Irish Wrestling Scene Discussion

The Cannibal

The whole Irish scene is stagnant.

No one has the proper amount of ambition to establish a genuine, well known brand.

IwW were making strides for a while but are now in a holding pattern and seem to be directionless apart from building to the odd "super" show.

I have no idea what's going on with NWA Ireland, although they were always content to be what they were.

NLW looked promising at the start but seem to have gone the route of promotions like All Star. While probably more profitable in the short term, shows very little long term ambition.

And then CPW and their "expansion". No matter how you shake it, it's still pretty much the same roster in another GAA hall. The thought of them throwing a hardcore element into it doesn't make me want to rush and see them, although I might of gone anyway if I had heard about the shows before they happened.

If someone with money and sense came onto the scene with an actual business plan of where they want to be in 5 years and how they intend to achieve it, they'd blow all four promotions out of the water.

All of the current promotions don't even bother to update their websites anymore. There are tons of casual wrestling fans out there who still have no idea that there are even wrestling promotions in Ireland and that's because they are all just promoting into the areas that the shows are taking place and not looking at the broader picture. They are scared to venture into new territory and thus stagnate.

What Irish wrestling needs is genuine ambition, and it needs it now.

gimmick

the flananator wrote: »

That all? Sheesh.Thats very poor. For the amount of talent, travel costs etc. involved in that Cork show, even if it had gone ahead, its likely that IWW would have made an even bigger loss than CPW with their 100 with miniscule costs.

be that as it may. I do think that the IWW show was overpriced at €25, given the fact this was only their second show in the territory. For a family, or even a father and son thats €50 at least, possibly as much as €100.

However, there was the other problem of a rival promoter taking down the posters put up on a daily basis. He knows who he is and it is well noted.

Anyway, thats a story for another day or thread.

jeffk

The Cannibal wrote: »

The whole Irish scene is stagnant.

No one has the proper amount of ambition to establish a genuine, well known brand.

IwW were making strides for a while but are now in a holding pattern and seem to be directionless apart from building to the odd "super" show.

I have no idea what's going on with NWA Ireland, although they were always content to be what they were.

NLW looked promising at the start but seem to have gone the route of promotions like All Star. While probably more profitable in the short term, shows very little long term ambition.

And then CPW and their "expansion". No matter how you shake it, it's still pretty much the same roster in another GAA hall. The thought of them throwing a hardcore element into it doesn't make me want to rush and see them, although I might of gone anyway if I had heard about the shows before they happened.

If someone with money and sense came onto the scene with an actual business plan of where they want to be in 5 years and how they intend to achieve it, they'd blow all four promotions out of the water.

All of the current promotions don't even bother to update their websites anymore. There are tons of casual wrestling fans out there who still have no idea that there are even wrestling promotions in Ireland and that's because they are all just promoting into the areas that the shows are taking place and not looking at the broader picture. They are scared to venture into new territory and thus stagnate.

What Irish wrestling needs is genuine ambition, and it needs it now.

Have to agree with a lot of this.I have stopped going to Iww shows as its just that,going to not enjoying them.Its not as exciting or as fresh as it used to be.I tried Nlw once and i wont go into the reasons why i never went again.
Iww was running regularly and @ the time was full of good wrestling and i got to know the people in it and some fans so stuck with Iww.
I did say id make a Cpw but after what should have been an excellent show in the Nba for Iww i just went right of going to any Irish wrestling show for now!

the flananator

gimmick wrote: »

be that as it may. I do think that the IWW show was overpriced at €25, given the fact this was only their second show in the territory. For a family, or even a father and son thats €50 at least, possibly as much as €100.

However, there was the other problem of a rival promoter taking down the posters put up on a daily basis. He knows who he is and it is well noted.

Anyway, thats a story for another day or thread.

So you're saying the IWW show in Cork didn't draw as well as it should have because a rival promoter started taking IWW's posters down? If you are going to throw out a pretty strong accusation like that you should really back it up with proof of some sort.

And Micheal's comments seem pretty bang on. That said, I'm not sure how viable a regular Irish promotion can be profitable on any significant scale outside of the current model operated by NLW.

The Cannibal

the flananator wrote: »

So you're saying the IWW show in Cork didn't draw as well as it should have because a rival promoter started taking IWW's posters down? If you are going to throw out a pretty strong accusation like that you should really back it up with proof of some sort.

And Micheal's comments seem pretty bang on. That said, I'm not sure how viable a regular Irish promotion can be profitable on any significant scale outside of the current model operated by NLW.

Oh it is possible. I actually put together a business plan for one a while back when I was giving it some consideration and investigated every expenditure and source of income and came up with a model that is vastly different to what is presently there but would be even more profitable in the long term. The main drawback is that short term, the margins would be tight.

I won't go into the specifics of it in case I one day have the resources to enact it but there is room for growth. Especially considering that most Irish promotions are only promoting to the bottom rung and there are so many rungs above it that have been untapped.

Just like the music industry is changing, wrestling is also changing and the methods used to promote and attract fans to it must also change. They are still promoting shows the way they did in the 70's and 80's.

rovert

The Cannibal wrote: »

I won't go into the specifics of it in case I one day have the resources to enact it but there is room for growth. Especially considering that most Irish promotions are only promoting to the bottom rung and there are so many rungs above it that have been untapped.

These rungs are?

