the plan there.

Lastly, there are phase issues with the speaker insofar as the tweeter delivers it's output slightly ahead of the woofer. I plan to time align them.

Are there any Electronic Engineers who might help me with the Crossover upgrade here?

Can we build a better Mouse Trap?

Of course this may make things worse??:o

ICN

Its official!! Paul is FCUKing MAD!!!!


:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

PaulBrewer

Possibly!:cool: but Happy!!

Sunn

PaulBrewer wrote: »

We all know Yamaha NS10s are everywhere, from the smallest to the biggest studios.

I know from my own experience why i.e. they're easy to make Mix decisions on.... well easier, than many speakers in they very critical midrange.

I just bought a pair on Ebay.

So that got me thinking - Can NS10s be made BETTER? Can I build NS10,000s???

After a bit of research I've come up with the following plan -

Speakers are Electro Mechanical devices, so they wear out. I'm going to get some new ones and fit them.

The amp is critical in a speakers performance, so I'm going to mount a separate amp on each speaker, the ones PMC use on their speakers. (Powered NS10s? Ja?)

Speaker crossovers contain components that deteriorate over time - rebuilding the crossover with superior components, but the same spec, is the plan there.

Lastly, there are phase issues with the speaker insofar as the tweeter delivers it's output slightly ahead of the woofer. I plan to time align them.

Are there any Electronic Engineers who might help me with the Crossover upgrade here?

Can we build a better Mouse Trap?

Of course this may make things worse??:o

its interesting alright but why not just build superior speakers from the off?

You will ultimately change the characteristic of the speaker by adding new components anyway and a difference of 50 cents on components can make a huge difference in terms of sound quality.

Building a crossover isn't that easy but essential its just a number of capacitors and resistors in different configurations to block certain parts of the signal.

Mate of mine built two massive speakers for his thesis and they were very impressive.

I reckon just go from the off at making new speakers all together oh there are lots of diy guides on google about building speakers.

PaulBrewer

Sunn wrote: »

its interesting alright but why not just build superior speakers from the off?

You will ultimately change the characteristic of the speaker by adding new components anyway and a difference of 50 cents on components can make a huge difference in terms of sound quality.

Building a crossover isn't that easy but essential its just a number of capacitors and resistors in different configurations to block certain parts of the signal.

Mate of mine built two massive speakers for his thesis and they were very impressive.

I reckon just go from the off at making new speakers all together oh there are lots of diy guides on google about building speakers.

Nah! I want to get the NS10s to perform as the originals did New out of the Box driven by superior amplification as a first goal.

Then replace the crossover components with same spec higher quality ones, with perhaps a bit of experimentation if I can get the correct info.

Then experiment with the Time Align to see how that effects things.

This is, after all, the First Choice Mixing speaker for quite a few generations now.

At worst I'll have a pair that work exactly as they were intended - at best, they might be better again!!

Sunn

you'll never get them to the way they were as the components used are probably gone or they are of a different make so the characteristics will change.

I always hated those speakers.

PaulBrewer

Sunn wrote: »

probably gone

Probably Gone?

Not really the basis of an argument my friend ...

sei046

I for one am salivating at this idea. I remember you talking about this on the oxford trip (which reminds I am just back from spain and a return trip of abstract mario music). If this works out nice i might be interested in throwin my ns10s for an upgrade.

PaulBrewer

I do think it's interesting ok.

Anything Mechanical wears out, so a 10 or 20 year old speaker cannot perform as well as a new one.

There are still original New Old Stock around.

Similarly Capacitors dry out and don't capacitate as they should.

Also I'm painting them white as white is the best colour for Woofers... innit?

(Capacitate is a New Term, recently created in the Midlands)


Interestingly the pair I just bought sound much better than the pair we have!

Sunn

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Probably Gone?

Not really the basis of an argument my friend ...

:rolleyes:

Neurojazz

Build a theremin into front of the speakers to detect the distance of engineers head to the tweeters - then do the math for time delay

PaulBrewer

Neurojazz wrote: »

Build a theremin into front of the speakers to detect the distance of engineers head to the tweeters - then do the math for time delay

I'm into it!

brow_601

Neurojazz wrote: »

Build a theremin into front of the speakers to detect the distance of engineers head to the tweeters - then do the math for time delay

slightly off topic but are theremins easy to bulid?from scratch like

Soundman

brow_601 wrote: »

slightly off topic but are theremins easy to bulid?from scratch like

Shouldn't be too hard as long as you have some technical skills.

http://www.thereminworld.com/schematics.asp

Neurojazz

Just how far do you want to go?

