Is this the E.U we're supposed to be proud to be part of?

ShooterSF

So the E.U rules say that every country has a right to block a treaty and Ireland exercised that right. Have the other nations acted like adults and respected our decision? No they've varied their tactics from trying to bully us, ignoring our decision and carrying on (which is AGAINST the agreement) and even lodging complaints about our nominated Commissioner, whom as the Yes side pointed out is not "Our" Commissioner so why he's being attacked seems a bit ridiculous.

Now this leads me to another point about our veto. What if Ireland tried to use a veto in decision making? Would they come under the same intense pressure from nations who refuse to accept when they don't get their way?

For such seemingly educated and intelligent men and women the rest of the E.U are really embarrassing themselves right now by not accepting our right to block a treaty. Where's the fair and respected E.U now that we are supposed to be so proud of?

Another referendum would be a sickening day for democracy. So to is demanding we leave the E.U because we exercised a right to block something or is unanimity just for show?

PopeBuckfastXVI

ShooterSF wrote: »

Another referendum would be a sickening day for democracy.

Thanks a lot ShooterSF... you just blew up my irony meter! :pac:

SkepticOne

ShooterSF wrote: »

So the E.U rules say that every country has a right to block a treaty and Ireland exercised that right. Have the other nations acted like adults and respected our decision? No they've varied their tactics from trying to bully us, ignoring our decision and carrying on (which is AGAINST the agreement) and even lodging complaints about our nominated Commissioner, whom as the Yes side pointed out is not "Our" Commissioner so why he's being attacked seems a bit ridiculous.

They have the right to carry on with the ratification process if they wish though it may run out of steam when they realise that Ireland is standing firm.

ShooterSF

SkepticOne wrote: »

They have the right to carry on with the ratification process if they wish though it may run out of steam when they realise that Ireland is standing firm.

True but it's just another scaremongering tactic. As I said somewhere else if this is what happens in the E.U when our country does't agree with something I severely hope no more powers are given to the E.U so they can throw a temper tantrum if we ever vetoed something and push the law through kicking and screaming. And whoever was representing us with their veto might even have their eye knocked out by a pacifier!

biko

I'll vote Yes if the French and Dutch gets another shot first

Scofflaw

ShooterSF wrote: »

True but it's just another scaremongering tactic. As I said somewhere else if this is what happens in the E.U when our country does't agree with something I severely hope no more powers are given to the E.U so they can throw a temper tantrum if we ever vetoed something and push the law through kicking and screaming. And whoever was representing us with their veto might even have their eye knocked out by a pacifier!

Hmm. Here's a really mad suggestion - why don't we wait and see what actually happens?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Lemming

Scofflaw wrote: »

Hmm. Here's a really mad suggestion - why don't we wait and see what actually happens?

Whilst you are correct Scofflaw, it has to be said that the noise coming from various EU leaders and institutions have been appalling in the last week. Beyond appalling even.

As I've said before; I am fairly pro-Europe and I voted yes. But having witnessed the level of vitriol and double-speak going on it has very much shaken my faith in the EU as an organisation and made me question where it's going and whether or not I want it representing me if this is how it behaves when it isn't getting its way.

ShooterSF

Scofflaw wrote: »

Hmm. Here's a really mad suggestion - why don't we wait and see what actually happens?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Hmm. Ever here of prevention being better than the cure? I don't want people with the characteristics the kind of which these European leaders are displaying to have more power of us!

VoidStarNull

Some pro-treaty European politicians have made negative comments about Ireland's decision. Others have made very measured comments. The attempt being made to portray "the EU" as bullying Ireland is not convincing.

Lemming

VoidStarNull wrote: »

Some pro-treaty European politicians have made negative comments about Ireland's decision. Others have made very measured comments. The attempt being made to portray "the EU" as bullying Ireland is not convincing.

The initial reactions from the likes of France & Germany were far more aggressive than subsequent commentaries released a few days later - no doubt after having it pointed out to them that they were probably doing far more damage than good to any possible solution that might be proposed.

ionix5891

ShooterSF wrote: »

Hmm. Ever here of prevention being better than the cure?

ironic ain't it? we wouldn't be in this weak position if we voted YES in first place

i let out a chuckle every time i go past a
"keep ireland strong in europe" and "itll cost you"
posters

ShooterSF

VoidStarNull wrote: »

Some pro-treaty European politicians have made negative comments about Ireland's decision. Others have made very measured comments. The attempt being made to portray "the EU" as bullying Ireland is not convincing.