The Cannibal

CPW Northside wrote: »

All this talk about a company coming in with a strong business plan to revolutionize the Irish wrestling scene. That is exactly what we are trying to do, but it up to the fans to attend a show and give the project a chance. We are an expansion of CPW but a totally seperate company. these past few events were a test to see if our plan was practical or a bust. I think we proved it is viable to showcase young irish talent and a kickass show with guys that want it on a small budget. And give the fans an action-packed event. Every company starts somewhere even the original ECW. Thank you to the guys that checked us out and for your comments on the show. We listen to the fans and if we put up a **** show we wanna hear from the people that really matter the fans, and this ain't some bull**** to get over with the fans it the truth. We really want the feedback to get the best product in Ireland.

What you are doing is running shows in GAA halls and hoping fans spread word of mouth which just isn't effective for the Dublin market. Especially when most of the audience is 10 and their attention spans aren't that great. You need to go out there and actively pursue your audience and not wait for them to come to you. You also need to get out of the GAA halls. When I think of CPW I think of it as GAA-Wrestling.

Also, if you describe yourself as a seperate company to CPW, then why not ditch the CPW name altogether? It is not like the name gives you anything extra like the NWA. If anything the name will only drag you down as you keep having to explain that you're not CPW.

And why have you dubbed it Northside? Are you planning to promote it soley on the Northside? Isn't that a bit of a short sighted branding? If you really are planning to "revolutionise" the scene in Ireland you should go with a name that is non-region specific.

If you are going small budget and are focusing on delivering solid shows, that is all well and good but solid shows alone don't equal solid fan base. If that were the case then NWA Ireland would be running packed houses every show.

Your comments make it sound like you are trying to run before you've even got the basic crawling pieces together.

I have nothing against CPW and have attended a fair few shows and think a few of the guys are very solid workers, but they are severely lacking in ambition.

This CPW Northside is pretty much the same in my mind despite talking up more noise. You have the CPW name, use CPW guys and run GAA halls just like CPW.

Good luck with the venture in any case and hopefully you take this as constructive.

AWR_OFFICE

The Cannibal wrote: »

What you are doing is running shows in GAA halls and hoping fans spread word of mouth which just isn't effective for the Dublin market. Especially when most of the audience is 10 and their attention spans aren't that great. You need to go out there and actively pursue your audience and not wait for them to come to you. You also need to get out of the GAA halls. When I think of CPW I think of it as GAA-Wrestling.

Also, if you describe yourself as a seperate company to CPW, then why not ditch the CPW name altogether? It is not like the name gives you anything extra like the NWA. If anything the name will only drag you down as you keep having to explain that you're not CPW.

And why have you dubbed it Northside? Are you planning to promote it soley on the Northside? Isn't that a bit of a short sighted branding? If you really are planning to "revolutionise" the scene in Ireland you should go with a name that is non-region specific.

If you are going small budget and are focusing on delivering solid shows, that is all well and good but solid shows alone don't equal solid fan base. If that were the case then NWA Ireland would be running packed houses every show.

Your comments make it sound like you are trying to run before you've even got the basic crawling pieces together.

I have nothing against CPW and have attended a fair few shows and think a few of the guys are very solid workers, but they are severely lacking in ambition.

This CPW Northside is pretty much the same in my mind despite talking up more noise. You have the CPW name, use CPW guys and run GAA halls just like CPW.

Good luck with the venture in any case and hopefully you take this as constructive.

As promoters ourselves I think Dublin is a very hard place to crack. It has seen too many crappy shows which we feel have hurt it beyond repair along with the fact it is very hard and expensive to promote. I feel that anyone who has a 5 year plan to promote wrestling in not only Dublin but Ireland with the thinking that it will be successful is nuts and would be setting themselves up to drop a ton of money.
American Wrestling Rampage does have a long term plan (which I cannot go into here) but we are successful as it is run by professional promoters. People who know how to sell to a target audience
The main problem with Irish wrestling is promoters using 16 year old kids who bought a pair of spandex of ebay, weighing no less than 8 stone and trying to pass these guys off as wrestlers. Im not saying everyone coming through the curtin should be this big jacked up dude, but everyone looks the same (no gimmicks, which would help alot), Young skinny kid all wearing the same thights they got off ebay. When people come to a show they want to see the larger than life characters, the gimmicks etc Not the kid next door in spandex with horrible in-ring work .
Another problem is production, poor sound, house lighting etc, Its hard to promote shows in towns as most people have been to a NON-WWE show and have been subjected to this kind of thing.
For anyone saying Irish based promotions are poor, American Wrestling Rampage tour in march sold out 6 of the 7 shows with the average been 1000 att per show with a sell out of 1500 in the INEC, This October we will promote 9 events in Ireland as well as expand into europe with 7 shows set for France along with stops in Belgium and eastern europe.

the flananator

Thats exactly what I am saying. I was putting up posters around Cork City and County, and had a very hard time keeping them there. I had no such problem when I did a similar job in February for IWWs first show in Cork. Perhaps I am reading too much into it, but almost none of my posters were taken down first tiem round. i would also like to point out I have no affiliation whatsoever to IWW, simply doing a favour for a promotion I have supported for the last few years.

I understand your frustration but there is only one other company in this country that would have any incentive to take down posters in the Cork market, and to suggest that they did so without any proof whatsoever is extremely unfair. As Rovert has pointed out, there are other factors to consider.

As for Michael’s points; I find your ideas very interesting. I agree completely that the Irish companies lack ambition. Most of them lack basic business sense. The majority of shows I've been to or been apart of, or Irish promoters I've spoken to, have this kind of attitude whereby they are extremely reluctant to spend money on promoting their cards effectively, and then are shocked when they draw in the region of 50 people. Not using an effective advertising campaign to promote your shows is a false economy; to use the old cliché, you've got to spend money to make money.

