Why no German heavy bomber?

SpitfireIV

Well, as the title says, why didnt Germany invest in, or produce to a large scale any four engined heavy bombers like the allies did?

They had there Heinkel HE111, JU88, Donier DO17, etc, but these were all relatively 'light' two engined bombers on par with the British Wellington the American B-25 etc, no? And were about even before the war started.

I'm not that knowledgable on the air war, but I dont believe the Germans ever had a heavy bomber, even a four engined bomber? There was the Focke Wolfe Condor, but apart from that why not develop bombers on par with the B-26, B-17 or Lancaster etc?

I know they pretty much led the race with the development of the jet fighter, rockets (V1 and V2) and had more than adequate fighters in the BF109 and FW190, any reason why they didnt develop bigger bombers?

FiSe

I believe, it was because somebody allmighty had opinion, that medium bombers produced in a large numbers is better option, than smaller number of heavy bombers...
But in general, medium and light bombers were "the thing" in the German Blitzkrieg strategy. It all started to change around Battle of Britain, but not too dramatically as this was only a short episode in the war so far.
Anyway, development and production of heavy bombers continued till the end of the WWII. Heinkel He 177 Greif, for example.

marcsignal

FiSe wrote: »

Heinkel He 177 Greif, for example.

Yep, and the He 277 with 4 engines. An aptly named aircraft, both were notorious for spontaneous mid-air engine fires.

The closest the Germans came to a real 4 engined bomber was the Messerschmitt Me 264, as part of the 'Amerika Bomber' programme.
It first flew in Dec 1943, but the only airworthy prototypes were destroyed in an allied air raid near the end of the war. It would have been a monster of a bomber.

http://images.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/lrg0238.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/me264.html&h=432&w=539&sz=35&hl=en&start=12&um=1&tbnid=2jelzPvQKqKviM:&tbnh=106&tbnw=132&prev=/images%3Fq%3DMesserschmitt%2BMe%2B264%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

http://www.luft46.com/prototyp/me264.html


There was only one truly strategic multi engined bomber built before the end of the War: the Junkers Ju 390, which actually had six engines, made its maiden flight on October 20 1943. Two prototypes were built and, Allied Intelligence learnt from prisoner interrogations, that a Ju 390 had been delivered in January 1944 to FAGr 5 (Fernaufklarungsgruppe 5), based at Mont-de-Marsan near Bordeaux, and that it had completed a 32-hour reconnaissance flight to within 12 miles (19 km) of the US coast, north of New York City

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_390

http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=409

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/ju390.html

http://www.suite101.com/view_image.cfm/387965

http://www.aviastar.org/air/germany/ju-390.php

FiSe

He 177 had 4 engines as well, 2 back to back in each wing, so not as obvious as rare 277

marcsignal

FiSe wrote: »

He 177 had 4 engines as well, 2 back to back in each wing, so not as obvious as rare 277

Yeah thats right, but here's a pic of the version I was talking about here

http://images.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=http://www.aviastar.org/pictures/germany/he-277.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.aviastar.org/air/germany/he-277.php&h=139&w=482&sz=20&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=iVWLyiqIt6qevM:&tbnh=37&tbnw=129&prev=/images%3Fq%3DHe%2B277%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

I just meant 4 engines visually.

Sandy22

Google General Wever

dogmatix

The Germans did produce a number of 4 engined heavy bomber prototypes before the war such as the JU 89 and the Dornier Do 19. The Do 19 was potentially an excellent bomber (it looked a little like a Short Stirling and was about the same size) but the LuftWaffe were more interested in tactical and medium bombers to fit in with their "Blitzkreig" strategy.

The He 177 was a technically a four engined bomber - two engines bolted together driving a single propeller on each wing. Which is why it had serious reliability problems. Just like the Avro Manchester - and then the RAF had the brillent notion of getting rid of the two-engines bolted together concept and just stuck four merlins on to give the Lancaster. When the Germans tried the same thing with the 177 (the 277) it was found to be very good but the Luftwaffe were'nt interested.

FiSe

Condor, in the service throughout the war. America Bomber alas Me264 flying in 1942...
And from the other hand Me262 needlesly delayed for almost a year...

German army during the second war was upset to produce a perfect weapon, but due to incompetent, mainly, political decisions and power fight of the "backbenchers" development of those weapons was delayed, crippled or totally abandoned or replaced by monstrosities of very questionable miltary value.

dogmatix

The condor was a big four engined aircraft but it was never really classed as a heavy bomber or intended to be so. It was designed before the war as a passenger aircraft and then redesigned to act as a long range maritime patrol plane and to attack the Atlantic conveys.

Modern examples would be the Lockheed Electra > P3 Orion or the DeHavilland Comet > Nimrod. Civilian airliners can make good converts to maritime patrol aircraft but rarely make good "bombers".

I don't know of any incidents where the Germans used the condor in a purely bombing role but I might be wrong.

jmayo

As mentioned earlier not sure how much of an influence der fuhrer had on development strategies regarding bombers.
It is weird to think that some very important developments (e.g AFAIK the STG44) were done in spite of his interference.
Much like Soviets aviation development problems were down to Stalin hating/fearing flying, thus leading to his mistrust and jailing of some of the brilliant avaition designers.

Prefabsprouter

dogmatix wrote: »

The condor was a big four engined aircraft but it was never really classed as a heavy bomber or intended to be so. It was designed before the war as a passenger aircraft and then redesigned to act as a long range maritime patrol plane and to attack the Atlantic conveys.