You could also have a button that makes the speaker emit white noise for 20 secs at 85db and the speakers automatically adjust the frequency response unique to room they are in (with the engineer)

Beercan/cup holder on side - cup older could be warmed via the increasing heat levels inside the speaker from all this circuitry inside.

PaulBrewer

brow_601 wrote: »

slightly off topic but are theremins easy to bulid?from scratch like

I seem to remember seeing some Theramin kits ...

frobisher

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I seem to remember seeing some Theramin kits ...

There are kits all over the webnet and evil-bay. I think they're easier to make well than to play well. I remember seeing Cornelius play support to The Flaming Lips a good few years ago and he got some amazing sounds out of one.

ICN

Check these out..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19RJEnNUg1I&feature=related




When you've seen the 1st one, this'll make sense.. Its nothing short of demented.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pi7GvRE-ivU&feature=related

:pac:

PaulBrewer

ICN wrote: »

Check these out..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19RJEnNUg1I&feature=related




When you've seen the 1st one, this'll make sense.. Its nothing short of demented.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pi7GvRE-ivU&feature=related

:pac:

Outta Control!!

PaulBrewer

As we're Yamaha Dealers the first place I went to looking for NS10s spares was them.

Surprisingly they have loads!

Anybody need replacements? I'm going to place an order tomorrow.

sei046

Thats pretty cool. We are talking real ns10s right? None of this HS50 malarky!?

unclebill98

good to hear there still plenty of parts for them, I've replacement speakers for my set just incase they got hard to find.

And Paul, your nuts...

PaulBrewer

sei046 wrote: »

Thats pretty cool. We are talking real ns10s right? None of this HS50 malarky!?

Genuine Yamaha parts with guarantee - no bootlegs - I believe there are some bogey ones on Ebay ....

PaulBrewer

unclebill98 wrote: »

And Paul, your nuts...

Possibly !

Soundman

unclebill98 wrote: »

And Paul, your nuts...

What about his nuts? They not holding his speakers in properly?

PaulBrewer

unclebill98 wrote: »

good to hear there still plenty of parts for them, I've replacement speakers for my set just incase they got hard to find.

And Paul, your nuts...

Perhaps you meant 'You're Nuts"? ... or maybe not ...

sei046

i suspect not.

PaulBrewer

Just got the phase matched in the NS10 speakers .... or so I think.

Joe reckons there is a lot more bass out of them now. With the fact we've increased the volume in a sealed box design that may be the case, but I'll have to check that with my speaker design guru....

More to come ... when there is more.

sei046

If it works you can have mine, do it for free for the pleasure for using my valued name in your NS10,000 advertisement. I dont throw my name around willy nilly Paul.

PaulBrewer

sei046 wrote: »

If it works you can have mine, do it for free for the pleasure for using my valued name in your NS10,000 advertisement. I dont throw my name around willy nilly Paul.

:eek:

sei046

I know that face. Thats the done deal face

PaulBrewer

Yea I'll do them.... just don't tell anyone you know me .....:o

sei046

Cheers! Of course! Sure I would never tell anyone I know you!

PaulBrewer

sei046 wrote: »

Cheers! Of course! Sure I would never tell anyone I know you!

Spose!;)

PaulBrewer

Yesterday I replaced the 4 drivers in my pair of NS 10s. You may remember from before these are a 'New' second set we have that already sound better than our original pair.

They're currently on soak getting thrashed by a reggae cd to run in the speakers.

Already they sound SO much better....

We may be onto something!

Speaking of speakers -

Has anyone come across these yet?

http://www.acousticenergypro.com/professional-speaker-range/AE22-active-pro-loudspeaker.asp

They contacted us today regarding taking on their products.
Any opinions?

iquinn

Nigel Godrich uses the AE1's, well an older version with less bright tweeters, for the, what would this sound like on my hifi sort of category.
They're generally regarded as having a great soundstage as their main strength, not necessarily accuracy.

PaulBrewer

iquinn wrote: »

They're generally regarded as having a great soundstage

What does 'soundstage' mean?

iquinn

sorry, like stereo imaging, the placement of instruments, voices......depth etc.

tweeky

I used AE1's for a few years in the eighties, we used to call them the "F'I's" ....The False Impressions. They were great Hi-Fi speakers and were helpful to impress bands that hadn't experienced NS 10's before as they had great "balls" for such a small box, the only problem was that the air/wind shooting out of the port would give you sore eyes if you sat in front of them.