Pro wrestling is essentially a circus; it showcases feats of athleticism and larger than life characters in a staged and somewhat tongue in cheek context. However, wrestling companies in this country do a far less effective job of promoting their events than circus' do. When the circus comes to town, everyone knows about it. Posters and fliers are everywhere, and not the flimsy and cheap kind that Irish promotions scatter here and there (with their skinny and amateurish "superstars" featured on them); the circus spend money making their posters, billboards etc. look colorful and 'big-time'. And make no mistake about it, many of these traveling shows are quite small time (I was at one about 3 years ago with my little cousin that had no more than a strong-man, a few clowns, an (albeit hot) trapeze artist and some horses, but we still paid 15e quid in), the difference is these small time events present themselves in such a way that the people, or marks, of the town in question are willing to head along, buy a ticket, buy some candy floss, get a picture with the clown, etc. The parallels here with wrestling are obvious.

So, Cannibal is correct when he states that Irish promotions lack ambition, but I would add that in many cases they lack basic cop-on.

One question I put to him is this; in order for such an Irish brand to succeed in the long-term, wouldn't it be necessary to create Irish stars that would draw? I'm not sure the talent is there. The only "marketable" Irish stars that spring to my mind are Sheamus O'Shaunessy, Fergal Devitt, Rebecca Knox, Mad Man Manson and Ross Browne, and from that list (admittedly just from the top of my head), two have found full-time jobs abroad and are unlikely to return in the foreseeable future, one will likely return to working abroad if and when she recovers from injury (she may already have done so), one is inactive and the other is in Simon Rochford’s politburo. The only way to convince any of these stars to return or emerging stars to stay would be to offer them a full-time job here with a decent wage, and to do this would mean building a strong Irish territory. My question, Michael, is can this be done on this small island with its small population?

Getting back on topic; I regret to echo some of the points made earlier, but as much respect as I have for many of the guys at CPW, since starting in 2006 the company has failed to move past the GAA clubs of Dublin’s less-affluent suburbs. This is not necessarily a bad thing. NWA-I, it appears, exists solely as a launching ground for the careers of its wrestlers, and as the success of Devitt, Knox and some others has illustrated, has done an effective job. Its shows, it seems, are merely a formality with which to give its roster experience to test their skills in front of a live audience and hone their craft. This is not meant as a knock at all to NWA-I (and for my money they have the best trained guys in the country), and as such I would see no harm at all in CPW attempting to follow its model. But as Michael has pointed out, it is unlikely to conquer the Irish scene with its current format. I would love it if I was proven wrong.

The Cannibal

I'd actually agree with most of what you said product wise and actually think AWR is probably the best thing the Irish scene has got going at the moment but it seems to be on a model of running tours for live gates much like All Star in England. They are good shows no doubt, and well presented and there is nothing wrong with that model but from the way it is presented, you have minimal interest in establishing a brand.

Things like having "American" on your posters suggest you are targeting the casual passer by rather than a long term fan and unless you are planning a name change in the future or reverting to the NLW moniker, I don't see you establishing yourself as "European" and pushing for a fan base with a longer attention span than the one you have now which you will have to market to all over again if you return to an area. I have no doubt you are making money though and that it is a succesful model business wise.

Dublin I think is underestimated. Yes, it has had a lot of crap shows but those shows have been before usually around 100-400 fans at most which hasn't exactly spoiled the market I think. 99% of Dublin doesn't even know the scene exists. On top of this, most Dublin shows have been confined to the northside or city centre with very few venturing onto the southside. One promoter once gave me an excuse that this was "NWA territory" which is crap since they never really venture past Bray and hardly touch south Dublin for shows. There is unexploited potential all across Dublin, it just needs a fresh and consistent approach. There are a million and a half people in the greater Dublin area, are you telling me you can't find a segment of a million and a half people to market to?

But I am most definitely a fan of what you guys are doing and look forward to seeing what your future holds. I just think there is room for something different that will challenge the conventional of wrestling promotion.

SuperWoody101

Loving this topic, some great reading. I don't know much about indy wrestling in Ireland so this is great reading.

The Cannibal

the flananator wrote: »

One question I put to him is this; in order for such an Irish brand to succeed in the long-term, wouldn't it be necessary to create Irish stars that would draw? I'm not sure the talent is there. The only "marketable" Irish stars that spring to my mind are Sheamus O'Shaunessy, Fergal Devitt, Rebecca Knox, Mad Man Manson and Ross Browne, and from that list (admittedly just from the top of my head), two have found full-time jobs abroad and are unlikely to return in the foreseeable future, one will likely return to working abroad if and when she recovers from injury (she may already have done so), one is inactive and the other is in Simon Rochford’s politburo. The only way to convince any of these stars to return or emerging stars to stay would be to offer them a full-time job here with a decent wage, and to do this would mean building a strong Irish territory. My question, Michael, is can this be done on this small island with its small population?

You are quite correct. Any long term brand needs stars and stars can be created if the right creative power and exposure element is behind them. Now the obstacle that most promotions have is that they lack the exposure element. The names you mentioned aren't really stars. You might get 10-20 guys who'd actually pay to see them on name alone if you're lucky.

The way you make a star is you keep all information about them in the spotlight and without the benefit of TV you have to improvise. This information keeps the public informed and the desired effect is for this information to snowball into a fan following. SOS is probably the only guy who has had a "star" push behind him and that was mostly on the back of Whiplash TV and TV3/RTE appearences. He had the time invested in him and he started to get a name of sorts but then understandably went on to greener pastures. SOS was also a lot smarter than given credit for as well and I think had a large hand in marketing himself more than most wrestlers do over here.