Modern examples would be the Lockheed Electra > P3 Orion or the DeHavilland Comet > Nimrod. Civilian airliners can make good converts to maritime patrol aircraft but rarely make good "bombers".

I don't know of any incidents where the Germans used the condor in a purely bombing role but I might be wrong.

And an absolutely beautiful aircraft to boot. Elegant design and excellent Martime aircraft but lousy transport and bomber.

r3nu4l

Would another reason for lack of focus on the development of heavy bombers also be due to the focus on the development of rocket technology? The V2 being an example?

I don't know, I'm asking. That's not a statement masquerading as a question

BostonB

Heavy bombing wasn't in their plan in fighting the war. Lightning strikes etc. Accurate dive bombing was more important. Allied heavy bombing, tbh wasn't all that effective anyway, mainly because the accuracy was so poor. Which is why the allies shifted to area bombing. The main achievement of the allied heavy bombing campaigns was to consume the Germans resources in men and materials in trying to defend against it. Wasn't that effective in destroying the Germans ability to manufacture, in fact German manufacturing constantly increased through out the war. Pinpoint dive bombing, and probably the rockets were more effective.

Grizzly 45

Alot of the above mentioned posts are correct on the tactics point of the 3rd Reich.
The need for a heavy bomber came about during the battle of Britan and the Blitz,when it was discoverd the German bombers didnt have enough payload to carry to the UK to do enough damage per aircraft.The trouble was compounded by infighting amongst the Luftwaffe,Gorings pride and over ambitious clains to Hitler on being able to defeat the RAF,and the inability of German aircraft designers to build a simple four engined bomber that didnt eat vast amount of war material,wasnt overly technically complex {IE the 177 Greif,which required both engines to be taken out for the magnetos[spark plugs] to be changed},or German designer pride to not simply cog a workable UK or US design.
By the time the Russian front had turned on Germany a strategic bomber was as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike anyway,the pirority then was tanks and a viable jet fighter aircraft to defend against 1000 bomber raids.Plus the Germans started messing around with Jets and designed wonderful looking flying wing jet fighters and bombers.but again it was too late to matter.Vital war material and manpower to build and fly what would have amounted to nusiance raids on the East seaboard of the USA would have achived very little.

murf

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Alot of the above mentioned posts are correct on the tactics point of the 3rd Reich.
The need for a heavy bomber came about during the battle of Britan and the Blitz,when it was discoverd the German bombers didnt have enough payload to carry to the UK to do enough damage per aircraft.The trouble was compounded by infighting amongst the Luftwaffe,Gorings pride and over ambitious clains to Hitler on being able to defeat the RAF,and the inability of German aircraft designers to build a simple four engined bomber that didnt eat vast amount of war material,wasnt overly technically complex {IE the 177 Greif,which required both engines to be taken out for the magnetos[spark plugs] to be changed},or German designer pride to not simply cog a workable UK or US design.

The Heinkel 177 was also delayed by the requirement that it be capable of dive-bombing as well as level bombing. This posed quite a problem with structural strength etc. The double engine idea was used as an attempt to reduce the drag caused by having four engines in seperate pods. The germans were lacking in high-power engines at the time.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

By the time the Russian front had turned on Germany a strategic bomber was as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike anyway,the pirority then was tanks and a viable jet fighter aircraft to defend against 1000 bomber raids.Plus the Germans started messing around with Jets and designed wonderful looking flying wing jet fighters and bombers.but again it was too late to matter.Vital war material and manpower to build and fly what would have amounted to nusiance raids on the East seaboard of the USA would have achived very little.

Heh. Very true. Also, by the time suitable numbers of 4-engined machines were available for combat operations, the fuel shortage effectively curtailed all heavy bomber operations. The teething troubles with the new bomber meant that it didn't reach frontline units until mid 1944, initially equipping Kampf Geschwader 1 (Bomber Wing 1) with 120 aircraft. The real problem here is that a single medium-range attack by that geschwader would need about 480 tons of aviation fuel. This was equal to an average days total output from the entire german fuel industry. So, there was just no fuel to support even a small strategic bomber force at this stage.

Have a read of "The last year of the Luftwaffe" by Alfred Price for more.

Victor

marcsignal wrote: »

There was only one truly strategic multi engined bomber built before the end of the War: the Junkers Ju 390, which actually had six engines, made its maiden flight on October 20 1943. Two prototypes were built and, Allied Intelligence learnt from prisoner interrogations, that a Ju 390 had been delivered in January 1944 to FAGr 5 (Fernaufklarungsgruppe 5), based at Mont-de-Marsan near Bordeaux, and that it had completed a 32-hour reconnaissance flight to within 12 miles (19 km) of the US coast, north of New York City

That would have been interesting. Any bombing in North America would have led to a huge reallocation of resources.


From the first link

Karl Kössler and Günter Ott, ... examined the claimed flight, and thoroughly debunked the flight to Long Island. Most importantly, it was nowhere near France at the time when the flight was supposed to have taken place.

Of course it was nowhere near France, it was near New York. :pac:

Grizzly 45

Other theory is that the NYC flight was a recon for a nuke bomber flight.
There is quite alot of evidence around that the 3rd Reich was along the road to a nuke device and alot closer to it than is actually known.Intrestingly one document found by the Allies shows a proposed bomb damage map of Manhattan,that very closely resembles the Hiroshoma bomb.Makes you think.