The NS10,000 Project

PaulBrewer

Yes,

Twas those very speakers Newell suggested was everything a speaker shouldn't be...

sei046

Thats because of the amps in them, You just too need to bypass their amps and use this,

http://www.musicstore.com/en_EN/GBP/Fame-A-200-II-Reference-Amplifier/art-REC0005810-000?CatalogVideo=

tweeky

A second version of this is usually €250 and much, much better.

Yamaha P2500

http://www.thomann.de/ie/yamaha_p2500s_endstufe.htm

........Still you can't beat this

Bryston 4BSST

http://www.hhb.co.uk/hhb/uk/products/detail.asp?ID=301

PaulBrewer

sei046 wrote: »

Thats because of the amps in them, You just too need to bypass their amps and use this,

http://www.musicstore.com/en_EN/GBP/Fame-A-200-II-Reference-Amplifier/art-REC0005810-000?CatalogVideo=

That's as well!

The port is the problem (as often is in ported designs, you get bass extension at the expense of accuracy)

PaulBrewer

[QUOTE=tweeky;
Bryston 4BSST

http://www.hhb.co.uk/hhb/uk/products/detail.asp?ID=301[/QUOTE]

I'm trying to buy an old one that used to be in the Townhouse, it's the bucko!

PaulBrewer

How am I supposed to put this lot onto the old crossover plate on the left, then?




The inductor is bigger than the tweeter!




I've used Epoxy Resin to glue the individual component to the cabinet, notice the old crossover has been stripped.

PaulBrewer

Got one done!

I just did one to compare to the other one and actually hear the difference.

There's a big difference, the wee 'lump' we knew we had in the 2/3 hundred range appears to have gone.

However the top end is much more strident.

On consultation with Newell referring to cutting down the cabinets volume

' It will push up the resonant frequency, and hence the bass rool-off will begin higher.'

However as I thought the Phase shift rings will balance that out a bit by increasing the cab volume.


I seem to remember reading before the capacitors need to be run in, so that might explain things.

The other possibility is the amp.

The 3rd possibility is I bought a pup!

PaulBrewer

Actually the 4th possibility was also suggested by Newell, I'll stick the second set of inductors to the back of the speakers instead of the bottom in the hope they're not being affected by speaker magnetism.

I'm running them in with the Rutles, I mean Oasis' New Long Playing Record which does sound great ....... in an Abbey Road kinda way!!

iquinn

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Got one done!

I just did one to compare to the other one and actually hear the difference.

There's a big difference, the wee 'lump' we knew we had in the 2/3 hundred range appears to have gone.

However the top end is much more strident.

On consultation with Newell referring to cutting down the cabinets volume

' It will push up the resonant frequency, and hence the bass rool-off will begin higher.'

However as I thought the Phase shift rings will balance that out a bit by increasing the cab volume.


I seem to remember reading before the capacitors need to be run in, so that might explain things.

The other possibility is the amp.

The 3rd possibility is I bought a pup!

maybe put them close to each other face to face with one out of phase and play some tracks loud'ish on repeat for a few days to break all the components in.

PaulBrewer

iquinn wrote: »

maybe put them close to each other face to face with one out of phase and play some tracks loud'ish on repeat for a few days to break all the components in.

Yes,
I'm awaiting Duelunds response but it looks like caps can take up to 400 hours to burn in!

http://www.tempoelectric.com/caps.htm


So I'll let you know after Chrimbo!

PaulBrewer

To even up the playing field a bit I need to be using an good amp too, or at least one I'm sure is good.

I'll try a pair of the Flying Moles I can nick out of the PMCs first.

I think it's reasonable to assume that the crossover is a tighter spec than the original +/-5% components (+/- 2% for Duelund) and that not allowing for the age of the old components.

So I'll reserve judgement til then!

PaulBrewer

Duelund say

"Our customers report 14 days of running in. The highs seem to be a point that changes."

iquinn

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Duelund say

"Our customers report 14 days of running in. The highs seem to be a point that changes."

is the tweeter new also?

PaulBrewer

New, as in installed a couple of months I guess and well melted in now.

iquinn

PaulBrewer wrote: »

New as in installed a couple of months I guess and well melted in now

right o

tweeky

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Actually the 4th possibility was also suggested by Newell, I'll stick the second set of inductors to the back of the speakers instead of the bottom in the hope they're not being affected by speaker magnetism.