Despite this, promoters shouldn't be afraid to try and elevate someone into public attention. It may turn them into a revolving door and unofficial feeder territory to Japan and the US for a short time, but do it often enough and outlooks begin to change.

Imports would be a neccessary evil for the short term due to few on the Irish scene actually fitting the profile and look of a wrestler as mentioned by the AWR guy, but if you established a brand, you would attract the right kind of Irish man into the business. The next diamond in the rough is always waiting to be polished. Hell, Heyman even made stars out of talentless hacks because the situation required it sometimes, you just need the right stage.

To effectively create that stage we really need to stop thinking of it as "just Ireland". The world these days is getting smaller and smaller by the minute and there is potential to create an international following without even leaving the country these days. For someone who has an understanding of modern technology and the shifts of the global wrestling stage, there is a lot to be exploited.

It is possible. It will be very, very hard work but the desire to do that work comes with that key word "ambition".

the flananator

The Cannibal wrote: »

You are quite correct. Any long term brand needs stars and stars can be created if the right creative power and exposure element is behind them. Now the obstacle that most promotions have is that they lack the exposure element. The names you mentioned aren't really stars. You might get 10-20 guys who'd actually pay to see them on name alone if you're lucky.

The way you make a star is you keep all information about them in the spotlight and without the benefit of TV you have to improvise. This information keeps the public informed and the desired effect is for this information to snowball into a fan following. SOS is probably the only guy who has had a "star" push behind him and that was mostly on the back of Whiplash TV and TV3/RTE appearences. He had the time invested in him and he started to get a name of sorts but then understandably went on to greener pastures. SOS was also a lot smarter than given credit for as well and I think had a large hand in marketing himself more than most wrestlers do over here.

Despite this, promoters shouldn't be afraid to try and elevate someone into public attention. It may turn them into a revolving door and unofficial feeder territory to Japan and the US for a short time, but do it often enough and outlooks begin to change.

Imports would be a neccessary evil for the short term due to few on the Irish scene actually fitting the profile and look of a wrestler as mentioned by the AWR guy, but if you established a brand, you would attract the right kind of Irish man into the business. The next diamond in the rough is always waiting to be polished. Hell, Heyman even made stars out of talentless hacks because the situation required it sometimes, you just need the right stage.

To effectively create that stage we really need to stop thinking of it as "just Ireland". The world these days is getting smaller and smaller by the minute and there is potential to create an international following without even leaving the country these days. For someone who has an understanding of modern technology and the shifts of the global wrestling stage, there is a lot to be exploited.

It is possible. It will be very, very hard work but the desire to do that work comes with that key word "ambition".

I couldn't agree more.

To clarify, when I mentioned SOS, Devitt etc., I was not suggesting that they would draw crowds here off the bat; you are quite right in saying their names would attract 10-20 people. What I am saying, to build on your point, is that these are the kinds of talent that should have the "right creative power and exposure element is behind them". With the right promotion, these are the kinds of people who could become marketable 'stars' for wrestling promotion x. And indeed, Heyman's method of hiding the negatives and highlighting the positives would of course be important e.g. keep SOS away from 20 minute technical matches and promos where he is required to do more than throw out a catch-phrase like "I am the Irish curse....aaarrrrgghhh!" before hulking up, if you get my meaning.

The greatest problem facing Irish wrestling in my opinion is that, if we consider CPW Northside a separate promotion from CPW, then we have 7 different organizations or banners operating on this island;

* NWA Ireland
* Irish Whip Wrestling
* No Limit Wrestling
* Celtic Pro Wrestling
* CPW:NS
* Pro Wrestling Ulster
* Ulster Championship Wrestling (there are rumors Stevy is bringing it back)

Whether you accept the inclusion of CPW:NS or UCW in that list doesn't really affect the point I'm trying to get across; that there are too many small, ineffective groups operating here and saturating the market with a substandard product in many cases!

In order for an Irish territory to work, you would need, I think, a kind of "super-promotion", pooling together the resources and unique strong-points of each company. For example, hypothetically, NWA-I could handle the training. NLW could handle the promoting (they do a fantastic job of this. For example, when IWW used to run the Moat, they never filled it. Sometimes there would be as little as 40 people in the building. Since NLW have started running the venue, it has been full every night. Both brands said "wrestling" on the marquee, but one was better promoted than the other, simple as.) IWW (again, this is hypothetical, we all know Simon would never merge with his rivals) could handle the TV side of things. PWU could help to organize and promote the events of "super-promotion x" up North. I'm sure CPW could contribute in many areas also. Moreover, perhaps Ross Browne or (dare I say his name? Well, we are talking hypothetically here) Blake Norton could open a school in Cork and handle the promoting of things down South. When one promotion try’s to do all of these things, it overreaches itself and does nothing properly.

As for the cards themselves, they would feature the cream from all the aforementioned (but now theoretically defunct) leagues. This would create a kind of super-roster and would give the respective booker (whoever he/she may be) the best and most talent to work with. This would mean that the promotion would not have to rely on substandard wrestlers, often graduating from their respective school out of desperation on the company's part. We've all been to shows and thought "that guy just shouldn't be a wrestler". I could give you several examples on the Irish scene but it would be unfair to do so here. To a large extent I think NLW has broken tremendous ground in this respect by bringing wrestlers from all over together, but now sadly seem content to push Scotty 2 Hotty ahead of say Robbie Morrisey (who could get amazing heat if his Finglas knacker gimmick was pushed properly).