Wow have you actually listened to what they've been saying? From claiming that we won't stop the E.U carrying on with the treaty to childish name calling. And even if they are pro treaty what right have they to belittle our decision? Oh and carrying on with the ratification process even though our rejection has ,if they were accepting our decision, killed off the treaty. Did every country continue ratifying the constitution when the french blocked it?

ShooterSF

ionix5891 wrote: »

ironic ain't it? we wouldn't be in this weak position if we voted YES in first place

i let out a chuckle every time i go past a
"keep ireland strong in europe" and "itll cost you"
posters

Of course. So what your saying is we should just have accepted it because outside nations wouldn't get upset and throw tantrums? Even if we didn't like the treaty? I hardly think that's a good reason to accept something. I hope you never raise kids with the same attitude.

PrivateEye

Sarkozy says: shut the **** up Ireland :pac:

I'll vote Yes if the French and Dutch gets another shot first

Spot on.
Why should we be told what to do when the French and Dutch public have done the same, and the English public have been perfectly clear in their feelings too. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the name Raymond Crotty must piss them off around Brussels.

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=x-E0EccnA2A

All these green flags and shamrocks videos from Europeans on youtube are a bit of a joke but...

I just bought 10 green shirts, 15 Enya albums, and am going to go get drunk........I love you guys !!!!!!!

:rolleyes:

VoidStarNull

ShooterSF wrote: »

Wow have you actually listened to what they've been saying? From claiming that we won't stop the E.U carrying on with the treaty to childish name calling. And even if they are pro treaty what right have they to belittle our decision? Oh and carrying on with the ratification process even though our rejection has ,if they were accepting our decision, killed off the treaty. Did every country continue ratifying the constitution when the french blocked it?

Yes ratification continued for some time after the french and dutch NOs. I think it was the british decision to not ratify that finally stopped it. The Luxembourg referendum (which voted YES) was even held after the NOs from france and holland.

And yes I have been listening to what they have been saying, many politicians have emphasized the need to find a solution together with Ireland. The "intiial reaction from Germany" that is mentioned above came from Germany's foreign minister, while the reaction from Angela Merkela was about finding a common solution. That's just one example. Measured comments have also come from Luxembourg, Belgium, and even Sarkozy.

"Europe" or the "EU" did not react with one voice to the Irish result.

Rb

ShooterSF wrote: »

Now this leads me to another point about our veto. What if Ireland tried to use a veto in decision making? Would they come under the same intense pressure from nations who refuse to accept when they don't get their way?

I've been thinking about this since the first reactions were made public the other day and it is worrying to say the least.

Luckily their behaviour is just going to fuel to the fire of the No side.

Hitman Actual

Rb wrote: »

Luckily their behaviour is just going to fuel to the fire of the No side.

True, but unluckily it's not going to help us get out of the mess we're currently in.

ShooterSF

lenny_leonard wrote: »

True, but unluckily it's not going to help us get out of the mess we're currently in.

No that would involve the rest of Europe having grown up leaders who realize our right as part of said Union to block a treaty without being attacked over it!

In/Casino/Out

France and Germany did retract their threats of isolation I'm pretty sure. They are not currently blaming Ireland. My guess is that they just got angry, over reacted and now regret it.

This is from the Irish Times:

French foreign minister Bernard Kouchner said Paris respected the Irish vote. "We are all Irish," he said. "It's a European matter and it is not an Irish matter."

Mr Martin told journalists no one had pointed the finger of blame at Ireland and there was a spirit of solidarity at the EU meeting, which was held behind closed doors in Luxembourg.

Hitman Actual

ShooterSF wrote: »

No that would involve the rest of Europe having grown up leaders who realize our right as part of said Union to block a treaty without being attacked over it!

Look, the government and associated parties ran a completely inept 'Yes' campaign. It's not all that surprising that some members are extremely p**sed off that a treaty which they were involved in negotiating for seven years has hit a serious crisis, due in no small way to that inept campaign.

And your comment of "grown up leaders" is silly in the extreme. Try to find some maturity in your posting. This is not After Hours.

ShooterSF

lenny_leonard wrote: »

And your comment of "grown up leaders" is silly in the extreme. Try to find some maturity in your posting. This is not After Hours.

Excuse me but their actions recently have been nothing but childish! And what did you find immature in my post? Anything specific please? Could you maybe concentrate on the topic rather than having pot shots at me because we differ in opinion!

Hitman Actual

ShooterSF wrote: »

Excuse me but their actions recently have been nothing but childish! And what did you find immature in my post? Anything specific please?

Like I said, the "grown up leaders" comment.