I'm running them in with the Rutles, I mean Oasis' New Long Playing Record which does sound great ....... in an Abbey Road kinda way!!

Try a bit of Grace Jones album "Nightclubbing" as with Sly & Robbies Production and Alex Sadkins engineering there's plenty of top and bottom to loosen them up.

PaulBrewer

tweeky wrote: »

Try a bit of Grace Jones album "Nightclubbing" as sly and Robbies Production and Alex Sadkins engineering there's plenty of top and bottom to loosen them up.

And a damn good album as I recall!!

PaulBrewer

Got the amps!

Went for Flying Mole Digital Amps ....

160 real Watts a piece and about the same size as a Video Box ...

http://www.flyingmole.co.jp/new_en/index.html


Am rewiring the whole heap with VoVox cable, whenever I bother my whole.

sei046

My god paul get them up and going and lets listen!

PaulBrewer

Up until now the biggest single change has been changing the actual drivers - however now the amp change has been the biggest single improvement...

PaulBrewer

At long last ! The MoFos are finally completed.

New drivers, rebuilt crossover with Duelund Components and wired with Vovox cable and powered by Flying Mole amps.

They 'sound' great - I'll see during the week what the results are work wise.

Aridstarling

Can't wait to hear what you make of them!

PaulBrewer

Aridstarling wrote: »

Can't wait to hear what you make of them!

Working on a new track this week I hope ...

madtheory

Have you tried measuring the frequency and transient response Paul?

PaulBrewer

Not yet.

Philip Newell has asked Keith Holland to do some measurements.

The idea was to rebuild a pair to 'as new' spec.

I've often heard people disliking NS 10s but invariably they're a 20 year pair that are just phucked.

The original crossover had electrolytic caps which probably dry out so God knows what most old pairs crossovers are doing.

Also the importance of amps is often overlooked.
Any old amp is often used.

I was going to go for a Bryston ... but then had a word with myself !

The Flying Moles are what PMC use in their DB1 and TB2 monitors so they're a good quality replacement.

I'll run them in for a few weeks and see how they settle.

PaulBrewer

Here's a pic of one of the speakers with the Digital Flying Mole amp Velcroed to the back !

madtheory

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Not yet.

Philip Newell has asked Keith Holland to do some measurements.

Cool! You can't do better

Re caps- there's electrolytics in my weird monitors, but they measure fine and are 35 years old. Data sheet specs them for that length of time.

PaulBrewer

madtheory wrote: »

Cool! You can't do better

Re caps- there's electrolytics in my weird monitors, but they measure fine and are 35 years old. Data sheet specs them for that length of time.

Yes, I didn't know for sure what the state was - just the likelihood that the caps MAY have dried out , and the theoretical possibility that 'better' caps will sound better.

teamdresch

So what was the final cost of the build?

PaulBrewer

Something over 3k !

ICN

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Something over 3k !

WHAT ****ING RECESSION?! EH???!?!!!??!!!

PaulBrewer

ICN wrote: »

WHAT ****ING RECESSION?! EH???!?!!!??!!!

Well I did start the feckers a year ago !!

ICN

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Well I did start the feckers a year ago !!

"Regrets.. I've had a few.. But then again.. too few to mention.. Ah-ha-ha.." - Sid Vicious.


I know..was thinking that alright. I made the 2nd post.. FCUK.

How time flies. Hope you have some good sessions with them Paul.

Whats the plan then - Are you planning to actually use them day to day, or are they going to be in a glass cabinet with a layer of Turtle Wax on them? :pac:

Are they going into the Nutshed?

PaulBrewer

Yes - they were used on a drum recording session today ...

ICN

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Yes - they were used on a drum recording session today ...

Cool. Try not to Blow them!


Actually.. Out of interest, do you make music yourself Paul?

Do you have a set-up at home or anything?

PaulBrewer

ICN wrote: »

Cool. Try not to Blow them!


Actually.. Out of interest, do you make music yourself Paul?

Do you have a set-up at home or anything?

Just the odd bit of producing with the Nutheads

http://www.myspace.com/nutheadsproductions

ICN

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Just the odd bit of producing with the Nutheads

http://www.myspace.com/nutheadsproductions

Its enough!

shayleon

nice one Paul.
Will such speakers be affordable? (sorry, but I'm skint at the mo, so can't stop thinking about this aspect).
cheers.

