Are multiple referendums undemocratic?

dresden8

obl wrote: »

Source?

Since you're not so well informed I suppose you'll be a no voter next time so.

dresden8

obl wrote: »

That's source has nothing of his intentions for the naval unit.

And France already has nukes. Apparently he likes to eat babies too.

Seriously? You couldn't see this bit? A definite no voter next time so.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy has something of a track record of dropping bombshells at Franco-German summits. During a meeting near Berlin last September, Sarkozy caused German Chancellor Angela Merkel's jaw to drop by offering Germany nuclear weapons (more...).

Last week's meeting between the two leaders (more...) in the Bavarian town of Straubing was no exception, SPIEGEL has learned. This time, Sarkozy, who has had no shortage of big ideas since taking office in May 2007, told the Germans about his plans to propose the creation of a European naval unit during France's presidency of the Council of the European Union, which begins on July 1.

Under Sarkozy's plan, the German Navy is supposed to contribute frigates and logistics units to an aircraft carrier battle group which will sail under a European flag. The aircraft carrier itself will, according to the plan, be supplied by the United Kingdom, however, as France's prestige aircraft carrier, the Charles de Gaulle, is frequently out of service for repairs. Sarkozy will decide about the construction of a second aircraft carrier only in 2012 or so, as there is currently not enough money available for the French armed forces.

tolosenc

dresden8 wrote: »

Since you're not so well informed I suppose you'll be a no voter next time so.

I've been in Canada for the last while. Excuse me for my lack of exposure to European hearsay.

If anyone is actually informed about the treaty, they'd vote yes.

tolosenc

I saw that bit, but I really don't see where it says what he intends to do with a European navy.

Sarko is a hothead - I wouldn't take him to literally.

dresden8

obl wrote: »

Sarko is a hothead - I wouldn't take him to literally.

Sarko is the President of France. He has nuclear weapons at his disposal. He is taking over the EU presidency.

Your own statement should send shivers down your spine.

tolosenc

dresden8 wrote: »

Sarko is the President of France. He has nuclear weapons at his disposal. He is taking over the EU presidency.

Your own statement should send shivers down your spine.

He doesn't just click his fingers as president of either France or Europe. There are strict procedures in place.

Do you actually understand how either European or French political systems work?

dresden8

obl wrote: »

. There are strict procedures in place.

Do you actually understand how either European or French political systems work?

Strict procedures like Lisbon has to be ratified by all 27 countries or it falls?

The hypocrisy of the Yes side astounds

tolosenc

The lack of understanding of the basics, the conspiracy theories, and the blatant lies of the No campaign astound me too.

It does not say "27 countries" anywhere in the text. It says "all countries" - whether Ireland is one of them, it's up for us to decide.

IRLConor

dresden8 wrote: »

Strict procedures like Lisbon has to be ratified by all 27 countries or it falls?

Who said that isn't going to happen?

They're pressing ahead with ratification in the other countries so that they can then know what their options are. If Ireland turns out to be the only country that says no, then they negotiate with us to see what they can do to change our mind. If any of the other countries yet to ratify it fail to do so then they'll take a different course of action.

The other countries pressing ahead to ratify the treaty doesn't mean that they're ignoring our vote.

dresden8 wrote: »

The hypocrisy of the Yes side astounds

The lack of basic knowledge of how the EU works that the No side has astounds.

dresden8

obl wrote: »

The lack of understanding of the basics, the conspiracy theories, and the blatant lies of the No campaign astound me too.

It does not say "27 countries" anywhere in the text. It says "all countries" - whether Ireland is one of them, it's up for us to decide.

That's a stretch too far. Even for the most rabid yes voter. And by the way we didn't decide to leave the EU. We decided not to ratify Lisbon. You're so badly informed that you must be a no voter.

dresden8

IRLConor wrote: »

Who said that isn't going to happen?

They're pressing ahead with ratification in the other countries so that they can then know what their options are. If Ireland turns out to be the only country that says no, then they negotiate with us to see what they can do to change our mind. If any of the other countries yet to ratify it fail to do so then they'll take a different course of action.

The other countries pressing ahead to ratify the treaty doesn't mean that they're ignoring our vote.



The lack of basic knowledge of how the EU works that the No side has astounds.

there have been several Euro types saying there will be no re-negotiation. We have to ratify. With the underlying sub-text of or else

How freaking democratic is that?

Scofflaw

dresden8 wrote: »

Sarko is the President of France. He has nuclear weapons at his disposal. He is taking over the EU presidency.

Your own statement should send shivers down your spine.

Are we talking about the same Sarkozy? He has fewer nuclear weapons than he did, though:

Sarkozy: France to cut nuke arsenal

Is this also the same guy who wants to reduce the French military, and scrap plans for nuclear subs?

cordially,
Scofflaw

dresden8

Scofflaw wrote: »

Are we talking about the same Sarkozy? He has fewer nuclear weapons than he did, though:

Sarkozy: France to cut nuke arsenal

Is this also the same guy who wants to reduce the French military, and scrap plans for nuclear subs?

cordially,
Scofflaw

He wants to cut expenditure on his own military and tap into other peoples, i.e the German and Uk navies as per the article. He wants to throw his weight around on the world stage without spending the money. I didn't say he was stupid, just a tosser.

Anyway, he can cut the French arsenal by giving some to the Germans, as per the article.

IRLConor

dresden8 wrote: »

there have been several Euro types saying there will be no re-negotiation. We have to ratify. With the underlying sub-text of or else

Talk is cheap. Let's see what they do.

dresden8 wrote: »

How freaking democratic is that?

Very, they get to vote on it.

dresden8

IRLConor wrote: »

Very, they get to vote on it.

What, they get to vote on how to screw us over because we displeased them?

That's a kind on democracy I suppose. Just not for us.

Scofflaw

dresden8 wrote: »

He wants to cut expenditure on his own military and tap into other peoples, i.e the German and Uk navies as per the article. He wants to throw his weight around on the world stage without spending the money. I didn't say he was stupid, just a tosser.

Anyway, he can cut the French arsenal by giving some to the Germans, as per the article.

So he's willing to put forces under joint control rather than solely French? And have a UK aircraft carrier as the mainstay of the naval unit? That's quite impressive for a Frenchman - de Gaulle would be spinning in his grave!

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

dresden8 wrote: »

What, they get to vote on how to screw us over because we displeased them?

That's a kind on democracy I suppose. Just not for us.

And we get to screw them over - which isn't democracy for them.

cordially,
Scofflaw

dresden8

Scofflaw wrote: »

So he's willing to put forces under joint control rather than solely French? And have a UK aircraft carrier as the mainstay of the naval unit? That's quite impressive for a Frenchman - de Gaulle would be spinning in his grave!

cordially,
Scofflaw

Well, I think it's fair to say the European big boys will control the whole thing. France, possibly? I don't see Cowen being given the option of sending the French and British navies to intervene in the latest Middle East crisis.

I suspect that we may end up as part of an exclusive club where we can go f**k ourselves if we try to rock the boat, as it were. A coalition of the willing, as it were.

No proof of course, but as I have said several times tonight, thus far and no further.

dresden8

Scofflaw wrote: »

And we get to screw them over - which isn't democracy for them.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Screw them over? Where have you been for the last week? We didn't screw them over. We expressed a preference.