PaulBrewer

tweeky wrote: »

I used AE1's for a few years in the eighties, we used to call them the "F'I's" ....The False Impressions. They were great Hi-Fi speakers and were helpful to impress bands that hadn't experienced NS 10's before as they had great "balls" for such a small box, the only problem was that the air/wind shooting out of the port would give you sore eyes if you sat in front of them.

I remember them. You had them in Ropewalk with da 'Happens?

These new ones are talking up a good game.

Similar to the NS10s they're a "closed box speaker with an exceptional time domain performance (better than 40dB down within 5ms)"

They've had a couple of good reviews including from Resolution.

http://www.acousticenergypro.com/professional-speaker-range/AE22-Waterfall.asp

I'm looking forward to hearing them - that's really the only test.

I remember getting shot in the shoulder by a bit of debris from the port of a pair of ole Westlakes once too!

PaulBrewer

Does anyone have any opinions on Capacitors for Audio, specifically for the Ns10,000s? I need to get replacements.

We've got to the stage where we've replaced the drivers and installed the woofers phase shifters.

We had a test run and unsurprisingly they sound like new speakers!

Any ideas?

iquinn

Mundorf mcap supreme's are definitely worth looking at.
I'm not sure they'll come in the value you need, but it's likely they do, they're used a lot in crossover design.
There's a few different types, depending on your budget.

Sunn

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Does anyone have any opinions on Capacitors for Audio, specifically for the Ns10,000s? I need to get replacements.

We've got to the stage where we've replaced the drivers and installed the woofers phase shifters.

We had a test run and unsurprisingly they sound like new speakers!

Any ideas?

Not really sure what you want?

iquinn

http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/m_cap.html

madisound in the US do them also.

PaulBrewer

Thank You

PaulBrewer

EEEEK - Euro 370 for capacitors!

iquinn

PaulBrewer wrote: »

EEEEK - Euro 370 for capacitors!

ouch!

Bennic xxp's might be a more affordable solution so, still good quality, should be below about €5.00 each i think.

PaulBrewer

iquinn wrote: »

ouch!

Bennic xxp's might be a more affordable solution so, still good quality, should be below about €5.00 each i think.

I'll have a look, I think I might just bite the bullet - the goal is to make them as good as possible.

PaulBrewer

iquinn wrote: »

ouch!

Bennic xxp's might be a more affordable solution so, still good quality, should be below about €5.00 each i think.

iquinn, is this an area of expertise of yours? I'm also rewiring the speakers with http://www.vovox.com/neu/content_e/index.html cable too.

iquinn

PaulBrewer wrote: »

iquinn, is this an area of expertise of yours? I'm also rewiring the speakers with http://www.vovox.com/neu/content_e/index.html cable too.

not exactly, i dabble. Once everything else seems right, you do start to look at the smaller details, capacitors and what not!
I was going to build a set of speakers a while ago, an MTM design (mid woofer-tweeter-mid woofer) using scan speak drivers. I got cold feet though, parts alone were €1000, i thought if I mess it up, that's an expensive mess.

good resource here if you haven't seen it before:
http://www.diyaudio.com/

vovox you say, I've heard good things about thier mic cables, i use mogami throughout and i'm happy with them, but i might try those out sometime.

stephen

PaulBrewer

iquinn wrote: »

I got cold feet though, parts alone were €1000, i thought if I mess it up, that's an expensive mess.

good resource here if you haven't seen it before:
http://www.diyaudio.com/

vovox you say, I've heard good things about thier mic cables, i use mogami throughout and i'm happy with them, but i might try those out sometime.

stephen

Aye, a grand gone west would be a sore dose ok.

I reckon at very worst I'll have an as new pair of NS 10s and at best I'll have a better pair of NS 10s!

Also I'm lucky enough to have access to trade prices and some expertise in the area, certainly the acoustics side, too.

Thanks for that link, I've seen it before.

Have a look at -

http://www.vovox.com/neu/content_e/04_06_01.html

We've 3 studios done entirely in Vovox here i.e. all multis as well as mic / guitar leads.

I've not done an A/B with mogami but am constantly convincing guys re VoVox by loaning them leads.

Last week Jazzer Hugh Buckley was in for a spin.

Give me a buzz if you'd like to try some.

Cheers for your help Stephen.