ShooterSF wrote: »

Could you maybe concentrate on the topic rather than having pot shots at me because we differ in opinion!

I did, in the first part of my post.

I've no intention of getting into a slagging match with you. No offense, but your posts over the last few hours have a touch of hysteria about them.

fly_agaric

ShooterSF wrote: »

No that would involve the rest of Europe having grown up leaders who realize our right as part of said Union to block a treaty without being attacked over it!

We may have a "right" to vote how we wish but others have a right to voice their opinion on our actions.

Let say the public said "yes"? Would we have been the toast of the Conservative party & various eurosceptics in the UK? They'd probably be cursing & dragging out those hoary old "thick paddy" jokes about now.

If other elected representatives all over the EU really want this treaty and we alone prevent it being implemented why do you expect them to be happy with us?

That seems naive, possibly even "childish".:p

ShooterSF

fly_agaric wrote: »

We may have a "right" to vote how we wish but others have a right to voice their opinion on our actions.

Let say the public said "yes"? Would we have been the toast of the Conservative party & various eurosceptics in the UK? They'd probably be cursing & dragging out those hoary old "thick paddy" jokes about now.

If other elected representatives all over the EU really want this treaty and we alone prevent it being implemented why do you expect them to be happy with us?

That seems naive, possibly even "childish".:p

No I don't expect them to be happy but to respect our right to reject the treaty and by childish all I meant was as elected representatives of their nations they should realize that instead of acting on their own emotions and opinions (like a child) they act with a bit of diplomatic and respectful poise like adults. Even if they not happy with the result they are representing their people and should act as such not ranting because we disagreed with their personal opinion.

I'm not going to bother with the other post.

is_that_so

Actions lead to consequences. Part of the consequence of votes on the EU are comments from other countries. Many of those comments came out in the first few days after the results. And here we are,"pouring seven year's work down the drain".
As Scofflaw commented elsewhere people were somewhat shocked by the "unexpected" result and reacted accordingly. It's politics, not happy families but we'll all make up.

Makes a change for it to be us on the "bold step", considering how many battles Britain and the Danes have had with the EU over the years.

Scofflaw

In/Casino/Out wrote: »

France and Germany did retract their threats of isolation I'm pretty sure. They are not currently blaming Ireland. My guess is that they just got angry, over reacted and now regret it.

This is from the Irish Times:

French foreign minister Bernard Kouchner said Paris respected the Irish vote. "We are all Irish," he said. "It's a European matter and it is not an Irish matter."

Mr Martin told journalists no one had pointed the finger of blame at Ireland and there was a spirit of solidarity at the EU meeting, which was held behind closed doors in Luxembourg.

Sure. Again, it's a bit like how your friends react when you say you won't be coming to some event you've been expected to make up the numbers on. There's always going to be a few pissed-off comments to start off with, and only an idiot takes those comments as being the measure of his friends.

cordially,
Scofflaw

ShooterSF

Scofflaw wrote: »

Sure. Again, it's a bit like how your friends react when you say you won't be coming to some event you've been expected to make up the numbers on. There's always going to be a few pissed-off comments to start off with, and only an idiot takes those comments as being the measure of his friends.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Your right. Its pretty much the same though one (unfairly maybe) expects leaders of men to approach the situation a little more diplomatically than his friends do over a session Also most people are able to put up with a little more abuse from their friends.

ionix5891

ShooterSF wrote: »

Your right. Its pretty much the same though one (unfairly maybe) expects leaders of men to approach the situation a little more diplomatically than his friends do over a session Also most people are able to put up with a little more abuse from their friends.

are you saying the other countries in Europe are our enemies out of a sudden? :eek:

come on get off it

ShooterSF

ionix5891 wrote: »

are you saying the other countries in Europe are our enemies out of a sudden? :eek:

come on get off it

Don't put words in my mouth. All i meant was they were two different situations which I have fairly or unfairly different expectations. If I let my friends down when I was expected to make up numbers I'd expect a slagging as they're people close to me. However if I decide I dont like an international treaty and the majority of my country men and women agree (well the ones that voted) I expect a minster of another country who I don't regard as friend or foe to have (being a politician) the diplomatic forsight to respect that decision and our right to make that decisions on the basis of the rules that are laid out atleast in public where he's representing his people not his emotions. As I've said since I realize it was probably an emotional outburst, my first comments on the topic were also. But these people, I would hope, are expected to show respect for other nation's decisions or accusations of bullying will be made obviously.

I don't see how this has turned into a yes no argument. I thought but sides could see their original outbursts as at least regrettable.