PaulBrewer

They could be ! I spent WAY too much on the crossover.

I guess using the original coils and replacing the Electrolytic caps would have saved me a grand.

However, new quality amps don't come cheap.

I suppose if you had a donor pair you'd bring in an 'as new' groovy pair powered with a second hand Quad or something much more affordably (sensibly?)

PaulBrewer

Had the beasts in action today on a prepping/mixing session down in Peter's Middlewalk Studio.

Them is proper banging boxes - I might try another pair with a more 'affordable' cross-over ...

Rockshamrover

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Had the beasts in action today on a prepping/mixing session down in Peter's Middlewalk Studio.

Them is proper banging boxes - I might try another pair with a more 'affordable' cross-over ...

You should stick up a video of them in action.

BumbleB

I think Ns10's are horrible, but if you get a mix sounding good on a ns 10 it will sound good nearly anywhere .

madtheory

BumbleB wrote: »

I think Ns10's are horrible, but if you get a mix sounding good on a ns 10 it will sound good nearly anywhere .

There's a bit more to it than that actually:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep08/articles/yamahans10.htm

PaulBrewer

BumbleB wrote: »

I think Ns10's are horrible, but if you get a mix sounding good on a ns 10 it will sound good nearly anywhere .

Have you heard a pair that are in good condition driven by a good amp in a good room Bumble ?

BumbleB

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Have you heard a pair that are in good condition driven by a good amp in a good room Bumble ?

I have Paul , first heard them when I was working with Dow brain and Brad Young in Boston . I dont remember what the amp was ,but I dont think it was mickey mouse because , among his clients are Aerosmith and Boston .One of my friends, I think is getting rid of his (cones keep blowing) ,dunno maybe if I listen to them again I might like them .I used to hate pink floyd and now I really dig them, maybe that will happen with the ns 10 .

BTW madtheory thanks for the link very good article .

PaulBrewer

BumbleB wrote: »

I have Paul , first heard them when I was working with Dow brain and Brad Young in Boston . I dont remember what the amp was ,but I dont think it was mickey mouse because , among his clients are Aerosmith and Boston .One of my friends, I think is getting rid of his (cones keep blowing) ,dunno maybe if I listen to them again I might like them .I used to hate pink floyd and now I really dig them, maybe that will happen with the ns 10 .

BTW madtheory thanks for the link very good article .

I'll take another pair if your mate is dumping them !

petermaher

Been using Mr Brewer's(Boll*x) pair of ns 10,000's for the last few weeks. Never had much experience of ns10s before but can't see how I'd live without them now. Main monitors are PMC IB2sa's and while I've never heard a better monitor, just having the ns10,000's there for leveling or to rest my ears from the Pmc's has been brilliant. They're not the kind of thing I'd like to listen to my favorite stuff on but in the studio/work environment I'd be lost without them now. It's just the things they make you do. Mixing has been so much easier with them. Incidentally, I have a pair of HS80m's that I had lying around and threw them up for pig iron and they were complete crap compared to the ns10,000's, in fact I gave them away to a friend that was on the session today.

PaulBrewer

petermaher wrote: »

Been using Mr Brewer's(Boll*x) pair of ns 10,000's for the last few weeks. Never had much experience of ns10s before but can't see how I'd live without them now. Main monitors are PMC IB2sa's and while I've never heard a better monitor, just having the ns10,000's there for leveling or to rest my ears from the Pmc's has been brilliant. They're not the kind of thing I'd like to listen to my favorite stuff on but in the studio/work environment I'd be lost without them now. It's just the things they make you do. Mixing has been so much easier with them. Incidentally, I have a pair of HS80m's that I had lying around and threw them up for pig iron and they were complete crap compared to the ns10,000's, in fact I gave them away to a friend that was on the session today.

They're yours for 3.5k ...

petermaher

PaulBrewer wrote: »

They're yours for 3.5k ...

Ya.......I wouldn't give 3.5k for them but I would give 2k. What sort a amps is them on the back?

PaulBrewer

petermaher wrote: »

Ya.......I wouldn't give 3.5k for them but I would give 2k. What sort a amps is them on the back?

2k ya prick , da feckin amps cost that ?