Fozzy

the flananator wrote: »

one will likely return to working abroad if and when she recovers from injury (she may already have done so)

Just to give an update on Rebecca Knox, she did work some NWA Ireland shows this year and was booked for some American shows recently. She no-showed those shows though and by the looks of it the promoters and fans were very annoyed about it. I think one of the promoters (might have been with Shimmer) said that he just got a message from a friend of hers saying that she doesn't want to wrestle anymore or something along those lines

To add to this discussion now, I think there's three distinct groups of fans that Irish promotions can appeal to. There's the kids, practically all of them fans of WWE who will get into a show if there's guys who look like stars who can connect with the audience. There's the "hardcore" fans, mainly young men who are fans of ROH and Japan and who appreciate good wrestling. And there's the older WWE and casual fans who seem to be more interested when there's a former star appearing at an Irish show and don't take the Irish guys as seriously (bit of a generalisation, but I do think that the description covers a lot of people)

Now, the thing is that there aren't that many of the "hardcore" fans in Ireland. ROH is a niche product in the US and over here it's a niche product in a niche market. So aiming for these fans can be a waste of money as there are not enough of them to pack the house every show. And unless you're putting on some good matches on every show then these fans aren't going to stick around all the time

The older casual fan is a tough one to market to as well because they're used to their larger-than-life stars and the many skinny guys on the Irish scene are not going to capture these fans' imagination. Unless you create some real captivating wrestlers then these fans won't be coming to every show

And then there's the kids. I think that this is the real lucrative market for any Irish promotion looking to do good business and make a big impact. I've been to a good few Irish shows in the last few years and it seems that every show has more kids there than the last one. I think that WWE and Cena are to thank for this. There's a whole new generation of wrestling fans coming through and their parents will bring them to any wrestling show. The bonus with this group is that you get their uneducated (wrestling-wise) parents' money too

If you have some guys with big personalities who can keep it simple (which is sometimes lacking at shows I've seen) then you can really turn the kids into fans

Of course, there's room for all three groups and it's about getting the right mix. There's also fans who don't fit into the three categories. But I do think that any Irish promotion thinking that they'll make it big without marketing towards children is playing a game that they're going to lose

There does seem to be a lack of advertising too. Especially with the websites. If one of the promotions set up a child-friendly website I think that it would be a great step for them

Anyway, didn't think I'd have that much to say when I started out. This has been discussed intelligently so far, I'll try split it off to its own thread. Just a word of warning though, if this descends into the sort of discussion that used to take place here in the past (and I'm sure some of you know what I'm talking about) then the thread will be locked. So no promotion bashing for the sake of it please

the flananator

Fozzy wrote: »

Just to give an update on Rebecca Knox, she did work some NWA Ireland shows this year and was booked for some American shows recently. She no-showed those shows though and by the looks of it the promoters and fans were very annoyed about it. I think one of the promoters (might have been with Shimmer) said that he just got a message from a friend of hers saying that she doesn't want to wrestle anymore or something along those lines

Hmm very interesting thanks for the update. Any word on Fergal's knee?

Fozzy wrote: »

Of course, there's room for all three groups

Gotta disagree here on the basis that I agree with what you say here:

Fozzy wrote: »

There's the kids, practically all of them fans of WWE who will get into a show if there's guys who look like stars who can connect with the audience

and here:

Fozzy wrote: »

Unless you create some real captivating wrestlers then these fans won't be coming to every show

To explain; it’s my belief that the only way to create a strong roster of credible stars, from the undercard to the upper card, would be the creation of one, strong Irish roster. I won't name names because it would be unfair to do so, but during the opener of the IWW card in the NBA on Saturday, there were at least two guys who, in my opinion, looked ridiculous and were a bad reflection on the image of the company. Now keeping Fozzy's warning in mind I won't go on a rant about IWW here or the wrestlers in question, as to be fair this is a problem shared by almost every Irish promotion and the only reason I'm drawing attention to the IWW example is because its fresh in my mind. Compare this to the opener of the NLW show in the Moat a few months back between Georgie Mac and Paul Tracey, two muscular good-looking veterans who knew exactly how to work the crowd and put on a sound match. NLW were able to do this because of its wide roster featuring NWA-I guys like Tracey and NLW guys like George.

To expand on my earlier point; when one promotion trys to do everything, it does everything ineffectively. For example, IWW has done a tremendous job of getting itself on TV. Unfortunately, I'm not sure it has a strong enough undercard to warrant its deal with Buzz. But if IWW had the entire pool of Irish talent at its disposal, it could have a great show. E.g. Manson, Mandrake, Bingo Ballance, Vic Viper and Red Vinny from IWW, Joey Cabray, Anthony Idol and Georgie Mac from NLW, Sean Brennan, Paddy Morrow, Robbie Morrisey, Phil Boyd and Paul Tracey from NWA-I, Insano and D4 from CPW, Dunkan Disorderly from the North. Now there would be a varied and talented roster with which to market to a TV audience.

cabray

The Cannibal wrote: »

I'd actually agree with most of what you said product wise and actually think AWR is probably the best thing the Irish scene has got going at the moment but it seems to be on a model of running tours for live gates much like All Star in England. They are good shows no doubt, and well presented and there is nothing wrong with that model but from the way it is presented, you have minimal interest in establishing a brand.

Things like having "American" on your posters suggest you are targeting the casual passer by rather than a long term fan and unless you are planning a name change in the future or reverting to the NLW moniker, I don't see you establishing yourself as "European" and pushing for a fan base with a longer attention span than the one you have now which you will have to market to all over again if you return to an area. I have no doubt you are making money though and that it is a succesful model business wise.