K-9

Finland, Austria and Luxembourg have said it will be accepted but nobody seems to want to focus on that.

ShooterSF

Seanies32 wrote: »

Finland, Austria and Luxembourg have said it will be accepted but nobody seems to want to focus on that.

Fair play to them but unfortunately as with life we focus on the negatives in the situation as every country should have said it was accepted

K-9

ShooterSF wrote: »

Fair play to them but unfortunately as with life we focus on the negatives in the situation as every country should have said it was accepted

I'll try and find a link to the Washington Post which quoted Sarkozy in a wider context later. he did say they would respect the vote but would the countries should press on and ratify.

molloyjh

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0618/breaking57.html?via=rel

The important task for the European Council (summit) is to show that the No vote regarding the Lisbon Treaty is not an excuse for inaction. We should not have paralysis

- Jose Manuel Barroso

The presidency is convinced a solution can be found together with Ireland, and that the EU is not going to face a situation similar to the one in 2005

- Janusz Lenarcic, Slovenia's secretary of state for Europe

Are these the kind of childish remarks you're talking about? Both of these guys seem to be acceptiong the Irish vote and talking about moving ahead with a solution and not letting the thing bring the EU to a grinding halt. Barroso being heckled by English MEPs with "Respect the Irish Vote" t-shirts and silly tourist hats on while saying this. Who are the children here?

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0618/breaking48.html?via=rel

Also, the call for McCreevy to resign wasn't all that harsh. What was said that was because he, an Irish member of the Commission, had said that he hadn't read it and that there was no point in reading it, only served to work against the Treaty and, in his mind at least, against the betterment of the EU. I don't see anything wrong in that. To which Barosso responded "Let's not find scapegoats…Attacking the Irish Commissioner is not a good way of fostering dialogue with Irish friends". Again, this is quite a measured, calm and responsible attitude. No childishness there at all.

marco_polo

molloyjh wrote: »

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0618/breaking57.html?via=rel

- Jose Manuel Barroso

- Janusz Lenarcic, Slovenia's secretary of state for Europe

Are these the kind of childish remarks you're talking about? Both of these guys seem to be acceptiong the Irish vote and talking about moving ahead with a solution and not letting the thing bring the EU to a grinding halt. Barroso being heckled by English MEPs with "Respect the Irish Vote" t-shirts and silly tourist hats on while saying this. Who are the children here?

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0618/breaking48.html?via=rel

Also, the call for McCreevy to resign wasn't all that harsh. What was said that was because he, an Irish member of the Commission, had said that he hadn't read it and that there was no point in reading it, only served to work against the Treaty and, in his mind at least, against the betterment of the EU. I don't see anything wrong in that. To which Barosso responded "Let's not find scapegoats…Attacking the Irish Commissioner is not a good way of fostering dialogue with Irish friends". Again, this is quite a measured, calm and responsible attitude. No childishness there at all.

All this talk of bullying and faceless bureucrats suggest to me that alot of peorple have very little idea of how the EU actually operates. It has always operated in a spirit of negotation and concensus. Indeed whether people actually like the document or not, this is exactly how the Lisbon Treaty came about too.

I defy anyone to name just one example of a piece of legislation that was bullied through the EU by one or a handful of countries.

molloyjh

marco_polo wrote: »

All this talk of bullying and faceless bureucrats suggest to me that alot of peorple have very little idea of how the EU actually operates. It has always operated in a spirit of negotation and concensus. Indeed whether people actually like the document or not, this is exactly how the Lisbon Treaty came about too.

I defy anyone to name just one example of a piece of legislation that was bullied through the EU by one or a handful of countries.

This points to the wider problem of the fact that most Irish people have no idea how the EU operates at all. And its not like the EU are keeping things a secret or anything, the info is there but we (as a people in general) aren't really @rsed informing ourselves.

marco_polo

molloyjh wrote: »

This points to the wider problem of the fact that most Irish people have no idea how the EU operates at all. And its not like the EU are keeping things a secret or anything, the info is there but we (as a people in general) aren't really @rsed informing ourselves.

My personal favourite is when I see people saying that they don't trust the Government because they were pushing a yes vote and voted know as a result. Only to then turn around and find someone else complaining that the Government didn't explain the treaty well enough.

If you don't trust them why would you trust their explainations?

K-9

molloyjh wrote: »

This points to the wider problem of the fact that most Irish people have no idea how the EU operates at all. And its not like the EU are keeping things a secret or anything, the info is there but we (as a people in general) aren't really @rsed informing ourselves.

Don't normally do this but:

+1