Dublin I think is underestimated. Yes, it has had a lot of crap shows but those shows have been before usually around 100-400 fans at most which hasn't exactly spoiled the market I think. 99% of Dublin doesn't even know the scene exists. On top of this, most Dublin shows have been confined to the northside or city centre with very few venturing onto the southside. One promoter once gave me an excuse that this was "NWA territory" which is crap since they never really venture past Bray and hardly touch south Dublin for shows. There is unexploited potential all across Dublin, it just needs a fresh and consistent approach. There are a million and a half people in the greater Dublin area, are you telling me you can't find a segment of a million and a half people to market to?

But I am most definitely a fan of what you guys are doing and look forward to seeing what your future holds. I just think there is room for something different that will challenge the conventional of wrestling promotion.

With all respect I feel you couldnt be more wrong, Its called American Wrestling Rampage because wrestling is American as apple pie. Im sure if someone was promoting, for example the Irish windsurfing championships, it would maybe garner more interest if called the American windsurfing championship etc, Most companies here have made themselves too regional which is something even with NLW we tried to stay away from.
You say im tageting only casual fans with American on the poster ? Of course i am, Wrestling fans will come to shows because they are fans and they want to see wrestling. its our aim to get the casual fan to shows and make them fans by the time its over.Can it not become a established Brand because we have used "American" in our title ? All Star is a strong brand thats why it can promoted 20 shows some months drawing no less than 700 to a show however its promoted as "big time American Wrestling" All star is by far the top promotion in Europe ( I know some may argue with me on this however their figures speak for themselves)

As for Dublin, Yes shows are seen by 100 to 400 people however how may crappy shows have been promoted over the past 6 years. Dublin Venues are expensive, Its very hard to promoted as many shops wont let you do posters etc. People in Dublin are spoiled for choice Let alone the fact that WWE are almost always set to do a show in Dublin its hard to get a family to fork out money for another wrestling show,
Overheads to promote shows in Dublin are high and chances are you can only draw 200 to 400 people which will not cover costs.
You cannot make a wrestler a star without TV on a good channel, It goes hand in hand, All stars were made by TV. Its the main reason many of the MMA companies in the States who are trying to be the next UFC are failing. SOS did well as he had many friends in Media who were willing to help him get his face out there.

The Cannibal

cabray wrote: »

With all respect I feel you couldnt be more wrong, Its called American Wrestling Rampage because wrestling is American as apple pie. Im sure if someone was promoting, for example the Irish windsurfing championships, it would maybe garner more interest if called the American windsurfing championship etc, Most companies here have made themselves too regional which is something even with NLW we tried to stay away from.
You say im tageting only casual fans with American on the poster ? Of course i am, Wrestling fans will come to shows because they are fans and they want to see wrestling. its our aim to get the casual fan to shows and make them fans by the time its over.Can it not become a established Brand because we have used "American" in our title ? All Star is a strong brand thats why it can promoted 20 shows some months drawing no less than 700 to a show however its promoted as "big time American Wrestling" All star is by far the top promotion in Europe ( I know some may argue with me on this however their figures speak for themselves)

As for Dublin, Yes shows are seen by 100 to 400 people however how may crappy shows have been promoted over the past 6 years. Dublin Venues are expensive, Its very hard to promoted as many shops wont let you do posters etc. People in Dublin are spoiled for choice Let alone the fact that WWE are almost always set to do a show in Dublin its hard to get a family to fork out money for another wrestling show,
Overheads to promote shows in Dublin are high and chances are you can only draw 200 to 400 people which will not cover costs.
You cannot make a wrestler a star without TV on a good channel, It goes hand in hand, All stars were made by TV. Its the main reason many of the MMA companies in the States who are trying to be the next UFC are failing. SOS did well as he had many friends in Media who were willing to help him get his face out there.

Wrestling is American but it doesn't mean you have to be American in style and promotion for it to succeed. The Chinese invented the gun, but everyone uses that today and have made their own improvements on the original gun powder model. Just because the Chinese model can kill, doesn't mean it's the best that can be achieved. Same goes for wrestling, improvements can always be made on an industry that is slumping.

I agree that all the companies have made themselves too regional: Irish Whip Wrestling, Celtic Pro, Northside, Ulster Championship Wrestling, NWA Ireland

However, whilst I agree with that, I don't believe branding yourself as American is any less regional. It has its own drawbacks to be American in a European market if you are thinking long term. You are putting a ceiling on your head that you may have to make an effort to remove should you decide at a later date to become a "European" promotion. That is, if that is even a long term goal of yours. Drawing decent crowds is all well and good until you start to think "What else can I do?". I just feel the American tag is an unneccessary handcuff. You could easily still poster it as NLW but with America in a sub slogan beneath the heading with a US flag or something in there.

All Star is a good business model and AWR is also a good business model. They will make money and they will entertain but that model can only go so far in terms of expansion. How many years now have All Star been promoting at the exact same level? People breeze in and out, do their dates and move on and All Star bring in another lot. There is no effort made to take it onto the next level.

I am not knocking the way you promote, I respect it if anything. It's hard enough to promote a profitable organisation as it is. But as a fan, I want something that is more engaging than house tours. I want to be able to follow everything as it progresses. Your promotion framework caters to the fan of the wrestling "show" but it doesn't cater to the fan of the wrestling "product" which is something that independents all over the world have conflict with. Show Vs Product. What makes the "product" more lucrative long term is that in the end "show" fans will probably end up going to it anyway making for a larger audience.

Probably the closest European example of what I'd like to see achieved is the FWA. I know that all went to ****, but for a short time it was brimming with potential. Where they went wrong is that they tried to expand too fast and didn't keep their books in order. They put out a solid product and pursued a fan base larger than the average wrestling fan and managed to make recognised names BEFORE having TV just by being smart about their promoting.

TV is a big help but not the be all. Technology is moving at a rapid rate and there are now viable alternatives. High quality streaming for instance is something that TV channels have started to shift towards. I have 4oD installed on my computer which is the Channel 4 expansion and it is an interesting look into the future. Mobile phones are also becoming far more sophisticated. As technology moves forward more media options become available. We live in a world where you can't take 2 steps without coming across some sort of media device and so few of them are exploited to their full potential.

I was by no means denouncing your promotion style, simply calling for an alternative for people of a like mind to myself. You cater to a profitable niche of the market but I am part of a different section that can also be profitable and has no one fighting for its attention.

Fozzy

the flananator wrote: »

Hmm very interesting thanks for the update. Any word on Fergal's knee?

It was a sprained ankle, he'll be wrestling in the tournament for the vacant IWGP Junior Heavyweight title in early July. He gets injured at the worst times

Whiplash

This is a great thread and lots of great arguments and points. In my opinion Irelanding having so many wrstling promtions can only be a good thing for wrestling fans. Its nice to have good variety. Also Competition can help push a promotion to do great things. I know this is a huge comparison but remember how good wwf/wwe was when it was competing with wcw? At the moment as I see and I may be wrong but Iww over the years has been Irelands top Promotion. I think the only threat at the moment to Iww is Nlw AWR tours. Like it or not people will pay to see former wwe and other well known guys, and up until this year Iww was the only company bringing in some of these big names. Now some may say the big name guys take away from irish talent. I'm not sure if thats 100% true. I was in attendance at the last donnycarney show for iww and more people where intrested in getting mansons autograph and bingo ballance autograph than Eugene! There is a following for some of the irish talent. Another thing that Iww has going for it is that they do shows around the country on a regular basis. I'm not sure if cpw or the rest have ventured out of dublin, however i may be wrong. I know nwl have done shows in nass but other than there have they done anything outside of dublin that didnt involve AWR? I myself if i see a poster for a wrestling show, any wresting show i'll go along and see because as a wrestling fan i'm interested to see whats out there on offer. I would go to see iww cpw nlw nwa-I any wrestling promotion that will bring shows to my local area or an area close to me. So in my opinion if a promtion can do shows all over the country it will increase its fan base greatly. And as someone else said about the world getting smaller and trying to go international. If any promotion had a half decent camera and record matches or even full shows and post them on youtube,megavideo, dailymotion or thier official website it will get the attention of international wrestling fans.

flahavaj

Whiplash wrote: »

If any promotion had a half decent camera and record matches or even full shows and post them on youtube,megavideo, dailymotion or thier official website it will get the attention of international wrestling fans.

You'd need a ring as well I suppose.:pac:

jeffk

flahavaj wrote: »

You'd need a ring as well I suppose.:pac:

They had a ring just transportation problems

Ayden316

the flananator wrote: »

To expand on my earlier point; when one promotion trys to do everything, it does everything ineffectively. For example, IWW has done a tremendous job of getting itself on TV. Unfortunately, I'm not sure it has a strong enough undercard to warrant its deal with Buzz. But if IWW had the entire pool of Irish talent at its disposal, it could have a great show. E.g. Manson, Mandrake, Bingo Ballance, Vic Viper and Red Vinny from IWW, Joey Cabray, Anthony Idol and Georgie Mac from NLW, Sean Brennan, Paddy Morrow, Robbie Morrisey, Phil Boyd and Paul Tracey from NWA-I, Insano and D4 from CPW, Dunkan Disorderly from the North. Now there would be a varied and talented roster with which to market to a TV audience.

I could very happily say i would love to see that show. we've seen in the past that promotions can work together(ie Nwa PWU and CpW working on NLW shows) And i could very happily say ALL 4 of these promotions could work to having a HUGE SUPER SHOW(I could guarantee all 4 WOULD defo do this) that would beat any in the past but the fact of the matter is for this to work so ppl would come from all over ireland the 5th, IwW, would have to be involved, and i can very confidently say Simon Rocheford WOULD NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS DO THIS. In his mind he believes he is the best promotor and IwW the best promotion. For a while this was true but NLW/AWR and taking over thick and fast. NLW has a very healthy relationship with EVERY irish promotion other than IwW. And that is simply because Simon has burned so many bridges with Ex IwW guys that if ALL 4 other promotions did work togeher with a common goal that SUPER PROMOTION would wipe IwW from the face of ireland. THAT IS FACT.

nlw_coleman

I truly believe that until someone actually gets out there and starts to promote, nobody knows exactly how much time, cost and effort needs to go into it.
Not only that, but also the many, many bumps in the road along the way that will always arise. There's been many good points made in this discussion but it in the real world, the few fans that want an all mighty irish product are just that...a few fans. If Ireland is to have a successful promotion, then of course it has to be American-ised. If it's not, then the casual fan won't go and see it. Some will, but not the majority. Does anybody actually believe that 1500 people in Killareney would have gone to see a show in the INEC called Irish Wrestling Alliance for example with several unknown wrestlers from Ireland? No, of course not. Maybe 150 people would have but in the "long term", and that's a term being used alot, that's not going to get Irish wrestling ANYWHERE!

The reason 1500 people sold out the INEC weeks in advance was simply because what we were offering was BIG TIME AMERICAN STYLE WRESTLING. Our poster featured Chris Masters, Gangrel, Test, The Sandman and other established names. These are the names people came to see. But they left that evening remembering names like Paddy Morrow, Sean "Maxer" Brennan, Joey Cabray and Dunkan Disorderly. Morrow in particular got hugely over in every single town we stopped in. And when AWR return to those same venues, people who remember the likes of Morrow will look forward to seeing him perform again. You see, this IS long term strategy and not just "making profit in the short term" as someone put it, i believe to be Canibal.
This means that we can mix the talent of our own country and the established stars of TV Land and deliver a far superior product than anything else. In order to put asses in the seats, people need to be able to see bonafied stars that they recognise. By adding these names with home grown names, it makes someone stand up and realise "hey, that Paddy Morrow guy is really good and he's from Ireland". Then, in the LONG TERM, that same person may see Paddy Morrow's name on a bill for a smaller show and hey presto, that's an extra person at that show and an extra person with an interest in the Irish Independent Wrestling scene.

But all this takes time. And that's what we're attempting to do with established talent, home grown talent, superior production values to anyone else (the basketball arena show in October will feature big screens, a proper entrance and professional lighting). Its a work -in- progress to establish Irish stars. But contrary to what many forum members here seem to believe, that is infact what we are attempting to do. But you have to give the casual fan a reason to buy that ticket in the first place. They go to see Test, but they come out remembering Paddy Morrow. WWE won't put out a card full of guys just out of OVW of FCW on Raw. Instead they'll put maybe 1 or 2 on the same show as Triple H, Shawn Michaels etc. The fans go to see HBK and HHH but they leave remembering the new guy they saw that night. That's how a product is made. Not overnight, but over time.

On a separate note, I think it was Flan who spoke about the circus. I have a problem with wrestling being compared to a circus haha... its a sore point for me because in 2002 while trying to promote with IWW at the time, a circus was in town at the same time as us.
A circus is permitted, 99% of the time, by the council, to poster whereever they like, within the area where the circus is visiting. So they can poster lamps, walls etc. So in theory, If a circus comes to Tallaght, then its pretty easy for a circus promoter to make sure that everyone who passes through Tallaght knows there's a circus because its mentioned everywhere. Not to mention that big colourful tent in the local park Wrestling has to rely on the few shops that will allow their window to be partially covered with a Wrestling poster. And just how long will they leave it up? Its tough for any indy wrestling company to promote their product, with or without money to be honest. Obviously, in particular, without.

On the theory of all the promotions getting together... it would never work in my opinion. That would be simply a case of too many indians and not enough chiefs.
What we do at NLW is about as close as I think we will ever get to that idea. We work closely with NWA Ireland and did work very closely with Ulster Championship Wrestling until it's demise. We also had a good working relationship with CPW although that has since deteriorated (on good terms i may add). If Everyone was to to try to promote a super show together, it would see endless problems which would probably result in it being a one time, terrible show. Which is bad for Irish Wrestling in the...... LONG TERM

the flananator

Agreed, the "super-promotion" ideal is a lofty one with too many egos involved to work, and the NLW model is likely as close as we will get to it.

But I find it curious that earlier in the discusion,"AWR Office", whomever they may be, lamented the use of "skinny kids with no gimmick", and here, Jamie, you describe Paddy Morrow as one of your most popular stars? Now don't get me wrong here. I am a big, big fan of Paddy's work. Paddy knows that. He's probably the best worker active on the Irish circuit today. But my question is, what is his gimmick? What is his unique selling point in the context of "BIG STYLE AMERICAN WRESTLING"?

nlw_coleman

Good point Flan which i expected someone to make. Wrestling shows need variety. What AWR_Office was referring to in an earlier post are shows entirely made up of "skinny young looking wrestlers with no gimmicks". Morrow (who i hope im not insulting...ah he knows he's skinny haha) could fall into this category but he is a unique character on our shows because he is the smalllest wrestler on the card. That's why he stands out. He's the exception to the rule if you would like to put it that way.

What Morrow offers the fan that a lot of other wrestlers of his size don't, (in this country) is an amazing understanding of how to tell a story in a match, how to connect with the crowd and on top of that is arguably the most talented Irish grown performer in ring today. You can do 12 450 splashes in a match but if you don't have that connection with the audience then you have nothing. Morrow has it all.

So to sum it up, Morrow's "gimmick" is that he's the odd one out... he's the smallest and therefore comes across as a natural underdog. But his performance gets him over. Would his performance get over on a card full of people with a physique like Morrows? Maybe not. That's where alot of shows fall short. Its a lack of creative thinking. We have a nice mix of different sizes, ring styles etc and always will and in the "Long Term" that's good business. Variety is afterall, the spice of life. And no matter how many smaller talent is booked on any given AWR show in the future, the show's will never fall into the category of a show made up of gimmick-less young looking skinny wrestlers because we will always book shows with the word "Variety" in mind.

AWR_Office nor myself are dis-respecting any of these "Smaller" wrestlers in this country. We would infact hope to work with many in the future and have done in the past. There are numerous who have ALOT of talent (ie Robbie Morrissey, Insano, Thunder & Lightning, Red Vinny etc.) but there needs to be variety to make these talents stand out. Which works with Morrow in our case. Intelligent booking and forward thinking is needed to get any talent over, but in-particular smaller talent because as was stated earlier, casual fans have to be the target audience and casual fans want larger than life characters.

rossie1977

the thing that impressed me most about the american rampage show in castlebar was the production values, it was top class imo and certainly not something i expected to see waiting outside the TF before the doors opened